Mid-bass missing from my B&W 683s - Fixable?

jschwa

jschwa

Audiophyte
I just bought Bower & Wilkins 683s and got them setup in my apartment. The high to mid range sounds fantastic. Very wide and realistic. As you get to the lower end of the midrange something is missing.

I have my old speakers still setup on a different channel so that I could a/b test. They are old Technics (picture below). I replaced all the speakers, so it's really just a Technics cabinet filled with new speakers.

They are hooked up to a Yamaha htr-5240 amp with 70 watts per channel. The music is coming from my computer and an m-audio Firewire 410 is acting as the DAC.

Here is the test I ran:

I played Fleet Foxes - Helplessness Blues, which is my go to reference traffic.

When I play both speaker paris separately, the B&Ws are clearly better. The Technics sound narrow and a bit muddy by comparison. When I play all four paris at once it sounds incredible. The Technics have something in the mid-bass range that the B&Ws lack. When you play all four at once and then cut the Technics, it leaves behind a giant hole in the audio.

I've tested this on a lot of different styles of music like rock and electronic. It's not a big issue there. It's really glaring on acoustic and classical music. Specifically the lower harmonics of string instruments like guitars and cellos

Is this just how the B&W 683s are? Is there something I can do to fix the issue?

 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I've been through this as well and I think I know what you may be hearing. Back in the late 90s I moved from some big box speakers that I had rebuilt completely and they had a lot of slam and oomph in the midrange that my new smaller speakers seemed to lack. I stuck with the new ones anyway because they sounded cleaner and that was the key - going back and forth between them for a while I came up with the fact that the old ones had a hump in the midrange that was either put there intentionally to make them sound that way or they were simply inaccurate. I suspect if you take a sweep of the two speakers, the B&Ws will measure better and be closer to how it "should" sound, while the older speakers may have had that bump in the midrange to make them sound more pleasing. Just a theory.
 
M

Mo Noyz

Banned
I actually agree with that completely. I had an old pair of Realistic Optimus 1's from the 70's that were the exact same way. Can't recall what I replaces them with, but couldn't believe how "wimpy" the new speakers sounded as far as lower-to-mid bass went.

Oddly enough, I listened to those same Optimus 1's many moons later and wondered to myself, "how did you ever think these sounded good?!"

We spend a lot of time listening to a certain sound and it becomes our "own signature" sound. Sometimes it's horrifying in retrospect, but hey, it's OUR horrifying! :)
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
When I play both speaker paris separately, the B&Ws are clearly better. The Technics sound narrow and a bit muddy by comparison. When I play all four paris at once it sounds incredible. The Technics have something in the mid-bass range that the B&Ws lack. When you play all four at once and then cut the Technics, it leaves behind a giant hole in the audio.

I've tested this on a lot of different styles of music like rock and electronic. It's not a big issue there. It's really glaring on acoustic and classical music. Specifically the lower harmonics of string instruments like guitars and cellos

Is this just how the B&W 683s are? Is there something I can do to fix the issue?
First of all I can't be certain you have anything to fix. You have old Far Eastern speakers that were never good to start with, and now you have put in drivers, not designed for that box and more importantly the crossovers. So you can guarantee you have been listening to very flawed speakers. So we are dealing with an issue of someone with an audio reference point out on an extreme spectrum

However there is an issue in all this that comes up here regularly.

Speakers used to have large drivers like your Technics and wide cabinets. Now speakers have one or more small drivers and narrow cabinets. This is far from driven only by aesthetics. If you have a large baffle then you have a lot of reflections the cause peaks and nulls in the response, and as you have noted leads to poor imaging.

However the narrow baffle leads to progressive bass loss according to this formula: -
<small>f[SUB]3[/SUB] = 380 / W[SUB]B[/SUB]</small>
<small>
(Wb is the baffle width in feet.)
</small>

<tbody>
</tbody>
So this allows you to work out were the frequency tapers at 6 db per octave for any given speaker. This f3 point, where the response is 3 db down, occurs at the transition point where the speaker changes from a half space to a full space radiator.

Now the crossover should be designed to compensate for this loss. This comes at a price, and the price is progressive drop in impedance to allow more power to be drawn from the amp to compensate for this. For narrow front cabinets this requires a power increase just in the range where acoustic power demands are highest in the first place. This demand is often more than a lot of amps can cope with, especially lower end receivers like yours. In addition speaker cones are inefficient acoustic couplers to the room and smaller cones less efficient than larger ones as the frequency drops. The increase in power means more power in the voice coil and more heating, and therefore thermal compression in lees expensive and robust drivers.

Having said all that, B & W tend to have the most complete baffle step loss compensation. That is why in general their speakers present more difficult loads to the amp than other brands, with pretty much all their speakers dropping below four ohms where the power really is.

So you are likely to get improvement with a more potent amplifier, that is happy with loads at least to four ohms and a little below.

Classical music presents big problems, as the power required to reproduce all the cellos, double basses, trombones, tubas and tymps, largely falls into the range we are talking about. That is why really good speakers are such expensive and formidable creations. There are very, very few speakers than can produce the full wallop of a large symphony orchestra, or large pipe organ.

To do that you have be persistent and a few bubbles away from the norm by quite a few standard deviations. To that end I have constructed dual transmission lines to support the drivers over the two and a half octaves in a highly controlled and damped fashion. Baffle step compensation is provided not by passive crossover, but by active powered feed forward electronics. In these speakers, the smaller divers are spared the stress of baffle step compensation and it is handed to the upper 10" driver. Both 10" drivers are engaged below 60 Hz. Total power 750 watts to each speaker from three amp channels.




I took this measurement after high power conditioning and playing the test tones as loud as I could stand.



Even at that stress distortion is very acceptable and for a speaker very low in the bass.




The point is that for most, and me included away from this system, you have to dial back your expectations. However with your B & W speakers I would recommend much more competent amplification.

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jschwa

jschwa

Audiophyte
j_garcia, Mo Noyz,

It's very helpful to know that you went through this same thing. Thank you.

I swept the room and the B&Ws are flat and the Technics have a small bump at the 250 range. It sounds like I just need to recalibrate my sound signature as you say.

TLS Guy,

I need to spend a lot more time taking in your response. A lot of people told me to switch out the amp, but this is the first explanation as to why. Thank you for taking so much time to help me out.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
When you play all four at once and then cut the Technics, it leaves behind a giant hole in the audio.
It is completely fixable. Just add a sub or two. :D

When you play both the B&W and Technics simultaneously, the mid-bass is boosted about 3dB higher or more = Double bass.

I don't see a sub in the picture. When you add a sub to the B&W and XO at 80Hz (also try 100Hz), what happens?

Do you have an extra amp lying around?

Try using the Technics as passive subwoofers. Feed the sub output from the AVR to the extra amp. Then feed the amp to the Technics. Now the Technics are being used as subs. See how that sounds. :D
 
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L

Lewis Sheppard

Audioholic
I have no idea how to fix this, however, a subwoofer may fix this.

Also, those B&W's look fantastic :)
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
It is completely fixable. Just add a sub or two. :D

When you play both the B&W and Technics simultaneously, the mid-bass is boosted about 3dB higher or more = Double bass.

I don't see a sub in the picture. When you add a sub to the B&W and XO at 80Hz (also try 100Hz), what happens?

Do you have an extra amp lying around?

Try using the Technics as passive subwoofers. Feed the sub output from the AVR to the extra amp. Then feed the amp to the Technics. Now the Technics are being used as subs. See how that sounds. :D
Those older speakers with large drivers do not make good subs, they pretty much cut out below 60 HZ.

Now the OP was complaining about cellos. And this highlights the problem of reproducing classical music. Very few instruments in the orchestra have even their lowest fundamentals in sub range. For classical music a sub does you very little good.

Cellos, typmpani, trombones are all out of sub range. Only the double bass, harp and contrabassoon get into sub range. The piano does at 27 Hz. The double bass and tuba only just. Most pipe organs only go down to 34 Hz and really big ones occasionally touch 16 Hz.

<center> Instrument</center><center> Lower Limit </center><center> Approx. Upper Limit</center>
<center>Violin</center><center> G3(196.0 Hz)</center><center>E7(2637.0 Hz)</center>
<center>Viola</center><center>C3(130.8 Hz)</center><center>C6(1046.5 Hz)</center>
<center>Cello</center><center>C2(65.4 Hz)</center><center>E5(659.3 Hz)</center>
<center>Double Bass</center><center>E1(41.2 Hz)</center><center>B3(246.9 Hz)</center>
<center>Flute</center><center>C4 (261.6 Hz)</center><center>C7(2093.0 Hz)</center>
<center>Oboe </center><center>Bb3(233 Hz)</center><center>F6(1396.9 Hz)</center>
<center>English Horn</center><center>Eb3(155.6 Hz)</center><center>Bb5(932.3 Hz)</center>
<center>Clarinet(Bb)</center><center>D3(146.8 Hz)</center><center>Bb6(1864.7 Hz)</center>
<center>Bass Clarinet(Bb)</center><center> D2(73.4 Hz)</center><center>F5(698.5 Hz)</center>
<center>Bassoon</center><center>Bb1(58.3 Hz)</center><center>Bb5(932.3Hz)</center>
<center>Contrabassoon</center><center>Bb0(29.1Hz)</center><center>Eb3(155.6 Hz)</center>
<center>Horn(double, F & Bb)</center><center>B1(61.7 Hz)</center><center>F5(698.5 Hz)</center>
<center>Trumpet (Bb)</center><center>E3(164.8 Hz)</center><center>Bb5(932.3Hz)</center>
<center>Trombone(tenor)</center><center>E2(82.4 Hz)</center><center>Bb4(466.2 Hz)</center>
<center>Trombone(bass)</center><center>B1(61.7 Hz)</center><center>Bb4(466.2 Hz)</center>
<center>Timpani</center><center>F2(87.3 Hz)</center><center>F4(349.2 Hz)</center>
<center>Harp </center><center>B0(30.9 Hz)</center><center>G#7(3322.4 Hz)</center>

<tbody>
</tbody>


What an orchestra does have, is almost all its power between 60 Hz and 2.5 kHz. Even at that, most of the power is below the half full space transition for most modern speakers.

My researches have shown this to represent a large problem on multiple fronts for realistic reproduction, and is a major reason why so few speakers really sound like an orchestra and just about never give you the full punch of a large symphony orchestra. My solution to the problem is totally unique. I have searched in vain for another example. If you look at the frequency response I posted you will see that the dual lines to not flinch in this range even at high power, and maintain low distortion. I'm yet to hear another set of speakers that really gets this right.
 
zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
They are hooked up to a Yamaha htr-5240 amp with 70 watts per channel. The music is coming from my computer and an m-audio Firewire 410 is acting as the DAC.

When I play both speaker paris separately, the B&Ws are clearly better. The Technics sound narrow and a bit muddy by comparison. When I play all four paris at once it sounds incredible. The Technics have something in the mid-bass range that the B&Ws lack. When you play all four at once and then cut the Technics, it leaves behind a giant hole in the audio.

Is this just how the B&W 683s are? Is there something I can do to fix the issue?
Well, I would change out that Yamaha receiver - the 683 are somewhat difficult to drive.
They also have that impedance swing and a somewhat low sensitivity.

Measurements
B&W 683 Surround Speaker System Measurements | Sound & Vision

Note this:
Model 683
Sensitivity: 86dB/2.83V/m
Minimum impedance: 3.5Ω at 100Hz
Nominal impedance: 6Ω (below 6Ω from 78Hz to 900Hz)

 
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zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
Try using the Technics as passive subwoofers. Feed the sub output from the AVR to the extra amp. Then feed the amp to the Technics. Now the Technics are being used as subs. See how that sounds. :D
Like a train coming down a track > mushy boom, boom boom mushy boom, boom mushy boom mushy boom!:)
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
At this point, we're just trying to rule out the problem, not indefinitely solve the problem.

I don't think we are 100% sure it is even the "mid-bass" or cello or trombone that is "missing".

Over on AVS the OP posted the FR:
Mid-bass missing from my B&W 683s - Fixable?

Not sure how accurate that is, though.

The OP says that ADDING the Technics mitigated the "missing" sound. So just trying to rule out if it is actually only something below 100Hz.
 
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zieglj01

zieglj01

Audioholic Spartan
Well I guess, that Technics and B&W go together like tuna fish and strawberries!
 
C

canelli

Audioholic
I started off with the 683s. I ended up adding a sub and external amp. Each addition made a difference. I was using the Pioneer SC-05, and its issues were documented here (SC-09 review). Now, I am in a new house and all my speakers (Kef R300s, CM9s, CMC2, 683s) are for sale. Funny how things come around.
 
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