Mod my Denon 3910 or 5910?

[Sleestack]

I have a Denon 3910 and 5910. Currently, I only need one DVD player, so I am thinking about sending my 3910 off to Underwood to get the level 2 mod. although I have several other high-end CD players (Meridian G08 and Onix CD-1), I thought it would be nice to have an SACD capable source with great redbook playback.

I was considering modding the 5910, but I'm afraid to blow the warranty. I figure if things go well with the 3910, I'll do the 5910.

Anyway, anyone have experience with a modded 3910? Anyone think I should go straight to modding the 5910?

 

[Mobius]

As I don't know much of anything about the modding of these players the price of doing so seems rather high, however knowing that you're looking into this I assume price does not matter. Are you looking at doing the 2 channel mods or all channels?

I am curious of how a level 2 modded 3910 would compare to a stock 5910? Or even a level 1 modded 3910 for that matter.

I guess the thing for you to think about is if you need 2 modded machines and if you only need 1 which would you rather have modded? Do any of these mods affect the picture quality (+ or -) in any way?

Please share what you end up doing.

 

[Sleestack]

As I don't know much of anything about the modding of these players the price of doing so seems rather high, however knowing that you're looking into this I assume price does not matter. Are you looking at doing the 2 channel mods or all channels?

I am curious of how a level 2 modded 3910 would compare to a stock 5910? Or even a level 1 modded 3910 for that matter.

I guess the thing for you to think about is if you need 2 modded machines and if you only need 1 which would you rather have modded? Do any of these mods affect the picture quality (+ or -) in any way?

Please share what you end up doing.

I'm doing the level 2 mod on the 3910 along with the superclock and center channel. On the adivice of Underwood, I m not spending money modding the surround channels, only the center and mains. I'll let you know how it ends up comparing to the 5910 after I get it back.

I don't think mods affect picture quality at all. Most of the mods address the analog output stage. I'll be using the 3910 primarily (if not exclusively) for audio. I wanted an SACD capable player with strong redbook performance.

I agree that the modification costs are a bit insane. Definitely a questionable value play. Nevertheless, I was looking at the TEAC Esoteric products so this might actually turn out to be a good bargain in relative terms. My Meridian G08 is my favorite redbook source, so I am particularly interested to see how the modded 3910 stacks up against the Meridian in redbook.

I will definitely post an update once my 3910 comes back... should be about 2 weeks.

 

[DVV]

I have a Denon 3910 and 5910. Currently, I only need one DVD player, so I am thinking about sending my 3910 off to Underwood to get the level 2 mod. although I have several other high-end CD players (Meridian G08 and Onix CD-1), I thought it would be nice to have an SACD capable source with great redbook playback.

I was considering modding the 5910, but I'm afraid to blow the warranty. I figure if things go well with the 3910, I'll do the 5910.

Anyway, anyone have experience with a modded 3910? Anyone think I should go straight to modding the 5910?

So how much are those mods, and what do they include?

Cheers,
DVV

 

[Sleestack]

So how much are those mods, and what do they include?

Cheers,
DVV

I did the center channel and added the superclock, so my price was a bit north of $2K for the modifications.

From their website:

Denon DVD-3910 Level-1 mod - ($1050 retro-fit to your machine, add $600 for center-channel, , add $480 for Audiocom Superclock II/LC Audio upgrade when purchased together with the Level-1 mod package, add $180 for a pair of Bybee Slipstream Quantum Purifiers installed in the power supply right behind the AC inlet)

Our Level-1 mod installs:


We upgrade the hypercritical I-V, analog filter and output buiffer op amps to replace the cheap stock "surface mount" parts (currently about 50 cents each from JRC) with AD8620, the very best dual op amps offered by Analog Devices, mounted to special smt-to-smt vertical adapters (this opamp is 30 times more expensive than the stock part). This part dramatically enhances both the unit's technical and subjective audio performance. The 3910 Level 1 Mod uses 4 of these dual op amp upgrade modules. For comparison purposes, op amps of this quality are usually found in 2-channel products retailing for $3000 to $5,000 USD +

The output stage is biased into Class A. to provide added tonal purity and effortlessness of presentation. This is an improvement over the older 2900/5900 mod.

One pair of output RCA jacks is changed from the cheap stamped nickel-plated brass and plastic types to precious machined Vampire RCA jacks, using a base material of OFC-Copper (3.5 times more conductive than brass) and direct gold plating with no intermediate nickel plating (which is magnetic and not desirable)

The output signal currently exits via a minuscule tin/lead plated PCB trace. Our mod uses 4 legs of pure 99.999% 23-awg solid-core silver DH Labs wire with foamed Teflon tape-wrap dielectric (the very best).

22 critical signal resistors are changed to precision Japanese-made Riken Ohm Carbon Comp types with gold-plated copper leads (replacing cheap, magnetic, China-sourced metal-film resistors).

All critical caps are replaced with the best Electrolytic types - 2 x Auricap metallized polypropylene coupling caps + 2 x paralleled Black Gate FK-Series coupling caps, eliminating the cheapest-quality generic electrolytic caps in the stock unit. This bypassed coupling cap hybrid gives us the bass and dynamics provided by a "quality" high value electrolytic and the tonal purity of a world-class film cap.

14 precision 1% polystyrene film and tin foil caps enter the analog filter to replace cheap tantalum caps in the stock unit.

The power supply and digital stages are upgraded with 15 Black Gate FK, NX, STD series electrolytic caps replacing cheap ceramic and/or generic electrolytics and all critical analog supply diodes (currently generic quality) are replaced with ultra-fast soft-recovery Fred type diodes - 4 x Vishay-Telefunken and 5 x) International Rectifier Hexfreds.

The chassis resonances are damped with 2 sheets of 1squ.ft SoundCoat )

External vibrations are isolated via 4 large compliant Ear Sorbothane feet.

We use WBT 4% silver solder throughout.

The mod takes approximately 7 hours to complete.


Our Level-2 mod improves the DVD-3910 even further by adding:


Burr Brown OPA-627 Opamps in custom surface mounting boards to add the best dynamics and midrange performance closest to tube performance. These are the same opamps used in $10,000 machines. They are sonically the best made.

Two REL-Cap Teflon TFT-Exotica bypass caps. This double-bypassed coupling cap hybrid gives us the best of all worlds - improved bass and dynamics provided by a "quality" high value electrolytic; the tonal purity of a world-class film cap; and the speed, delicacy and high frequency sparkle achieved by adding a Teflon bypass cap!

 

[Sleestack]

There happens to be a recent Audioholics review: http://www.audioholics.com/productreviews/avhardware/denondvd3910modp2.php

Looks like I might have to modify my order b/c I really want the mods done on the 2 channel anlog stage, not the SACD analog connections.

Actually, scratch that, seems like the Audioholics review is wrong on that one. The FL and FR can be use for 2 channel. I'm a bit confused, but I'll rely on the mod shop's information on that one.

 

[warnerwh]

After reading the review it's a tough call. Alot of people swear by the mods but I'm skeptical. Alot of people swear by different wire too. For the money I'd just get a better player. Also the return on your investment if you sell is very small. With more revealing speakers and better electronics than the review was made with then maybe the differences would be more. For that much money I'd not worry about the difference for movies and if cd sound were very important I'd just get a Marantz SA11s or Sony XA9000es. You'll have outstanding sound and Sacd capability.

 

[Sleestack]

After reading the review it's a tough call. Alot of people swear by the mods but I'm skeptical. Alot of people swear by different wire too. For the money I'd just get a better player. Also the return on your investment if you sell is very small. With more revealing speakers and better electronics than the review was made with then maybe the differences would be more. For that much money I'd not worry about the difference for movies and if cd sound were very important I'd just get a Marantz SA11s or Sony XA9000es. You'll have outstanding sound and Sacd capability.

I aready tried the Sony... and realized I would want to mod that too. I found its redbook to be very average compared to my Meridian G08. Instead, I just picked up the 5910 to replace the 3910 and decided to tinker with the 3910.

I don't think this is anything like speaker wire. Most people will agree that changes in opamps will make a difference. I don't know if the difference will be significant, but I'm looking for quality, not quantity.

Most of my equipment is fairly high-end, so I'm sure differences will be noticeable. I'm not using it for movies, so all I'm concerned about is redbook and SACD/DVD-audio. For a total cost of around $3,300, I don't consider the upgraded player a bad value at all... especially considering the price of my redbook only G08.

Nevertheless, I will also remain a bit skeptical until I hear the end product for myself.

 

[Mobius]

Sleestack,

I do agree with you that when you consider the price of some stand alone CD players, the cost of an excellent universal player + a highly modded 2 channel section does not seem all that bad.

I'm not understanding on the mod though as to why they would change out the FR/FL in the multi channel inputs, unless you were gonna get all the channels upgraded. It to me would seem to make more sense to have them change out the regular 2 channel section plugs and keep the multi channel all the same, I guess there is high res 2 channel stuff though too so my thinking could easily be way off on this topic.

I asked underwood about modding my Yamaha S2300 but he said no dice. I don't know what exactly the reasons are as to why there are no upgrades to the Yamaha players, maybe they are total junk or maybe they are already decent to where the upgrades are not that noticeable, maybe they are just too hard to work with I dunno.

 

[DVV]

I did the center channel and added the superclock, so my price was a bit north of $2K for the modifications. ...

Thank you, Sleestack, very comprehensive.

...The output stage is biased into Class A. to provide added tonal purity and effortlessness of presentation. This is an improvement over the older 2900/5900 mod. ...

Biased in Class A, the output stage? No kidding? Over the last 30+ years, I haven't seen an output stage in a low level device (i.e. non-power amp or some special, rare device) which WASN'T biased in class A.

Let's see, the lowest input impedance I have seen over the last 15 years or so was in an Italian Monrio integrated amp, just 8K2 (the rest were all higher, from 20K upwards). Assuming Red Book standards, the output would be 2V, so the current needed is (2:8,200) 0.24 miliamps. Wow! They are really bending head over heels to give us pure Class A operation!

Pure marketspeak!

... OPA627 Burr Brown OPA-627 Opamps in custom surface mounting boards to add the best dynamics and midrange performance closest to tube performance. These are the same opamps used in $10,000 machines. They are sonically the best made.

I'll take issue with that. True, the OPA627 is a very good sounding op amp, there's no denying it, but best ever? Hardly. I'd use an Analog Devices counterpart in preference any time of night or day. And have significant cash left in my pocket.

Point is, this is highly subjective, one man's meat is another man's poison. In my view, the OPA627 is unjustifiably expensive, as are most BB chips, which may explain why they were bought out by Texas Instruments, and are now called "The Tucson Operation". The name was kept, of course, it's too valuable to kill.

The reason why I asked is because a friend modded the DVD-3910 (which I also own, by the way) by replacing the op amps with Analog Devices chips, and to be sure, the difference is both very, very good and not overly expensive. He did do it himself, which also cut costs, and I do realize not everybody can or is willing to do it the same way.

I haven't heard their modded version, nor am I likely to (given that I live in Europe), but $2K+ seems like a rather tall bill for 7 hours' work, not losing sight of actual purchasing expenses.

Cheers,
DVV

 

[Sleestack]

I haven't heard their modded version, nor am I likely to (given that I live in Europe), but $2K+ seems like a rather tall bill for 7 hours' work, not losing sight of actual purchasing expenses.

Cheers,
DVV

Thanks for the input. I'm definitely aware that hyperbole is going to be a part of any company's marketing and sales. It does seem a bit expensive, however, they do have a solid reputation and I'm a bit cost insensitive at times. At this point I'm considering changing my order to exclude the center channel and add the tube stage to the L/R channels instead. My aggregate cost would be about the same. 99% of the 3910's time will be spent in a 2 channel setup, so doing the center channel seems to be a waste. Despite my disinclination to have a tubed CD player (b/c I have an EAR 864 tube preamp and several tube headphone amps), a little variety in my gear wouldn't hurt.

 

[DVV]

Thanks for the input. I'm definitely aware that hyperbole is going to be a part of any company's marketing and sales. It does seem a bit expensive, however, they do have a solid reputation and I'm a bit cost insensitive at times. At this point I'm considering changing my order to exclude the center channel and add the tube stage to the L/R channels instead. My aggregate cost would be about the same. 99% of the 3910's time will be spent in a 2 channel setup, so doing the center channel seems to be a waste. Despite my disinclination to have a tubed CD player (b/c I have an EAR 864 tube preamp and several tube headphone amps), a little variety in my gear wouldn't hurt.

I think I know what you mean.

For what it's worth, I purchased the 3910 precisely because of its two channel performance, because I do not have, nor am likely to in the near future, a HT setup. I find that sinking the equivalent sum of money into a two channel system is much more satisfying sonically.

Having heard the modded 3910 (friend's unit with changed op amps), I will no doubt do the same, since I have the required op amps on stock. Plus a few other tweaks.

This from a freak who designs his headphone amp to be able to deliver 5W into 8 ohms in pure Class A; consequently, typical headphones with impedances of 30-60 ohms, can't make the amp bat an eyelid for any effort to speak of. Hardly surprising, it uses 50W Motorola/ON Semiconductor output devices in a SEPP configuration. Pure dual mono, of course.

Cheers,
DVV

 

[Sleestack]

I think I know what you mean.

For what it's worth, I purchased the 3910 precisely because of its two channel performance, because I do not have, nor am likely to in the near future, a HT setup. I find that sinking the equivalent sum of money into a two channel system is much more satisfying sonically.

Having heard the modded 3910 (friend's unit with changed op amps), I will no doubt do the same, since I have the required op amps on stock. Plus a few other tweaks.

This from a freak who designs his headphone amp to be able to deliver 5W into 8 ohms in pure Class A; consequently, typical headphones with impedances of 30-60 ohms, can't make the amp bat an eyelid for any effort to speak of. Hardly surprising, it uses 50W Motorola/ON Semiconductor output devices in a SEPP configuration. Pure dual mono, of course.

Cheers,
DVV

Nice. I'm into headphones myself. My setups:

HD650s/Singlepower MPX3 amp

AKG K1000s/ EAR Yoshino V20 amp

ATH W1000s/ Musical Fidelity X-can v3 w X-DAC/PSU and 10 v3

I plan on using the 3910 with the AKG/EAR setup.

 

[Sleestack]

For those interested, I am cancelling the center channel and going for their ultimate 2 channel mod:

Part A: The new PCX-designed fully differential/balanced tube output buffer stage is installed, offering concurrent output via both RCAs and XLRs and its very own dedicated power supply pcb,and toroidal power transformer - three modules in total.

The tube output stage contains the following:

Two-tube capacitor-coupled circuit, which can use a variety of tubes including 6DJ8s, 6922s, 7308s or any of their derivatives. (The mod ships with Electro-Harmonix EH-6922s). It can also be used with the Russian super tube, the 6H30made famous by both BAT and then ARC.
Parts quality: 5uf Auricap output coupling caps with Rel-Cap TFT Teflon bypasses; premium Azuma gold-plated ceramic pcb tube sockets; Riken precision carbon comp resistors; Audio Note tantalum resistors; Cardas PCB-mount RCA jacks; Neutrik gold-plated XLR connectors
Multiple fully regulated power supplies all on their own distinct power supply pcb featuring BlackGate electrolytic caps in critical locations and International Rectifier Hexfred ultra-fast soft recovery diodes.
Custom-made 200% duty cycle, low noise, low stray field toroidal power transformer.

Part B: Our Level-2 mod is added to the first two (the 3rd is replaced by the tube output stage) stages of the Denon's combined analog output stage: the I-V current-to-voltage stage, the analog filter stage and the associated Denon power supply, which supplies these two stages.

We upgrade the hypercritical I-V and analog filter op amps by replacing the cheap stock surface-mount parts (currently about 50 cents each from JRC) with the very best dual op amps offered by Burr-Brown. These OPA-627-AUs are mounted to special smt-to-smt vertical adapters (which are 50 times more expensive than the stock part). These parts dramatically enhance both the unit's technical and subjective audio performance. The 3910 Ultimate mod still uses 4 of these dual op-amp modules (not 6 as used in the Level 2 since two are replaced by the tube output stage).

The output signal currently exits these stages via a minuscule tin/lead plated printed circuit board trace. We replace that withshielded interconnect and hookup wire which contains 99.999% pure, long-grain 23-awg solid-core silver DH Labs wire with the very best foamed Teflon tape-wrap insulation.
The critical signal path resistors (22 in all) are changed to precision Japanese made Riken Ohm carbon comp types with gold-plated copper leads to eliminate the cheap magnetic China-sourced metal-film resistors.
All critical caps are changed to the best film and electrolytic types:
5 x BlackGate FK and N Series caps replace the cheapest-qualityelectrolytic caps in the stock unit

14 x precision 1% polystyrene film and tin foil caps are installed in the analog filter stage, replacing the cheap tantalum caps in the stock unit

The power supply receives 9 x BlackGate FK, NX andSTD series electrolytic caps. These replace the cheap ceramic and/or generic electrolytics. All critical analog supply diodes (currently generic quality) are upgraded with ultra-fast soft-recovery Fred type diodes. We use 4 x Vishay-Telefunken and 5 x International Rectifier Hexfreds.


Part C: We install a new state-of-the-art "reference quality" Master Clock module and associated power supply. The Ultimate Mod incorporates the LC Audio X03 Master Clock module featuring over 93 discrete parts (many surface mounts) on a multilayer pcb. This new state of the art clock replaces a single cheap VCXO chip. We also add a custom-designed dedicated power supply for this module.

Part D: We add 2 sheets of SoundCoat to damp chassis resonance.
External vibrations are isolated via 4 x large compliant EAR Sorbothane feet
ERS EMI/RFI cloth is attached to critical locations to suppress stray EMI &RFI fields within the unit

Numerous ventilation holes are punched into the chassis and top cover to provide adequate airflow for the tubes, additional power transformer and additional power supply regulators for the new tube output stage. These vent holes are then covered with an expanded aluminum mesh for safety reasons.


We used WBT 4% lead-free silver solder throughout.

Bybee Slipstream Quantum Purifiers to the power supply, just after the AC line input.

 

[Mobius]

Very cool Sleestack. That seems to me like the right choice for what you're trying to accomplish. I was not really understanding why you were looking to do the center channel when you were saying you wanted better redbook CD performance. I know if I was doing this and I was gonna upgrade the center channel I'd also do the surround channels. So are you gonna replace the FR/FL on the multi channel inputs or the 2 channel inputs? Would you mind sharing some pictures of the unit once you get it back? Also are you gonna keep the 2 very nice CD players you have? Can't wait to hear your impressions once you get this thing back.

 

[Sleestack]

Very cool Sleestack. That seems to me like the right choice for what you're trying to accomplish. I was not really understanding why you were looking to do the center channel when you were saying you wanted better redbook CD performance. I know if I was doing this and I was gonna upgrade the center channel I'd also do the surround channels. So are you gonna replace the FR/FL on the multi channel inputs or the 2 channel inputs? Would you mind sharing some pictures of the unit once you get it back? Also are you gonna keep the 2 very nice CD players you have? Can't wait to hear your impressions once you get this thing back.

I was just a bit confused at first, thinking if I did the FL/FR channels, I could get a 5.1 mixed down through those 2 channels. After a bit of discussion, I realized that if i was only going to be using the player for 2 channel playback, that wasn't the way to go.

I will post pictures.

I'm keeping my Meridian, CD-1 and 5910. I have multiple audio setups throughout my house that "justify" keping several high end players around.

 

[Mobius]

Sleestack,

So did you get this thing back yet?

 

[Sleestack]

Sleestack,

So did you get this thing back yet?

End of this week. I ended up doing the Ultimate upgrade (w/ tube ouptut) and the center channel b/c I will be using it in a 5.1 audio only setup.

 

[miklorsmith]

Mods good!

I've been using a Modwright modded 5687 tube-based Music Hall player for about the last 2 1/2 years and love it. Tubes are the best thing to happen to CD playback ever.

 

[DR_AUDIO]

Mods depend

What you have downstream, so to speak will ceretainly affect any improvement in the mods. The weakest link of couse applies.
As an audio engineer I can tell you the profit margin is great for the Underwood mods.
As far as low level stages being class A, most op amps are class B or AB with very low bias. They can be driven class A with a simple 2 transistor output stage, which will improve the sound of any op. amp, with very little cost.