Moral decision, anyone here familiar with sub dividing land lots?

M

MidnightSensi2

Audioholic Chief
So you feel that you were clear when you sold the properties on what would likely be built in front of them?

Just saying... landscaping aint gunna fix it if you feel bad now... (I'm not taking the moral high ground either, just saying - audioholic to audioholic - lol)
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
legally I have no obligation, I could sell that land to a dog breeder or pig farm if I wanted, lol.. But I wouldn't feel good about myself, like I said I spent a lot of time with these people, one of the couples had me and my wife attend their anniversary party last year... And while they didn't tell me not to sell the land and I don't think they would ever say that, but I know they must be thinking "he doesn't need the money, why would he do that to us"... The property values are already much lower than their purchases prices, putting houses in their back yard isn't going to help anything, and when they figure home values they use neighboring properties so if they build a bunch of inexpensive houses back there it is going to make it worse...

I will do what I can, I would like to sell the land, it is one of the last bare lots I own, and they don't make me money, they go down in value {lately}, they cost me money to insure and pay taxes on, when I could be earning interest on them funds... I even tried to get a friend of mine that is looking to build a large home buy the other lots, I told him buy the foreclosed house, buy the other 10 acres and my 9 that will give him around 26 acres, cut the foreclosed houses lot down to 3 fix it up and sell it for a profit, that will leave around 23 acres for him to build his house on. He said he drove by and his wife didnt like how far it was from the local schools, their youngest child is 16 so I wouldn't let that be a huge factor since they will only be there another 2 years, BUT they want what they want... Also they are building a 7000 sq ft home and that area doesnt have anything like that, they are all around 3000sq...
 
M

MidnightSensi2

Audioholic Chief
legally I have no obligation, I could sell that land to a dog breeder or pig farm if I wanted, lol.. But I wouldn't feel good about myself, like I said I spent a lot of time with these people, one of the couples had me and my wife attend their anniversary party last year... And while they didn't tell me not to sell the land and I don't think they would ever say that, but I know they must be thinking "he doesn't need the money, why would he do that to us"... The property values are already much lower than their purchases prices, putting houses in their back yard isn't going to help anything, and when they figure home values they use neighboring properties so if they build a bunch of inexpensive houses back there it is going to make it worse...

I will do what I can, I would like to sell the land, it is one of the last bare lots I own, and they don't make me money, they go down in value {lately}, they cost me money to insure and pay taxes on, when I could be earning interest on them funds... I even tried to get a friend of mine that is looking to build a large home buy the other lots, I told him buy the foreclosed house, buy the other 10 acres and my 9 that will give him around 26 acres, cut the foreclosed houses lot down to 3 fix it up and sell it for a profit, that will leave around 23 acres for him to build his house on. He said he drove by and his wife didnt like how far it was from the local schools, their youngest child is 16 so I wouldn't let that be a huge factor since they will only be there another 2 years, BUT they want what they want... Also they are building a 7000 sq ft home and that area doesnt have anything like that, they are all around 3000sq...
Ah, now I understand better.

I'm not sure we can assume they'd think selling the land is weird. For you to keep it, seems more out of the ordinary - these were plans even before you met the couple. Your a nice guy that knows the right business decision doesn't align with what is best for your new friends property value.

Do what's best for business. If you can go that extra effort with the trees or what not to make their neighbors houses not as intrusive, then maybe see what you can do.. but, consider it helping a friend on the side - not the driver of your business decisions.
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
OK- UPDATE- I just got a call from Sarah {women who is meeting with us saturday} and she said $300K even for the entire 9 acres and I take a deposit and sign a sales agreement Saturday, then get the rest of the payment Monday as soon as I file the quit claim deed. I asked what about a title search and she said they already did and they always purchase title insurance anyway... It seems like they are very nervous now that I told her I want the neighbors to see the plans, she said that is very unorthodox and she doesn't even know if she will be able to field the questions they may have.... I assured her I would not snow ball her and they are good people, that is why I want them to be present... She reply'ed by saying if I fax her my bank info she can have the entire 300K in escrow by the end of business Friday pending the quit claim deed... She really doesn't want to deal with the neighbors, lol!!! This leads me to believe they are clear cutting and building right inline with the existing houses...

NOW I am really in a pickle.... They want this sealed up Saturday, and I don't want to do it in front of my friends...... Let me also state I couldn't get $300K for that property in profit if I built a house on it!!!
 
C

cpd

Full Audioholic
OK- UPDATE- I just got a call from Sarah {women who is meeting with us saturday} and she said $300K even for the entire 9 acres and I take a deposit and sign a sales agreement Saturday, then get the rest of the payment Monday as soon as I file the quit claim deed. I asked what about a title search and she said they already did and they always purchase title insurance anyway... It seems like they are very nervous now that I told her I want the neighbors to see the plans, she said that is very unorthodox and she doesn't even know if she will be able to field the questions they may have.... I assured her I would not snow ball her and they are good people, that is why I want them to be present... She reply'ed by saying if I fax her my bank info she can have the entire 300K in escrow by the end of business Friday pending the quit claim deed... She really doesn't want to deal with the neighbors, lol!!! This leads me to believe they are clear cutting and building right inline with the existing houses...

NOW I am really in a pickle.... They want this sealed up Saturday, and I don't want to do it in front of my friends...... Let me also state I couldn't get $300K for that property in profit if I built a house on it!!!
So let me get this straight, they increased their offer 73k in response to you raising concerns about your neighbors. My first question would be - how much more are they willing spend?

They seem to want the property bad. I'd keep them on the line. I'm not very experienced in property, but why couldn't you negotiate a perpetual easement into the deal for your current homeowners that permits them to maintain trees in a small strip adjacent to each of their own borders? I'd see if something like that and $500k would get the deal done.:D
 
M

MidnightSensi2

Audioholic Chief
OK- UPDATE- I just got a call from Sarah {women who is meeting with us saturday} and she said $300K even for the entire 9 acres and I take a deposit and sign a sales agreement Saturday, then get the rest of the payment Monday as soon as I file the quit claim deed. I asked what about a title search and she said they already did and they always purchase title insurance anyway... It seems like they are very nervous now that I told her I want the neighbors to see the plans, she said that is very unorthodox and she doesn't even know if she will be able to field the questions they may have.... I assured her I would not snow ball her and they are good people, that is why I want them to be present... She reply'ed by saying if I fax her my bank info she can have the entire 300K in escrow by the end of business Friday pending the quit claim deed... She really doesn't want to deal with the neighbors, lol!!! This leads me to believe they are clear cutting and building right inline with the existing houses...

NOW I am really in a pickle.... They want this sealed up Saturday, and I don't want to do it in front of my friends...... Let me also state I couldn't get $300K for that property in profit if I built a house on it!!!
Take it. The first offer in real estate, is often the best. ;)

Again, you've already gone above and beyond for the neighbors. They're new friends, yes, but, you were in business before and you aren't doing anything wrong. Not like they didn't know other houses could be built...
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
So let me get this straight, they increased their offer 73k in response to you raising concerns about your neighbors. My first question would be - how much more are they willing spend?

They seem to want the property bad. I'd keep them on the line. I'm not very experienced in property, but why couldn't you negotiate a perpetual easement into the deal for your current homeowners that permits them to maintain trees in a small strip adjacent to each of their own borders? I'd see if something like that and $500k would get the deal done.:D

Here is the trick to land development.... TIME and MONEY, time always comes first because it costs money... There are 3 ways to tackle a project like this, 6 houses is not a lot by any means, I seen plots in florida with 300 houses go up in a year {although they don't dig foundations and can build year round}, 1 way is to fund it in house, so you use liquid assets to fund the project, think of a cup with 10 ozs in it, you poor out 6ozs to get the project finished and hopefully get 12ozs back in a short enough time where you wont need the 6ozs back...
2nd way is to get loans, this is tough rite now, banks don't care what your track record is, they don't like loaning to builders, they got burnt a lot and its risky, so they charge you, and a lot, plus its hard to get the money once you are approved, they give it to you in stages after 3rd party inspections are done, its a nightmare,
the 3rd way which is the second easiest and second least risky for the builder and most popular- is to use investers, private people thta have money to lend, you show them the plan, they write the check, you give them a payment everytime a property sells and in the end they get a return on it, think about it everyone wins, you share the risk and can make up to 50% in a single year, show me the investment plan that can do that...
there is one more way but VERY hard to coordinate, you sell the houses before they are built, to do this you should own the land outright, this is how I have done a bunch of them, I buy the land, clear it, prep it and in some cases put foundations, and hook the utilities in.. Then advertise it as "Build to suit" then they come pick out their house, put a down payment and finance it all at once when its done... They get the look, space, layout, colors, floors, kitchen ect they want, they are part of the build get to watch it happen and save tons of bank costs and TIME...

So as I hear through the grape vine {we are in a small state} they have investors ready, the other land owner already took a deposit {and they stole that 10 acres}, the bank that holds the note on the foreclosed house already accepted an offer and they have under 30 days to pay for it or they have to go through the entire foreclosure sale again, and as I hear that they bought that house really well too... SO- I am the last piece of the puzzle.....

Tomorrow is the big day, I made up my mind I am going to sell, she called me today and asked what I was thinking. Now she knows I am in business and have developed land myself obviously, so she knows I know their offer is STRONG, but here is the wild card.... Sure they know I don't want to screw over my old clients, BUT thats not why they came back so strong on the offer.. They know I can walk in with out the time it takes to coordinate investors and pull the rug out, in under 30 days their contract with the bank is up {I know the rep at the bank and can walk in on Sept. 1st with cash and close by the 7th on that foreclosed house}..
So no investor is going to invest in half of this project, and honestly they cant even get half with out my land, it costs money to bring in a street, even with buried electrical, well water, no gas lines, and no sewer, still very costly, not worth doing for 2 houses....

SO thats why the offer jumped, the owner of the company called a mutual friend who called me and told me what he told him, and he came to the conclusion I can walk into his deal self finance and make a million dollars for my self....

So I my office manager {she is a Real Estate Attorney} is drawing up a sale agreement for $347,500 which I am going to bring with me tomorrow, I am going to ask what the most they will bring to the table is and if its higher than that I will keep it in my folder if its lower I will bring it out as my final offer..... I have been talking to my wife and a few friends about this {as well as you guys} for a week now, if my old customers are not happy, I am going to offer to put their fair market values towards a new house, I own another piece of land {big enough for 2 nice lots} about 3 miles from this piece {I was going to get it rezoned commercial in the future} and I will build them 2 new houses and sell their houses...

My wife thinks that is the worst idea she ever heard, she thinks its insulting to even bring it up and doesn't want me to say it out loud, lol!!!! She said "just tell them this is how it is, we are selling it because its a super fantastic deal, let us know if we can do anything for you but this is business" , the problem with that is, I have to be the one to say that, lol, she gets to see them in the super market and say, "oh I don't know, you know how he is, all business"....

ANYWAY, so I made up my mind, I am selling it, and hopefully it does not create hard feelings... I will update tomorrow morning after the meeting....
 
M

MidnightSensi2

Audioholic Chief
Here is the trick to land development.... TIME and MONEY, time always comes first because it costs money... There are 3 ways to tackle a project like this, 6 houses is not a lot by any means, I seen plots in florida with 300 houses go up in a year {although they don't dig foundations and can build year round}, 1 way is to fund it in house, so you use liquid assets to fund the project, think of a cup with 10 ozs in it, you poor out 6ozs to get the project finished and hopefully get 12ozs back in a short enough time where you wont need the 6ozs back...
2nd way is to get loans, this is tough rite now, banks don't care what your track record is, they don't like loaning to builders, they got burnt a lot and its risky, so they charge you, and a lot, plus its hard to get the money once you are approved, they give it to you in stages after 3rd party inspections are done, its a nightmare,
the 3rd way which is the second easiest and second least risky for the builder and most popular- is to use investers, private people thta have money to lend, you show them the plan, they write the check, you give them a payment everytime a property sells and in the end they get a return on it, think about it everyone wins, you share the risk and can make up to 50% in a single year, show me the investment plan that can do that...
there is one more way but VERY hard to coordinate, you sell the houses before they are built, to do this you should own the land outright, this is how I have done a bunch of them, I buy the land, clear it, prep it and in some cases put foundations, and hook the utilities in.. Then advertise it as "Build to suit" then they come pick out their house, put a down payment and finance it all at once when its done... They get the look, space, layout, colors, floors, kitchen ect they want, they are part of the build get to watch it happen and save tons of bank costs and TIME...
Interesting, this is really helpful to know.

So as I hear through the grape vine {we are in a small state} they have investors ready, the other land owner already took a deposit {and they stole that 10 acres}, the bank that holds the note on the foreclosed house already accepted an offer and they have under 30 days to pay for it or they have to go through the entire foreclosure sale again, and as I hear that they bought that house really well too... SO- I am the last piece of the puzzle.....

Tomorrow is the big day, I made up my mind I am going to sell, she called me today and asked what I was thinking. Now she knows I am in business and have developed land myself obviously, so she knows I know their offer is STRONG, but here is the wild card.... Sure they know I don't want to screw over my old clients, BUT thats not why they came back so strong on the offer.. They know I can walk in with out the time it takes to coordinate investors and pull the rug out, in under 30 days their contract with the bank is up {I know the rep at the bank and can walk in on Sept. 1st with cash and close by the 7th on that foreclosed house}..
So no investor is going to invest in half of this project, and honestly they cant even get half with out my land, it costs money to bring in a street, even with buried electrical, well water, no gas lines, and no sewer, still very costly, not worth doing for 2 houses....

SO thats why the offer jumped, the owner of the company called a mutual friend who called me and told me what he told him, and he came to the conclusion I can walk into his deal self finance and make a million dollars for my self....

So I my office manager {she is a Real Estate Attorney} is drawing up a sale agreement for $347,500 which I am going to bring with me tomorrow, I am going to ask what the most they will bring to the table is and if its higher than that I will keep it in my folder if its lower I will bring it out as my final offer.....
Sounds like a good plan.

I have been talking to my wife and a few friends about this {as well as you guys} for a week now, if my old customers are not happy, I am going to offer to put their fair market values towards a new house, I own another piece of land {big enough for 2 nice lots} about 3 miles from this piece {I was going to get it rezoned commercial in the future} and I will build them 2 new houses and sell their houses...
:eek:

My wife thinks that is the worst idea she ever heard, she thinks its insulting to even bring it up and doesn't want me to say it out loud, lol!!!! She said "just tell them this is how it is, we are selling it because its a super fantastic deal, let us know if we can do anything for you but this is business" , the problem with that is, I have to be the one to say that, lol, she gets to see them in the super market and say, "oh I don't know, you know how he is, all business"....

ANYWAY, so I made up my mind, I am selling it, and hopefully it does not create hard feelings... I will update tomorrow morning after the meeting....
I agree with your wife!!! And while I can see why you may feel a need to explain, know that your not obligated to say why.
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
OK, so we met, everyone showed up, even the other couple that built the first house. I had lunch brought in and we started with that {I figured if things got heated at least we didn't have to sit through lunch afterwards}. But no one ever got too excited about anything, their plans are just as I thought, clear cut all the land the acquire, build 6 houses, 2 with detached buildings. I am guessing them 2 are already under contract because no builder would take a gamble like that when you can just throw up a detached building after the house is sold if the buyer needs it...

So with the plot charts she brought in they will end up with neighbors in site, it will definitely change the "feeling" of their property from secluded to neighborhood... After we looked everything over I had a private conversation with the current land owners and they all understood the business end of it and what I had to do. I explained that while they are building there at least its not a farm or wood mill {this is a growing problem, sure farm views sound good but they don't smell good}....

After I got the "ok" from my friends which I value, and I think both are going to be putting their houses on the market before this happens because both were very interested when ground will breaking would be. Which is actually weird, they are going to sub divide everything, then build a house in my front lot, and fix the foreclosed house up after cutting it down to 3 acres, sell both them houses, then cut in the street, so they are looking to start that next week but wont cut in the street until both are sold.. OBVIOUSLY figuring the houses are worth more before the new street goes in!!! Shady stuff.... But this gives my friends time to sell if that is what they are thinking...

I am going to call them this week, if they are thinking of selling I think my previous idea of building them houses may work out, same school district, nicer land, and I will build what ever they want...

OK, now onto the business end, they left and I was left to work out the sale... Long story short $318K, they already did a title search, but want me to personally guarantee 3 acres buildable and no leans, which is no issue for me because I have the perc test map that shows 3 good spots on the first 3 acre square and nothing has changed since I had that done, and I know there are no leans on the property... She wrote me a deposit check of $118K {which I will not ever deposit, they will pay in full and I will hand that check back at town hall when I do the quit claim}... So after taxes and attorneys I will end up with under $250K, which is way way way more than that land could make me by itself.... I could tell she was relieved that we were making the deal, as i understand it this is her baby, so if it didn't go through she would be on unemployment until she found another project that investors would consider... Thats a tough way to live, but she seems to do well by the looks of things...


So anyway, thats all over with, not to bad of an outcome, and I think everyone is still my friend, lol...
 
ImcLoud

ImcLoud

Audioholic Ninja
Deals all done... I spoke with one of the couples about 20 minutes ago and they are listing their home, they were talking about selling before so and said this was the factor that made them pull the trigger... The reason for their call was to see if I had anything in mind for a new place.. I told them I could build one, but there is a very nice deal on a foreclosed home built in 2011 that hasn't hit mls yet, they knew the house {they drive by it everyday} so I am having my office manager to a little leg work to see what it will take to get them into it... The house they are selling is pristine and I am sure it will sell quickly...
I think my wife summed it up best after I hung up the phone, she said "you were worried about screwing them by selling the property but they are not very worried about screwing the next person..." I guess its true, but what ever, the transfer cleared, we filed the quitclaim and thats all she wrote. Now I get to close out that project and pay the taxes....
 

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