Movie DACs, Music DACs, or just DACs?

[sploo]

Well, all we know for sure is that you perceived something different, not that you heard a difference. Yes, there is a difference between perception and hearing. I perceive people calling me all the time to be told no, they didn't call me
So, because of uncontrolled biase, uncontrolled level differences at comparison, who knows what really happened in reality.

Absolutely correct - but only because I'd forgotten to bring several thousand [insert your currency here] of audio test equipment . However, we could tie ourselves up in all sorts of weird philosophical arguments regarding perception vs. reality; Is the sky really blue?

At the end of the day we (I guess it's 'we', not just me) buy audio equipment because we want to enjoy what it is we're hearing. Science may tell us that 'A' has some better characteristic than 'B', but it's what we perceive that dictates our purchasing decisions, and, hopefully, listening enjoyment.

Back to the original topic of the thread...

From doing a little reading over the last few days, I can now believe that the differences between pieces of different digital equipment are actually slight - and that a particular sound we like is the result of deliberate adjustment by a manufacturer. For instance, I was looking at the following:

http://audionotekits.espyderweb.net/dac.htm

...and specifically the schematic:

http://audionotekits.espyderweb.net/dacschem.jpg

I work with a number of electronics engineers (my background is software, and I have minimal electronics knowledge). My colleagues didn't think this DAC was anything out of the ordinary, but noted the use of tubes on the analogue side.

Would I therefore be right in assuming this is one of those things that companies do in order to obtain a 'certain sound' from their kit?

 

[WmAx]

I work with a number of electronics engineers (my background is software, and I have minimal electronics knowledge). My colleagues didn't think this DAC was anything out of the ordinary, but noted the use of tubes on the analogue side.

Would I therefore be right in assuming this is one of those things that companies do in order to obtain a 'certain sound' from their kit?

If you want that sound for 'cheap', it can be achieved by use of a piece of studio gear connected between the cd player analog outputs and source inputs. Behringer makes a high quality(construction & parts) tube stage that has an adjustable tube saturation control --- that means you can dial in exactly how much or how little tube sound that you desire.

http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHT1953

-Chris

 

[sploo]

...or just build that AudioNote DAC (I don't think the parts are particularly expensive)

Alternatively, I could just sit down for five minutes, and listen to the kit I've got. Ahhhh, the insatiable desire to tinker...

 

[WmAx]

...or just build that AudioNote DAC (I don't think the parts are particularly expensive)

Alternatively, I could just sit down for five minutes, and listen to the kit I've got. Ahhhh, the insatiable desire to tinker...

1. I don't think it would be possible to build a chassis and preamp of the quality the Behringer, for any lower cost than it is as a complete product.

2. The ADJUSTMENT of the tube coloration on the Behringer device allows you to dial in exactly how much coloration you prefer.

3. The Behringer device can be used on any source device -- not just limited to PCM digital ones as would be required with the AudioNote DAC.

BTW, which AudiNote DAC are you referring to? They have one that has no anti-alias filter which may cause audible coloration due to the distortion such a poorly designed device must inherantly produce becuase it lacks a critical component(anti-alias filter) for proper operation.

-Chris

 

[JohnA]

Hey Sploo...

Just wondering
... you have yet to compare a CD player (Cyrus CD6) to a CD player. If you are looking for strictly a CD player then why not compare apples to apples. Why compare a DVD player when it seems like your goal is to find a CD player. So if you are looking at spending aprox. $600 for a CD player why not look at other CD players in that price range?

 

[sploo]

WmAx - the DAC is the one I'd listed in my previous mail: http://audionotekits.espyderweb.net/dacschem.jpg. No idea if it's actually any good.

JohnA - Because I couldn't afford either (DVDP or CDP) at the time, the dealer just took me through a few options to show the difference in sound (obviously we needed a DVD player to allow me to audition the AV receivers I was looking at).

The reason I started the thread is that there's significant argument between those that that think a CD player will play CDs better than a DVD player... and those that say there should be no difference.

So far I've compared a 1000GBP DVD player to a 600GBP CD player - and felt that the CD player was vastly superior, and a 2500GBP DVD player to an 80GBP personal CD player - and couldn't hear any difference.

As WmAx would point out, it's just perception backed up with no real measurements, so I could be influencing the results with my own expectations. However, would you have expected a cheap personal CD player to sound like an expensive DVDP? No, me neither.

So... maybe it's simply a case that any decent DAC will sound much like another, and the external DACs (and DACs in good CD players) have 'something extra' to deliberately affect the sound in a way that the designer knows will be pleasing to most people's ears.

 

[WmAx]

WmAx - the DAC is the one I'd listed in my previous mail: http://audionotekits.espyderweb.net/dacschem.jpg. No idea if it's actually any good.

Ok - that appears to be the Audio Note DAC 1.1. It's a piece of garbage, technically. However, I am confident that it will sound *different* as compared to other(properly designed) DACs. So if you want *different*, it should fill that need -- but I don't know if you want that kind of different.

So... maybe it's simply a case that any decent DAC will sound much like another, and the external DACs (and DACs in good CD players) have 'something extra' to deliberately affect the sound in a way that the designer knows will be pleasing to most people's ears.

The Audio Note would be one such DAC, since it lacks a critical component(sufficient anti-alias filter). The Audio Note 1.1 is to DACs as SET technology is to amplifiers.

-Chris

 

[sploo]

Yea, one of my colleagues mentioned something about filters when he saw the schematic.

So... what would you consider a good DAC (and how would it differ from the Audio Node?)

I wasn't familiar with SET amplifiers, but having done a quick search, that seems like a whole different set of holy wars...

 

[WmAx]

So... what would you consider a good DAC (and how would it differ from the Audio Node?)

Behringer SRC2496 ($130 USD)

http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHSRC2496

It features the same hi quality DACs as used in the M-Audio SuperDAC, but the Behringer is much more powerful/versatile device -- and it's cheaper priced to boot. The SRC2496 is a professional studio DAC/ADC. It's features reflect this fact. It can accept a multitude of input types or convert to different output types, it reclocks all inputted digital streams to remove any jitter, and can correct sampling rate errors and you can directly control the re-sampling rates via the front controls.

I know I recommend a lot of Behringer products -- but they have a distinct advantage in price vs. quality on many products. The SRC2496 is no exception - I don't know of a comparable product for anywhere near the price point.

-Chris

 

[sploo]

Interesting... and a decent price too.

I wonder how it would compare to the DACs on the Denon DVDA-11 and Arcam AVR300 I'm currently using.

One of those things where you need to find someone with one, and give it a try.

 

[WmAx]

One of those things where you need to find someone with one, and give it a try.

Since this product is a piece of professional gear, the online retailers that deal with this sort of product usually have outstanding return policies -- usually in the 45 day range. So, order it from a place like zzounds.com or music123.com or musiciansfriend.com(I recommend these three because these are the ones I have used and had great service) and if you don't like it, just ship it back for a full refund(minus shipping) within the generous time frame.

Note that since this is a piece of professional gear, you will need some XLR-RCA adapters for the analog outputs in order to feed your RCA plug equipped amplifier, unless you have balanced XLR connections already available on your amplifier. In some cases, if a consumer device with unbalanced RCA connections can not take the output levels from pro gear, you may get clipping and need to put a voltage divider(two resistors in an L-Pad configuration or a potentiometer as a variable L-Pad) between the outputs of the DAC and the inputs of the amplifier.

-Chris

 

[sploo]

OK, the only problem is that I'm in the UK, and buying stuff from the US usually goes like this:

(imaginary world)
1. Order product from US site
2. US site ships product to you

(real world)
1. Order product from US site
2. US site ships product to you, but it's intercepted by UK Customs, who charge you:
a) 17.5% VAT (Vulture Added Tax) on the goods value
b) Some extra percentage tax on the goods value (duty)
c) A Customs handling charge - i.e. a charge for the priviledge of them stopping your item and charging you. *sigh*

I could of course look for a UK supplier, but in my experience (certainly of tools) you'll pay the dollar price as pounds (or more). With the current exhange rate, you're looking at roughly twice the cost for the same item.

~Rule Brittania, Brittania rules... well... f**ck all really~

 

[3beanlimit]

Well I had a different response but for the sake of sanity on this site, decided to pull it.

Yes, there are better DACs than others and yes.....it's not uncommon for a DVD player to have cheaper ones than CD players. As to Pre/Pros...recievers, and such, some have good one's some have cheap ones.

Use the better DAC in your equipment. Your ears will be a better judge than all the advice you get from those who are "happy" with boom box for music reproduction.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Your ears will be a better judge than all the advice you get from those who are "happy" with boom box for music reproduction.

Are you sure? How do you know that this judge is reliable? After all, one's senses can be fooled rather easily.
Are you implying something about enjoying boomboxes?

 

[WmAx]

Are you implying something about enjoying boomboxes?

Calm down, mtrycrafts. Breathe deeply. B-r-e-a-t-h-e.



-Chris

 

[3beanlimit]

Are you sure? How do you know that this judge is reliable? After all, one's senses can be fooled rather easily.
Are you implying something about enjoying boomboxes?

What other judge is there for what you percieve as good sound but your own ears? I've seen you post similar thoughts elsewhere. Sooo......in closing....

You may try and pick an agrument if you wish, but sir....I've already seen your post on coat hangers. Keep that jingle in your pockets and enjoy them hangers.

 

[mtrycrafts]

What other judge is there for what you percieve as good sound but your own ears? I've seen you post similar thoughts elsewhere.

Oh, you are just making preference choices then, not audible difference choices? Nothing wrong with that. Enjoy your picks as everyone should enjoy their choices


You may try and pick an agrument if you wish, but sir....I've already seen your post on coat hangers. Keep that jingle in your pockets and enjoy them hangers.

Coat hangers??? And??? Are you trying to imply they will not transmit the digital audio data? Or, something about coat hangers that reminds you of a dreadful past???

 

[mtrycrafts]

Calm down, mtrycrafts. Breathe deeply. B-r-e-a-t-h-e.



-Chris

I like my boomboxes I get defensive about them