MP3s to CD-R/RW...

[dkane360]

I understand this -- and I never do; but what I'm saying is, my pro CD recorder has the option and ability to adjust digital recording levels (which my previous consumer-grade Marantz didn't) and yet when burning MP3 files to a desktop folder and then to a CD-R via a computer, there's no way to "manipulate" these levels of an MP3...I was just wondering what we're actually HEARING when burning an MP3 file to CD-R/RW being that these files can't be adjusted without the proper software...

what you actually hear is the level that the studio set when it was mastered. your pro cd recorder has that option because its pro, for people who would need to adjust the levels. you don't need to adjust the levels as a consumer, which is why the marantz didnt have it.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

what you actually hear is the level that the studio set when it was mastered.

...or whatever "manipulation" whomever downloaded the file, from whatever source if a studio didn't provide it, was done to it, right?

your pro cd recorder has that option because its pro, for people who would need to adjust the levels. you don't need to adjust the levels as a consumer, which is why the marantz didnt have it.

That's not necessarily why the feature was left off the consumer grade recorder -- consumers even doing casual recording and burning could also utilize a system that allows tweaking of digital levels if they're burning from "quiet" digital sources like certain CDs; I believe the "pro" applications come in on the side of media able to be used and such, as the pro decks allow usage of all blank media, not just the copyright protected consumer grade "music/audio" CD-Rs...

 

[dkane360]

...or whatever "manipulation" whomever downloaded the file, from whatever source if a studio didn't provide it, was done to it, right?

right, I was just assuming the sources were legal

 

[BMXTRIX]

...or whatever "manipulation" whomever downloaded the file, from whatever source if a studio didn't provide it, was done to it, right?

This is the crux of everything you are discussing.

Understand that whoever made the recording, which may very well have been someone other than a studio, could use any number of thousands of tools to manipulate and destroy the original audio recording. Some people rip CDs at 64kbs, then someone else will re-encode it at 320kbs even though it doesn't improve the audio quality, they don't know. Some encoders are lousy, some are better. So, the encoder itself matters.

That's not necessarily why the feature was left off the consumer grade recorder -- consumers even doing casual recording and burning could also utilize a system that allows tweaking of digital levels if they're burning from "quiet" digital sources like certain CDs; I believe the "pro" applications come in on the side of media able to be used and such, as the pro decks allow usage of all blank media, not just the copyright protected consumer grade "music/audio" CD-Rs...

No, consumers may benefit from this if they have professional training and know-how to do it right, at which point they are no longer consumers. What you said isn't wrong, but is wrong for the industry. The industry makes consumer products to be simple, they make pro products to get more advanced tasks done.

Very occassionally, they even get it right.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

This is the crux of everything you are discussing.

Understand that whoever made the recording, which may very well have been someone other than a studio, could use any number of thousands of tools to manipulate and destroy the original audio recording. Some people rip CDs at 64kbs, then someone else will re-encode it at 320kbs even though it doesn't improve the audio quality, they don't know. Some encoders are lousy, some are better. So, the encoder itself matters.

Right; I understand this. I suppose what I wanted to know was what we were actually hearing when playing an MP3 -- who or what created it, etc. and why there wasn't a way to alter the original file's "signal levels" as we would with an outboard, standalone device like a CD recorder. However, as it's been explained and discussed, there would need to be certain software measures taken at the computer itself to manipulate these levels -- measures and features my CD Burner XP program doesn't appear to boast.

No, consumers may benefit from this if they have professional training and know-how to do it right, at which point they are no longer consumers. What you said isn't wrong, but is wrong for the industry. The industry makes consumer products to be simple, they make pro products to get more advanced tasks done.

Very occassionally, they even get it right.

Well, I wholeheartedly disagree a bit being that I have vast experience with consumer grade -- and now the pro grade -- recording decks; I see what you're saying about consumers needing some know-how in dealing with adjusting digital recording levels and such and at which point they "aren't consumers," which is a valid point, but I don't feel that's the only reason these features were left off consumer grade CD-R decks. I don't believe one needs "professional training" in order to know how to manipulate digital recording levels -- heck, it explains it very simply in my TASCAM's manual! -- but for the most part, there are discrepencies with recording media between these types of machines.

There are a plethora of other elements we can get into when describing and discussing the differences between consumer and pro grade recording gear, and these include special abilities to fade out a track in a custom time slip with pro recorders, fade in a track in the same method, and much more.

 

[BMXTRIX]

Right; I understand this. I suppose what I wanted to know was what we were actually hearing when playing an MP3 -- who or what created it, etc. and why there wasn't a way to alter the original file's "signal levels" as we would with an outboard, standalone device like a CD recorder. However, as it's been explained and discussed, there would need to be certain software measures taken at the computer itself to manipulate these levels -- measures and features my CD Burner XP program doesn't appear to boast.

I'm not su8re what burning program you have. If it was a freebie, then it's like any other bottom of the line consumer piece. It's important to understand, that your very next statement about consumer vs. pro gear applies to computer programs. While there are some free things which do remarkably well, when you start to pay for programs, the features you get improve significantly. At a basic 'easy' level, you get Nero Burning ROM which allows for fade in/fade out, normalization, de-hiss, de-click, and far more many features within their burning program via a long list of plug-ins.

Well, I wholeheartedly disagree a bit being that I have vast experience with consumer grade -- and now the pro grade -- recording decks; I see what you're saying about consumers needing some know-how in dealing with adjusting digital recording levels and such and at which point they "aren't consumers," which is a valid point, but I don't feel that's the only reason these features were left off consumer grade CD-R decks. I don't believe one needs "professional training" in order to know how to manipulate digital recording levels -- heck, it explains it very simply in my TASCAM's manual! -- but for the most part, there are discrepencies with recording media between these types of machines.

There are a plethora of other elements we can get into when describing and discussing the differences between consumer and pro grade recording gear, and these include special abilities to fade out a track in a custom time slip with pro recorders, fade in a track in the same method, and much more.

You may be misunderstanding my humor on this...

Consumers don't want CD players anymore. Consumers aren't buying them. The addition of tools which may be a niche tool, used on a niche product, creates a non-existent demand. While for a very (extremely!) small number of people, this may be useful, for the vast majority, they simply don't give a darn about it.

For those that DO care about it, at this point the vast majority have moved into digital editing on their PCs. So, the concept of copying a disc by using a dual deck with digital level control is basically a niche of a niche as it were. Useful for a very few, and utilized by far fewer, and done properly by manufacuturers even less.

Not that it is that hard to do properly, but to do it properly, track by track, takes an actual concious effort by the end user, and as it turns out, most end users seem to not actually be concious most of the time.

"Is your computer plugged in?"
"Plugged into what?"
"The wall."
"My computer didn't come with a wall."

Gotta watch out for those pesky end users!

 

[PearlcorderS701]

I'm not su8re what burning program you have.

I've stated several times that it's CD BURNER XP.

You may be misunderstanding my humor on this...

Consumers don't want CD players anymore. Consumers aren't buying them. The addition of tools which may be a niche tool, used on a niche product, creates a non-existent demand. While for a very (extremely!) small number of people, this may be useful, for the vast majority, they simply don't give a darn about it.

For those that DO care about it, at this point the vast majority have moved into digital editing on their PCs. So, the concept of copying a disc by using a dual deck with digital level control is basically a niche of a niche as it were. Useful for a very few, and utilized by far fewer, and done properly by manufacuturers even less.

Not that it is that hard to do properly, but to do it properly, track by track, takes an actual concious effort by the end user, and as it turns out, most end users seem to not actually be concious most of the time.

"Is your computer plugged in?"
"Plugged into what?"
"The wall."
"My computer didn't come with a wall."

Gotta watch out for those pesky end users!

Yes, I see what you're saying. I was merely pointing out the differences -- and pointing out to Kane as well -- between the implementation of pro and consumer grade CD recorders, citing the notion that media type is a primary discrepency.

In this day and age, as sad as it is, it's true...just about no one is using a CD player nor hooking one up to a standalone CD recorder (ironically, this comes at a time when companies like Onkyo continue to launch brand new single disc CD players, some of which are actually very high end in design and implementation) as it seems I am the last of a dying breed in that respect. But in my setup, I can manipulate and alter digital signals as quickly and easily as analog varieties thanks to my TASCAM's digital recording level controls (which are always set to "0.0dB" but I know they're there if I need them).

 

[TLS Guy]

I've stated several times that it's CD BURNER XP.



Yes, I see what you're saying. I was merely pointing out the differences -- and pointing out to Kane as well -- between the implementation of pro and consumer grade CD recorders, citing the notion that media type is a primary discrepency.

In this day and age, as sad as it is, it's true...just about no one is using a CD player nor hooking one up to a standalone CD recorder (ironically, this comes at a time when companies like Onkyo continue to launch brand new single disc CD players, some of which are actually very high end in design and implementation) as it seems I am the last of a dying breed in that respect. But in my setup, I can manipulate and alter digital signals as quickly and easily as analog varieties thanks to my TASCAM's digital recording level controls (which are always set to "0.0dB" but I know they're there if I need them).

Yes, you can change the level in the digital domain on your recorder, but it is not simply turning a knob.

The level of the digital signal may be controlled using the digital volume menu, as described below.
1. Call up the VOLUME option in the REC sub-menu (see “Operation basics” on page 15).
Push the MULTI JOG dial to enter the function on.
2. Rotate the MULTI JOG dial to adjust the input volume between -54dB and +18 dB (relative to the original input level).
There is also a -‹ setting which represents a complete signal cut. The display shows Vol> ---dB for the -‹ setting.
3. Press the MENU key or push the MULTI JOG dial to enter the setting and return to normal mode.

 

[BMXTRIX]

I've stated several times that it's CD BURNER XP.

Sorry, meant to say that I'm not at all familiar with your software. I just looked at it and it is...

Well, it's the equivalent of a bottom of the line consumer CD player. Probably the best analogy to what you have vs. what you are looking for, or at least asking about right here. If interested, there are certainly some much better software options available.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Sorry, meant to say that I'm not at all familiar with your software. I just looked at it and it is...

Well, it's the equivalent of a bottom of the line consumer CD player. Probably the best analogy to what you have vs. what you are looking for, or at least asking about right here. If interested, there are certainly some much better software options available.

*GULP* The program's THAT bad, huh? Oh well; I really just used it to do some casual burning on my desktop...

 

[3db]

There is a tool I used to rip CD's called "Free Rip" which I downloaded years ago that allows me to alter the levels as it rips. I can rip a CD with the levels louder or softer than the original. I experimented with this and purposely ripped a CD (forget which one it was now) and made it twice as loud as the orginal. Sounded like crap which I expected but it was fun to play just the same.


To get back to your question as to why MP3 verses audio tracks? Economics without quality loss. Since I already have the losses incurred as MP3 files (mind you I burn them at 320Mbps which is really good quality) it just makes more sense to me to cram more files on one medium with MP3s than it is to have 1 audio CD per artist. My shelf space for CDs/DVDs is running tight.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

There is a tool I used to rip CD's called "Free Rip" which I downloaded years ago that allows me to alter the levels as it rips. I can rip a CD with the levels louder or softer than the original. I experimented with this and purposely ripped a CD (forget which one it was now) and made it twice as loud as the orginal. Sounded like crap which I expected but it was fun to play just the same.


To get back to your question as to why MP3 verses audio tracks? Economics without quality loss. Since I already have the losses incurred as MP3 files (mind you I burn them at 320Mbps which is really good quality) it just makes more sense to me to cram more files on one medium with MP3s than it is to have 1 audio CD per artist. My shelf space for CDs/DVDs is running tight.

Okay...so in the second paragraph, you're basically saying you can fit a tremendously greater amount of MP3 files on a CD-R than just audio tracks, which would equate to 80 minutes of music, correct?

If so, that's what I thought the point of burning as MP3 files would be...

In my car player, the MP3 loaded CD-R didn't want to behave properly for some reason (although my JBL system in the car does read and play MP3 encoded discs, and the disc was finalized properly on my end) so I just burn everything as AUDIO CDs...

Essentially, when an MP3 is being burned as an "audio" file, or onto a CD-R, what is taking place...is the MP3 file being "altered" into something else to be "encoded" or "burned" as an "audio" file?

 

[TLS Guy]

Okay...so in the second paragraph, you're basically saying you can fit a tremendously greater amount of MP3 files on a CD-R than just audio tracks, which would equate to 80 minutes of music, correct?

If so, that's what I thought the point of burning as MP3 files would be...

In my car player, the MP3 loaded CD-R didn't want to behave properly for some reason (although my JBL system in the car does read and play MP3 encoded discs, and the disc was finalized properly on my end) so I just burn everything as AUDIO CDs...

Essentially, when an MP3 is being burned as an "audio" file, or onto a CD-R, what is taking place...is the MP3 file being "altered" into something else to be "encoded" or "burned" as an "audio" file?

You have not got the foundation of all of this, have you?

Any digital disc player is a computer, granted one with a defined role.

Like any computer, it can only handle files. So all CDs, data discs, DVDs DVD audio disc and BDs are set up in files.

Now a CD has a defined protocol with the files having a sampling rate of 44.1 kHz and a bit rate of 16. It also has a cue file. This file tells the player where a track begins and ends and the pauses if any between tacks and above all the order of play.

Now lets examine mp3 files that do not meet any defined disc format spec.

Lets take a CD and rip the tracks and convert them to 320 kb/sec mp3 files. Now 75% of the data is chucked overboard and so the file is smaller. That means more files and music can be burnt on this disc. The data however is still in files.

However these files can only be burnt as a data disc, which a standard CD player can not read. However a player that can read data discs can. These mp3 files can not be burnt as a CD because they do not meet CD spec.

Now after burning the data disc there is no cue file, so the files have no order.

Players differ in what they recognize as order. Most will accept tags, such 01-02-03-04 etc.

Now you don't describe how your car CD player misbehaves with mp3 data discs.

If it will not play any tracks without artifacts, then your program or burner is making too many errors and exceeding the error correction of your player.

If the problem is ordering of the files, then you need to find out what tags your player will recognize so you can tag your mp3 files to play in the order you want.

 

[3db]

What TLS is saying in a nutshell is that your player in the car is probably an older version of a player that could play earlier versions of mp3s or the unit is defunct and is not playing properly. If you can play your CD-R filled with MP3s on your DVD or Bluray plyer without fail, then there is something clearly wrong with your player in your car.

About the 80 minutes of music.....A CD-R full of MP3s (depending on the bit rate at which the MP3 was created ) should hold at least two hours worth of music.

 

[TLS Guy]

What TLS is saying in a nutshell is that your player in the car is probably an older version of a player that could play earlier versions of mp3s or the unit is defunct and is not playing properly. If you can play your CD-R filled with MP3s on your DVD or Bluray plyer without fail, then there is something clearly wrong with your player in your car.

About the 80 minutes of music.....A CD-R full of MP3s (depending on the bit rate at which the MP3 was created ) should hold at least two hours worth of music.

His player might be OK, but his files are tagged in a way his player can not understand.

There is no agreed protocol for tagging. Just about every player responds to alphabetical tagging and most to the common 01-02- etc. So it could be his burning program or his player that is the problem. I assume his burning program does not allow him to selects his tags, but it may. If it does he should experiment with A,B.C and O1-02-03. An 00 file will throw any player off and most will not follow 1-2-3.

This is where data files get tricky.

If your burning program and player can handle the same numbering system you are fine, if not there will be a problem. Believe it or not this issue has no agreed standard, so problems can and do occur.

 

[3db]

His player might be OK, but his files are tagged in a way his player can not understand.

There is no agreed protocol for tagging. Just about every player responds to alphabetical tagging and most to the common 01-02- etc. So it could be his burning program or his player that is the problem. I assume his burning program does not allow him to selects his tags, but it may. If it does he should experiment with A,B.C and O1-02-03. An 00 file will throw any player off and most will not follow 1-2-3.

This is where data files get tricky.

If your burning program and player can handle the same numbering system you are fine, if not there will be a problem. Believe it or not this issue has no agreed standard, so problems can and do occur.

Thanks. I'll try and remember that for futur. I'm just thankful that I never start my fisrt song on a list as 00.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

What TLS is saying in a nutshell is that your player in the car is probably an older version of a player that could play earlier versions of mp3s or the unit is defunct and is not playing properly. If you can play your CD-R filled with MP3s on your DVD or Bluray plyer without fail, then there is something clearly wrong with your player in your car.

About the 80 minutes of music.....A CD-R full of MP3s (depending on the bit rate at which the MP3 was created ) should hold at least two hours worth of music.

I do not play MP3-loaded CD-Rs on my Blu-ray or DVD player -- just my home CD changer, where they are, from there, burned to custom mixes on another CD-R in my CD recorder. Further, I have confirmed with my car's manufacturer and JBL themselves that this head unit's six-disc changer in my vehicle is not faulty in terms of its ability to read discs loaded with these types of files and I have already had the vehicle in to have the head unit sent out to test for it being defective in any way and it was not. This leaves us with the "burning filing system" suggested...

If this is the case, I am uncertain as to what I did wrong -- the situation in question is one in which I did not take the MP3 CD-R and then burn those tracks to another CD-R for final downmixing (as I described above). In this instance, I was just testing out the ability to burn MP3s onto a blank disc and play them as-is in my car, so what I did was burn the MP3 files and have my Burner XP program lay them down as tracks on the CD-R, then finalize the disc correctly via the program, and then I took the disc and played it in the car. The result was that the CD changer read it, but from what I could recall, it wouldn't play anything beyond Track 1, and there were several tracks on the disc.The whole changer just froze up from this MP3-loaded CD-R and it was really weird; I had to just eject the disc and start over once home. Coming into play here could have been the cheap CD-RW media I was using for this -- a Memorex disc from a cake pack spindle -- as I have had issues with different brands of media before.

As for the amount of music held on MP3 encodes versus CD-R audio tracks, indeed I figured on more than two hours of music when burning as MP3s instead of audio tracks -- with most CD-R media, burning as audio, you get 80 minutes. With MP3 tracks, you only get 120 minutes?

 

[TLS Guy]

I do not play MP3-loaded CD-Rs on my Blu-ray or DVD player -- just my home CD changer, where they are, from there, burned to custom mixes on another CD-R in my CD recorder. Further, I have confirmed with my car's manufacturer and JBL themselves that this head unit's six-disc changer in my vehicle is not faulty in terms of its ability to read discs loaded with these types of files and I have already had the vehicle in to have the head unit sent out to test for it being defective in any way and it was not. This leaves us with the "burning filing system" suggested...

If this is the case, I am uncertain as to what I did wrong -- the situation in question is one in which I did not take the MP3 CD-R and then burn those tracks to another CD-R for final downmixing (as I described above). In this instance, I was just testing out the ability to burn MP3s onto a blank disc and play them as-is in my car, so what I did was burn the MP3 files and have my Burner XP program lay them down as tracks on the CD-R, then finalize the disc correctly via the program, and then I took the disc and played it in the car. The result was that the CD changer read it, but from what I could recall, it wouldn't play anything beyond Track 1, and there were several tracks on the disc.The whole changer just froze up from this MP3-loaded CD-R and it was really weird; I had to just eject the disc and start over once home. Coming into play here could have been the cheap CD-RW media I was using for this -- a Memorex disc from a cake pack spindle -- as I have had issues with different brands of media before.

As for the amount of music held on MP3 encodes versus CD-R audio tracks, indeed I figured on more than two hours of music when burning as MP3s instead of audio tracks -- with most CD-R media, burning as audio, you get 80 minutes. With MP3 tracks, you only get 120 minutes?

How did you number (sequence) the tracks? I think this is the key to your situation.

You are not remixing you are copying, in an unnecessary step.

 

[BMXTRIX]

Coming into play here could have been the cheap CD-RW media I was using for this

CD-RW or CD-R????

This is VERY IMPORTANT!!!

CD-R and CD-RW discs aren't even close to the same animal and CD-R discs have far greater compatibility than CD-RW discs. In fact, someone just posted a few days ago about CD-RW discs not working in his car. Not suprising at all.

Instead, pick up some CD-R discs and try them instead. You only get one chance to fill the disc with music, but it should only cost you a few pennies a disc.

I've used bottom of the line cheap CD-R discs and have never had an issue and I've been using CD-R discs with MP3s for about 15 years or something now. My first MP3 car player was the Aiwa CDC-MP3 which was one of the first to the market.

I would STRONGLY encourage you to try again and see if you have better results with a CD-R disc. If not, there are some minute details we can go over.

I would also strongly recommend a halfway decent burning program like Nero instead of the cheap freebie, as it may give you better stability.

With MP3 tracks, you only get 120 minutes?

With standard 160kbs or 128kbs MP3 audio tracks you get about 10 hours of music per CD. 10 albums or so is what I typically find fits nicely.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

CD-RW or CD-R????

This is VERY IMPORTANT!!!

CD-R and CD-RW discs aren't even close to the same animal and CD-R discs have far greater compatibility than CD-RW discs. In fact, someone just posted a few days ago about CD-RW discs not working in his car. Not suprising at all.

Instead, pick up some CD-R discs and try them instead. You only get one chance to fill the disc with music, but it should only cost you a few pennies a disc.

I've used bottom of the line cheap CD-R discs and have never had an issue and I've been using CD-R discs with MP3s for about 15 years or something now. My first MP3 car player was the Aiwa CDC-MP3 which was one of the first to the market.

I would STRONGLY encourage you to try again and see if you have better results with a CD-R disc. If not, there are some minute details we can go over.

I would also strongly recommend a halfway decent burning program like Nero instead of the cheap freebie, as it may give you better stability.


With standard 160kbs or 128kbs MP3 audio tracks you get about 10 hours of music per CD. 10 albums or so is what I typically find fits nicely.

I know all about the differences between CD-R and CD-RW media -- I have been playing with this stuff since around 1996 or so, and I do realize that CD-RW media isn't nearly as "compatible" as CD-R discs. However, where my old car's CD player wouldn't read CD-RW discs at all, my 2008 car's JBL six-disc changer definitely does read them, as does my home Marantz changer. There has been no compatibility issues with the CD-RW media -- except for the time I burned the MP3 files onto one of the discs, and even with proper finalizing, the disc wouldn't play past the first track in my car...this had never happened before with doing just standard audio tracks onto CD-R/RW...

Additionally, I know all to well about the downside of using CD-Rs in that you can create plenty of "coasters" if you make recording mistakes -- I can't tell you how many I have thrown out after my recorder or changer made some kind of error, or I decided the order of the playlist wasn't right...I simply got so sick and tired of going through boxes of CD-R media because of this, and I decided to switch to rewritable media so at least I could keep erasing over the disc if there were any mistakes...