More Dirac questions

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dlaloum

Senior Audioholic
Thanks for your input. Going to pick up a Denon 3800 pretty soon and I was tempted to just use Audessey but maybe I’ll take the plunge.

edit add: going to run the Denon for a couple months before adding Dirac just to make sure the Denon isn’t a bad unit, wouldn’t want to throw away $800
Keep in mind that the "simple" setup I described, was on an Integra Dirac-Centric AVR...

With the Denon's, the simple path is Audyssey centric...

My previous experience with Audyssey was disappointing, but that was a circa 2012 AVR... and there were no adjustments available... (the MRC feature could not be disabled, and messed up the midrange with my speakers!) - but all reports say that now with the external control/adjustment apps, those issues no longer exist... and many are reporting Audyssey XT32 providing results on a par with Dirac.

The Denon's were on my shortlist...
 
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dlaloum

Senior Audioholic
Totally ridiculous what Dirac charges to add Dirac to the Denon units.

My Pioneer AVR comes with the full-bandwidth version (20Hz – 20KHz) of Dirac.
Dirac wants $349 USD to add that to the Denon capable models.
Talk about price gouging !!
To be fair, I am sure that D&M paid a substantial amount for their perpetual and exclusive Audyssey licences.... which are then included in all their AVR's.

Onkyo/Pioneer/Integra used to have Audyssey too... it seems to me that it became unavailable to them after the D&M purchase...
For some years they continued with MCACC (and rebranded it as AccuEQ in Onkyo/Integra devices) - this is still included in all their AVR's, and does quite a decent job too.

So what D&M have done, is invested the time and effort in the integration within their AVR, to allow buyers to choose the option to purchase Dirac.
So they have invested some $, time and effort into the products.

The other thing to consider, is the base level PiOnkIo's only have a single sub output, and are limited to the included Dirac Live - they will never be able to support DLBC or DL-ART, and without the multiple Sub channels provided on the X800's sophisticated bass management is not a real option (without additional external devices, and independent integration).

The Denon's therefore become one of the best value paths into the higher end possibilities of Dirac and Bass management... even when you include the cost of the software, which if going the whole hog with ART, can be almost as much as the AVR over again.
 
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dlaloum

Senior Audioholic
How true!! Unfortunately, people like us can emphasize this 10X a day on forums, many people (not everyone, thankfully..) continue to make statements as though their experience represents facts that apply to everyone.
You are right, however the reviewers subjective response to MCACC vs Dirac, mirrors quite closely my own subjective experience of AccuEQ (MCACC rebrand) vs Dirac.

MCACC/ACCUEQ ain't bad... it is quite good... but Dirac is better.

Depending on the version/AVR, there are various tweaking options, that could be explored that may (or may not) improve results with MCACC/ACCUEQ... but if you already have an AVR with Dirac, why bother?
 
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dlaloum

Senior Audioholic
Well, in my case I made REW measurements, to confirm what Audyessey and Dirac did to the sound from my systems. Of course, I still cannot evaluate myView attachment 67944 "Subjective, personal preference, skill and knowledge..."! All I have is REW...
Looks to me as if the main issue here, is differing target curves...

This should be adjustable fairly easily in either system - you really cannot compare them without first adjusting them to the same F/R curve.... otherwise you are not comparing the system, but rather the chosen tuning...(the salt and pepper added, rather than the dish itself)
 
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dlaloum

Senior Audioholic
Yes, I could and did get similar (but not as accurate or as low, sub 20 htz) results in the bass region with Audyssey, by adjusting bass gain by 8-10dB, but I had lost faith in Audyssey. And the high end is also superior with Dirac. Now I have to tweek Dirac, by moving the dots in to elevate the ~100-500 htz, 'warmth region'.
My conclusion on my setup was that the midrange, dialogue/vocals were much improved with Dirac over Audyssey and AccuEQ/MCACC - and that this was not obviously related to the overall F/R target curve.

(Having said that, I am aware from my own personal tests, that differences of as little as 0.2db, can generate strange perception differences, on otherwise identical tracks!)
 
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Paul McNeil

Audioholic
It would be nice if Dirac also provided an ability to measure post EQ, to verify the software estimates - and potentially go into a feedback loop of subsequent adjustments.... but if wishes were fishes...
My thoughts exactly! Why Dirac does not implement this obviously extremely useful and revealing feature is NOT obvious to me: their full range sweeps generate the relevant data, that are displayed as typical frequency responses (as in REW), during the calibration process itself! Not to allow post-correction measurement is a business decision, I'm guessing, the logic of which defies me.
 
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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
You are right, however the reviewers subjective response to MCACC vs Dirac, mirrors quite closely my own subjective experience of AccuEQ (MCACC rebrand) vs Dirac.
Of course, you can't expect that happens to just one person!! My point is simply that not everyone would prefer the same thing, and if one person thinks MCACC is better, or the best, it doesn't mean it is better for everyone. And it would have been great if people make it a little clearer that it is their opinion only, fortunately at least many poster did just that, but there's still too many who seemed to like to make it sounds like they were stating some "facts". That' okay though as it is expected, it's sort of human behavior I suppose..

Depending on the version/AVR, there are various tweaking options, that could be explored that may (or may not) improve results with MCACC/ACCUEQ... but if you already have an AVR with Dirac, why bother?
Agreed, both subjectively (that may not apply to others lol..), and objectively too based on many measurements posted on the internet.
 
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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Well, in my case I made REW measurements, to confirm what Audyessey and Dirac did to the sound from my systems. Of course, I still cannot evaluate myView attachment 67944 "Subjective, personal preference, skill and knowledge..."! All I have is REW...
Dirac Live has incorporated a bass tilt in their default target curve, that would make it a little like Audyssey reference/flat with DEQ on at lower volume (but just one volume setting obviously).

Audyssey tends to remove your room gain, and that's likely the main reason for the bass tiling downward from the lower mid bass point, in your case, it is at around 100 Hz.

As @isolar8001 pointed out, you can edit the Audyssey target curve to add the same/similar bass upward tilt like Dirac's.

Other than that, I would bet you happen to be one of those who have the skill to run either one to get decent results.:) You did manage to tame the HF upward tilt that Audyssey reference typically would do, that, combine with the bass downward tilt, could be the reason why many don't like it, feeling that Audyssey make their music sound thin, bright etc. So, I think you are a good candidate for just tune Audyssey to your liking, with the help of REW and may not need to pay for DL at all, but like you, I would have both regardless. It is extra fun to be able to use both.
 
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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
wouldn’t want to throw away $800
Don't forget Dirac did offer some 30% discount occasionally, like a couple times a year. So if you are happy enough with Audyssey, but do want to have DL as well, you could just wait for the 30% sale, and save $240.
 
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TankTop5

Audioholic Field Marshall
Don't forget Dirac did offer some 30% discount occasionally, like a couple times a year. So if you are happy enough with Audyssey, but do want to have DL as well, you could just wait for the 30% sale, and save $240.
Wasn’t aware of that, thank you.
 
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Paul McNeil

Audioholic
Looks to me as if the main issue here, is differing target curves...

This should be adjustable fairly easily in either system - you really cannot compare them without first adjusting them to the same F/R curve.... otherwise you are not comparing the system, but rather the chosen tuning...(the salt and pepper added, rather than the dish itself)
Don't have a clue how to adjust Audyssey 'to the same F/R curve'. As I said, these measurements were made without tweeks, using the default curve for Dirac.
 
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dlaloum

Senior Audioholic
Don't have a clue how to adjust Audyssey 'to the same F/R curve'. As I said, these measurements were made without tweeks, using the default curve for Dirac.
The two have differing target curves... and if using DEQ with Audyssye (I would!) - then the target curve also varies with volume level.

There is an optional phoneapp available from Denon/marantz, and there a more sophisticated and more expensive PC app... there are also some third party apps which enable integration between REW and Audyssey... But having been off Audyssey for quite a few years now, I'm not the person to point you the right way on this!
 
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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
My thoughts exactly! Why Dirac does not implement this obviously extremely useful and revealing feature is NOT obvious to me: their full range sweeps generate the relevant data, that are displayed as typical frequency responses (as in REW), during the calibration process itself! Not to allow post-correction measurement is a business decision, I'm guessing, the logic of which defies me.
My guess is a little different...

I think they could have implement such a feature easily, but they probably would not because of the following concerns:

1) No one else is doing it, Anthem does the quick measure thing but while their fans rave about that, in reality it is almost useless the way they implement it, like a joke, a semi useful (deserve some credit for sure) joke..

2) They know full well the post measurements would not look pretty versus the predicted, most likely because the predicted are a) predicted, so the results will naturally look like the target curves as in theory they are supposed to, b) the REW like curves will invariably be for the mmp only, otherwise users may be confused, and it would be hard for them to do practically speaking, to measure all mic positions and in exactly the same locations as the positions used during calibration.

3) Such RC software likely do their own averaging for the predicted results, so if they do the post correction measurements, the results may in fact look like the predicted results they show now, but would not likely look the same as those people obtained with REW, in that case, people may complain just the same.

4) Because of the above reasons, and likely more, such post correction measurements may end up putting them at disadvantage, it would like like for AVR/power amp manufacturers to publish their all channel driven rated output for 20-20,000 Hz at 0.01%THD, when most others do the 2 channel one for 1 kHz, That could be suicidal from marketing standpoint!

Again, that's my guess albeit I believe it is an educated one based on my understanding of how they work. One of these days I will try to use REW to measure all mic positions used in the calibration process, to do that I would have to mark the positions somehow. I believe if I do that, and then do some kind of averaging, the results could match Dirac's predicted ones a little more. It still won't be exact, as Dirac, also Audyssey, will not likely do their averaging like REW does.
 
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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Don't have a clue how to adjust Audyssey 'to the same F/R curve'. As I said, these measurements were made without tweeks, using the default curve for Dirac.
I posted an example ( I made it like that just to show what you can do if you want, in practice, a smooth tilted curve is probably all you need, to simulate Dirac's), in post#14:

That's just using the $20 app with Ratbuddyssey. Obviously if Dirac Live is doing what you want it to do, there is probably no point using Audyssey, but for those who don't want to pay extra, the $20 app is probably a must.

Those with infinite patience and are good with their fingers, or touch pens, could almost do it without using Ratbuddyssey.

1718536824064.png
 
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Paul McNeil

Audioholic
My guess is a little different...

I think they could have implement such a feature easily, but they probably would not because of the following concerns:

1) No one else is doing it, Anthem does the quick measure thing but while their fans rave about that, in reality it is almost useless the way they implement it, like a joke, a semi useful (deserve some credit for sure) joke..

2) They know full well the post measurements would not look pretty versus the predicted, most likely because the predicted are a) predicted, so the results will naturally look like the target curves as in theory they are supposed to, b) the REW like curves will invariably be for the mmp only, otherwise users may be confused, and it would be hard for them to do practically speaking, to measure all mic positions and in exactly the same locations as the positions used during calibration.

3) Such RC software likely do their own averaging for the predicted results, so it they do the post correction measurements, the results may in fact look like the predicted results they show now, but would not likely look the same as those people obtained with REW, in that case, people may complain just the same.

4) Because of the above reasons, and likely more, such post correction measurements may end up putting them at disadvantage, it would like like for AVR/power amp manufacturers to publish their all channel driven rated output for 20-20,000 Hz at 0.01%THD, when most others do the 2 channel one for 1 kHz, That could be suicidal from marketing standpoint!

Again, that's my guess albeit I believe it is an educated one based on my understanding of how they work. One of these days I will try to use REW to measure all mic positions used in the calibration process, to do that I would have to mark the positions somehow. I believe if I do that, and then do some kind of averaging, the results could match Dirac's predicted ones a little more. It still won't be exact, as Dirac, also Audyssey, will not likely do their averaging like REW does.
Peng, Brilliant analysis, in particular, your number 2, explains it for me. Business decision, not 'audioholic' decision. Thanks!
 
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Paul McNeil

Audioholic
I posted an example ( I made it like that just to show what you can do if you want, in practice, a smooth tilted curve is probably all you need, to simulate Dirac's), in post#14:

That's just using the $20 app with Ratbuddyssey. Obviously if Dirac Live is doing what you want it to do, there is probably no point using Audyssey, but for those who don't want to pay extra, the $20 app is probably a must.

Those with infinite patience and are good with their fingers, or touch pens, could almost do it without using Ratbuddyssey.

View attachment 67971
Yeah, I know that, for example Gene, maybe with infinite patience, has posted REW Audyssey result curves similar (but better with more sub 20 htz bass) to my initial Dirac REW result done without tweeks. Gene even, if I remember correctly, incorporated full range left and rights into that curve, using new (with Marantz) possibilities for integrating such rare, truly full range speakers/amplifiers (that do not display intermodulation distortion being driven full range, which is rare based on Erin's many measurements, see Erin's Audio Corner, https://www.erinsaudiocorner.com/). Gene used, if I remember correctly, the 'Pro' kit for this. Yeah, it can be done, but I was posting here for someone newer to the game, and felt that they might appreciate an objective view of what one gets, no tweeks, straight out of the gate. It was a revelation to me...
 
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Paul McNeil

Audioholic
The two have differing target curves... and if using DEQ with Audyssye (I would!) - then the target curve also varies with volume level.

There is an optional phoneapp available from Denon/marantz, and there a more sophisticated and more expensive PC app... there are also some third party apps which enable integration between REW and Audyssey... But having been off Audyssey for quite a few years now, I'm not the person to point you the right way on this!
I know all of this, thanks, I posted to help a newcomer, who wants results straight out of the gate.
 
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PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I know all of this, thanks, I posted to help a newcomer, who wants results straight out of the gate.
In that case, tell him he needs to bite the bullet and buy the DL licenses. You might have told him that already, lol..
 
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Paul McNeil

Audioholic
In that case, tell him he needs to bite the bullet and buy the DL licenses. You might have told him that already, lol..
I'm a (retired) scientist, I prefer data as an argument!
 

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