"mid range speaker" too "money no object speaker"

[WmAx]

Too bad they don't make the MBL111B anymore.

Oh, I did not realize this. I hope the replacement measures as superbly.

-Chris

 

[Davemcc]

If we are going to change the characteristics of a speaker. Why audition?

I guess it depends on how you define characteristics. I can't speak for Chris but my understanding is that he defines speaker characteristics by their measured parameters (resonance, on/off axis response, tuning frequency, etc). These characteristics are defined by the speakers physical construction and are not altered by electrical manipulation. These characteristics can only be altered by physical changes to the speakers themselves.

I further interpret Chris' position to be that if you know all the measured parameters of a speaker, there really is no point in auditioning. You will be able to tell if the construction and components are suitable for your purpose. If you choose to begin with a speaker with a lot of resonance, coloration or limited response, you are stuck dealing with the results of those characteristics regardless of how you try to manipulate the sound. However, if you start with a speaker with good measured characteristics, you may not like it's flat, neutral sound but you will be able to modify it's sound to any acoustic profile you choose because you are not fighting it's natural deficiencies to do so.

Edit - Wow, Chris posted 3 times while I was crafting this reply. So...

Chris, please let me know if I have a basic understanding of your position.

 

[mazersteven]

You will be able to tell if the construction and components are suitable for your purpose.

So this leads me to me next question

How do you tell from specs. Or what do you look for to tell of a speakers construction, and enclosure design offer low resonance?

If this needs it's own thread please PM me. I will start one.

 

[Davemcc]

So this leads me to me next question

How do you tell from specs. Or what do you look for to tell of a speakers construction, and enclosure design offer low resonance?

If this needs it's own thread please PM me. I will start one.

Here's an example from one of jaxvon's posts.

You can see the measured resonance in this chart and with some experience, you should be able to correlate this into a percieved sound for the speaker. If you wanted to alter this speaker to custom tailor it to your preference, your first task is to compensate for this resonance, which may or may not be possible.

Oddly, this graph is for the Era D4 which is one of my favorite speakers in it's unaltered form. If I were to start with a neutral, resonance free speaker I could eq it to make it sound like the D4 but I would have much more trouble making the D4 sound flat and resonance free.

 

[WmAx]

Chris, please let me know if I have a basic understanding of your position.

You are correct.

-Chris

 

[WmAx]

So this leads me to me next question

How do you tell from specs. Or what do you look for to tell of a speakers construction, and enclosure design offer low resonance?

If this needs it's own thread please PM me. I will start one.

Unfortunately, a thread can not cover the required information. A book with specifically condensed information dedicated to this subject might be sufficient.

To look at specific data sets(measurements) and be able to accurately ascertain the primary audible characteristics, one has to be familiar with a great deal of the founding perceptual research and how the measurements are made, and how they correlate to this perceptual research. It is a sufficiently complex and labor intensive subject(to both learn and implement properly in one's own use) that most so-called speaker designers do not even seem understand it sufficiently to use measurements to ascertain many audible characteristics with any degree of accuracy. I can only guess here that due to the much easier use of standard subjective design methods is more fun/convenient for most people.

-Chris

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Are we possibly putting too much emphasis on cabinet resonance?

I mean sure, no resonance would be ideal, but.....

For example, the Revel Salon 2 has cabinet resonance, yet it has an extremely flat frequency response (29Hz to 18kHz ±0.5dB), which is flatter than the no-resonance B&W 802D (34Hz – 28kHz ±3.0dB).

And, Audioholics staff don't even measure cabinet resonance at all, right?

Am I way off here?

 

[avaserfi]

Are we possibly putting too much emphasis on cabinet resonance?

I mean sure, no resonance would be ideal, but.....

The simple answer is no. If one's goal is maximum fidelity there can be no audible cabinet resonances.

This is a subject that was fairly well covered, considering the forum environment, in your own thread here. Note post five specifically. It should also be noted that panel resonances does not appear in typical frequency response data.

For example, the Revel Salon 2 has cabinet resonance, yet it has an extremely flat frequency response (29Hz to 18kHz ±0.5dB), which is flatter than the no-resonance B&W 802D (34Hz – 28kHz ±3.0dB).

One point to be made is that the Primus 360 is even more linear (above 100Hz) than both the 802D and Salon2, yet its massive amounts of resonance will cause far lower listener preference in this range.

And, Audioholics staff don't even measure cabinet resonance at all, right?

The reason many sources do not measure panel resonance behavior seems to be two primary reasons: lack of understanding and lack of equipment. Measuring absolute values (opposed to relative between two speakers) for panel resonance is not necessarily a cheap endeavor.

-Andrew

 

[snappy_snoopy]

Wow so cabinet resonance makes such a difference i did not know. Lol i mean i kind of place my hand on top of a speaker play it loud and if it wobbles itself across the floor or of a shelf i move onto the next one Not the most technically correct but for me its done the job so far Plus the B&W range especially the 800 range is a bit out of my price range right now .

 

[snappy_snoopy]

I also agree with Mazer, i would prefer to do the auditioning. Its half the fun walking through the store thinking to yourself which 2 you will walk home with tonight (only to have the misses give you an ear full later on). Plus having a colored speaker is much much cheaper (the sad reality i live in )

 

[Davemcc]

Plus having a colored speaker is much much cheaper (the sad reality i live in )

Oddly enough, that is not necessarily true. Chris' frequent recommendation of the Infinity Primus and Behringer speakers are examples of inexpensive speakers that meet the standards. The Behringer are fine as they are but the Primus need cabinet modifications to really shine since the drivers are very good but the cabinet is somewhat resonant. If the budget can be increased, there are also some B&W models that can perform with DSP calibration far above their price point. But really, a few hundred dollars can hook you up with audiophile sound.

I'm still at the point of listening to commercially available speakers, but it's not that I haven't been paying attention and reading the material presented by Chris, Andrew and others. I may get to that point someday but off the shelf components are where I'm at for the foreseeable future. Anybody with the time, basic woodworking skills and a willingness to learn acoustic theory and the use of a DSP can create an inexpensive system that rivals others far above their price point.

 

[3db]

I've said that before to and had mentioned B&Ws in a post about 3 weeks back and met even more resistance from Mazer than you have.

A good solid speaker cannot change the affects of bad room acoustics and if the room muddies up the response, there's nothing that can be done by the speaker .(except for preproceesing the signal to over come the bad acoustics but thats done upstream from the speaker and not the speaker itself) .

snoops, I think the big pink elephant in the room, is, well, the room. FWIW, I've heard some 802Ds in the worst room ever, I in fact, no joke, asked the dealer if the tweeters were blown.

Heard them elsewhere, and realized why these speakers are a benchmark of sorts.

So, I believe setup, and acoustics are just as important as the speakers chosen. I will take a 1k pair in a good room over a 20k pair in a bad room, very very very easily.

Takes some research, and some space, which could be hard to come by. For me, the most easily detectable improvement with speakers is simply transparency. Then, does the timbre of any instrument stay consistent throughout the range? BWs do this very well, IMO. Better than my electrostat hybrids, but I get a midrange transparency that I heartily enjoy, at the compromises of smaller sweetspot, more difficult space implementations, and even greater need for acoustical treatments.

 

[Alex2507]

The Behringer are fine as they are.

IIRC there are some recommended (minor & easy) tweaks for them as well that take them to the next level. Still, it's great to know which products stand apart at low price points.

 

[WmAx]

Oddly enough, that is not necessarily true. Chris' frequent recommendation of the Infinity Primus and Behringer speakers are examples of inexpensive speakers that meet the standards. The Behringer are fine as they are but the Primus need cabinet modifications to really shine since the drivers are very good but the cabinet is somewhat resonant. If the budget can be increased, there are also some B&W models that can perform with DSP calibration far above their price point. But really, a few hundred dollars can hook you up with audiophile sound.

The Behringer and Primus speakers are suggested at price points and the B2030P could even be used and controlled with a DSP xover/EQ and twin subs to get very respectable SQ. But they can not compare to the 802D in this same capacity(controlled by a DSP unit). The 802D has far less timbre distortion/resonance as compared to the B2030P, and in addition, the 802D has greater dynamic ability and is of course a full range speaker system.

-Chris

 

[gus6464]

So what would be the best buys within the following categories?

<$1000
$1000-$2000
$2000+
$5000+

Now assuming you are going to use a DSP and crossover in order to shape the sound to one's liking and using dual stereo subs. (subs not included in price)

Would it be safe to say that these would be the tickets?

<$1000 Behringer BP2030
Don't have measurements on these

$1000-$2000 Paradigm Signature S1
http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/paradigm_signature_s1_v2/
http://www.audio-ideas.com/reviews/loudspeakers/paradigm-s1.html

The measurements of up to 30 degrees off axis on these speakers are amazing.

$2000+ B&W 805S
http://www.stereophile.com/loudspeakerreviews/168/index7.html

$5000+ KEF 201/2
http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/kef_201-2/
http://www.stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/708kef/index4.html

 

[snappy_snoopy]

what do you guys use to measure cabinet resonance ?

 

[R-Carpenter]

You could use an accelerometer or a microphone with dedicated software.
Learning to design and build your own speakers is not an easy task and requires tremendous amount of time to learn even the basics. I've been doing it for quite some time and my advise is: unless it's going to be a very passionate hobby for a long long time, don't waist your time. Also consider a cabinetmaking aspect of the speaker building. I myself is a professional furniture maker so this particular aspect was nonexistent.
Listening V.S. Measured response.
First of all, you need to be more or less a pro to make sense of the measurements. Most of the manufacturers will not post distortion or on-off-axis response of the speaker. Some speakers with flat FR can sound horrible and some speakers with ragged FR can sound quite lovely. There are many factors involved, including placement of the speakers in the room, size of the room and surroundings.
Some speakers are designed to be placed against back wall, some will need to be 2ft away.
Generally I would recommend to look for a speaker with flattest FR you could find, lowest distortion you could get. Unfortunately it's almost impossible to do for an average consumer.
Fortunately thou we all have a very good reference: live sound.
Go to a live Jazz performance, Opera or listen to someone playing violin in the subway. Then go and listen to the speakers. I haven't personally heard anything below 6k on the commercial market that comes close to a real thing. The good news is, if aren't very picky, a 2k pair of studio monitors can create a realistic enough performance to be perfectly happy. You just need to listen to as many speakers as you can, bring a well recorded material with you and listen to particular parts on it.
Do you hear how far the cello is from the wall? Do you hear air coming out from pipe organ or a pick on the strings? Things like that. Guitar should sound like a guitar and kick drum should kick.
Speakers are yet a weakest link in the chain, so don't buy in to a claim that Speaker A will sound so much better with Amp X and CD player Z.

 

[snappy_snoopy]

Just curious thats all i am an electrical engineer (or about to be anyway a few weeks away from graduating) the thought of some calculations or new measurement equipment excites me more than anything An accelerometer is a good idea. I can source one and program a microcontroller fairly easily might have to give that a try when some more money comes in. Anyway thanks for your post i am only starting to learn about all the speaker aspects at the moment and how you technically classify them rather than what the manufacturer states which is never enough for me in the first place to keep me satisfied.

Either way i would never even consider building a speaker more interested in measuring what i already got we will see how that goes. I am lacking the woodwork skills to make anything decent lol