Measured ANSI Contrast vs Manufacturer's Contrast

AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I've been mostly an Audioholics. So I usually pay closer attention to measurements like SNR, THD, SINAD, THD+N, Crosstalk, FR, etc.

But when it comes to video, we see manufacturers pretty much do the same thing as audio companies - they provide numbers that might be misleading.

First, what are the human limits on audio and video spectrum?

Most of us know about the usual 20Hz-20kHz audio spectrum.

But what's the human eye limit on CONTRAST RATIO?

Some people say the max human eye contrast ratio is 800:1.

I heard one video expert who has measured video equipment (Projectors, TVs) for 40 years say that the highest ANSI Contrast ratio he has ever measured was 450:1.

So why do companies claim their contrast ratio is Infinity:1, 3 million:1, 2.5 million:1, 1 million:1, etc. ?

Based on my limited reading about this topic, it seems like "ANSI Contrast Ratio" is the industry standard for contrast ratio just like "ANSI Lumen" is the industry standard for brightness. So why don't we see companies list the ANSI Contrast?






Anyway, I got these ANSI CONTRAST from Cine4Home:

Epson 9400/6050UB: 455:1
http://cine4home.de/epson-eh-tw9400-in-den-teststudios-eingetroffen-erste-ergebnisse/

Epson 9300/5040UB: 410:1
http://cine4home.de/grosses-test-special-epson-eh-tw7300-vs-eh-tw9300-w/

Sony 760ES and 260ES: 360:1
http://cine4home.de/test-sony-vpl-vw760-endlich-erste-messergebnisse/

Sony GTZ380: 320:1
http://cine4home.de/erstes-test-special-sony-vpl-gtz380-gigantismus-ein-ueberlebensgrosser-beamer-fuer-nur-ueberlebensgrosses-heimkino/

JVC X7500: 290:1
http://cine4home.de/heute-bei-uns-die-ersten-wahrheiten-ueber-den-jvc-dla-x5500-x7500/

JVC NX5: 190:1
http://cine4home.de/11881-2/

JVC NX9: 145:1
http://cine4home.de/neues-jahr-erstes-messergebnis-telegramm-zum-jvc-dla-nx9/
 
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T

Trebdp83

Audioholic Ninja
They advertise non real world numbers the way AVR makers do when advertising wattage and one needs to do a bit of homework before making a purchase.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
They advertise non real world numbers the way AVR makers do when advertising wattage and one needs to do a bit of homework before making a purchase.
Yeah. That Cine4Home website is German. Thank gods for Google Translate. :D

Other than Cine4Home, I haven't seen any other websites that actually measure ANSI Contrast.

So for most people doing homework, that usually means reading SUBJECTIVE reviews. This means plenty of bias and opinions.

Isn't that kind of like seeing some reviews claiming that the Marantz AV8805A pre-pro sounds better than the Denon X8500HA AVR, even though we know (because of ASR) that the Denon AVR actually measures better than the Marantz separates Pre-pro?

Good news is that based on what I've seen, plenty of brands (Epson, Vivitek, BenQ, Optoma, Sony) have good measured ANSI Contrast ratios.

Now let's see if we can find any websites that actually measure ANSI Contrast for these expensive OLED TVs that also claim Infinity:1 Contrast ratios! :D
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Always viewed the contrast numbers like PMPO watts compared to what we'd like to see....
 
BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Contrast ratio has been discussed to death over at AVS Forum. Much like audio, it can get very technical and it can be extremely misleading.

First, it is true that the human eye has a limited capacity at any moment to see beyond a certain contrast ratio. But, like many projectors, the human eye has an iris that makes the range that we can actually perceive much, MUCH higher than what we can see in any single moment. So, when a scene gets darker, our ability to discern shadow detail grows if the entire scene is dark. Same with brighter scenes and determining highlights. This is how we can see well in both bright and dark environments... up to a point. Our eyes adjust.

This is also why ANSI contrast is useful, but also useless. It doesn't show how a projector can do when an entire scene is very dark. JVC, while they often suck at ANSI, does extremely well, and better than anyone, with darker scenes. Their iris closes down and they are able to show black levels and shadow details that others simply can't match. They also tend to do better than most with a bit of highlights on screen. But, then they blow out the black levels when half the screen is white, like a checkerboard ANSI contrast pattern. They don't even try to screw up the rest of their amazing image quality to hit a random target number.

But, yes, you are then left with different contrast ratio measurements, most of which end up lying. Some review sites do measure different contrast ratios in different ways. Getting a full on/off CR as an example, but much of it is subjective and should be done by reviewers who are familiar with the content being presented. I certainly notice how much better the contrast is on my JVC over the BenQ that I had previously that simply had no way to bring down the greyish black levels it delivered at any time, but perhaps had a similar, or even better, ANSI contrast.

Much like 'all channels driven' is a poor way to measure amplifier power, ANSI contrast is a poor way to really get an understanding of the actual contrast you should expect out of any projector. It certainly would put JVC near the bottom of a list which makes no sense based upon owner reviews and professional reviews of the products they deliver.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
BARCO White Paper 2018:

Sequential contrast
The easiest configuration in which to measure contrast ratio is one where the full screen is white when measuring the maximum luminance and the full screen is black when measuring the minimum luminance, and where no ambient light is present. This is called the “sequential contrast” (or sometimes “off-to-on contrast”). When no other specification is mentioned in the brochure or spec sheet of a projector, it is typically the sequential contrast that is being used. The good thing about this definition is that it is easy to measure and hence reproduce in the field. The actual quantification can also happen quickly with one brightness measurement on white, one on black and a calculation of the ratio between the two. The downside of the method is that it is so easy to do that it is also simple to do it badly (intentionally or accidentally):

• The ambient light level needs to be absolutely zero. Even the smallest amount of light leaking from the auditorium, for example, will be added to the measured dark level and can ruin the calculated ratio. [2]

• The light level on screen when measuring black needs to be representative and correct for the black “color” that the projector will put on the screen in normal operation. There have been cases in the past where manufacturers switched the unit’s light source off (or mechanically blocked it) when measuring the darkest possible black. This of course reduces the measured luminance (we will later explain why) and artificially boosts the contrast ratio.[2]

• When measuring white, the on-screen light level also needs to be correctly configured. Projectors have a so-called native brightness: the total amount of lumens they can generate, without taking into account system calibration to cinema specifications. When operated in the field, the system is configured to meet DCI target colors, including that of white. The brightness of this calibrated white point can be slightly lower than the native white point. Since the brightness of the calibrated white point depends on parameters outside the projector (e.g. the color of the walls and seats in the auditorium), using the native brightness makes things more reproducible. That is why it is typically used when specifying and measuring the sequential contrast spec, to make comparison possible.

ANSI contrast
A more representative and accurate parameter for quantifying the contrast ratio is the so-called ANSI contrast, sometimes also called “checkerboard contrast” or “simultaneous contrast”. In this method, you again measure the brightest whites and darkest blacks, but in a setup that is much more representative of how the system will eventually be used in reality and perceived by the audience. The ANSI contrast measurement is also more difficult to cheat on when trying to boost the results.

When measuring the ANSI contrast, the pattern on screen is not full-screen white or black, but a 4x4 checkerboard pattern consisting of 8 white and 8 black squares. The black again needs to be the same level as when showing black content: since you are at the same time displaying white squares, playing tricks by dimming the light source will not help as the bright zones will be equally impacted.

This contrast measurement method is much more representative of how the image will eventually be perceived:

• Any scene, animated or camera-shot will contain a combination of bright and dark zones. No movie content consists of full-screen white or full-screen black. You could debate whether the average brightness of 50% of the ANSI pattern is closest to reality as possible, but it has some other practical benefits. The different squares are big enough to be measured accurately with a standard luminance meter: if you would go to e.g. an average brightness of 10%, the white patches would be too small for doing accurate and consistent measurements.

• The fact that you project white and black simultaneously on-screen means you take into account reflections and flare of the projector and the room. Light intended for the white squares will find its way and fall onto the black squares where they will raise the light level and reduce the contrast ratio [3]. This is what happens on real content, so the test pattern should reflect the phenomenon. This light leakage has its origin both inside and outside the projector. Inside the projector, light scatters in the optical elements and leaves the lens in places where it is not intended to be. This is impacted by the material quality of the glass elements, light absorbers and coatings inside the projector; but also by the inherent light modulating technology used (DMD, LCD, LCOS …). Light leakage outside the projector is defined by properties of the auditorium: scattering in the porthole window; the color of the walls; the position of the screen and audience, etc. Careful room design can help minimize these effects and boost the contrast ratio [2]. Note that the two symptoms will be visible when projecting real movie content, but not (or much less) when projecting full screen black such as in the sequential contrast measurement. It will be completely absent when tricking the sequential contrast measurement by artificially blocking the light. This confirms that the sequential contrast is not a very representative way to assess perceived contrast.

• In the ANSI contrast measurement method, the measured brightness of the eight white squares is averaged out to come to the peak brightness defining the contrast. The same applies to the measured black levels on the 8 dark squares. This is again a step forward compared to the sequential contrast (where you only measure in the center of the screen) since you take into account the full screen and image surface to quantify the contrast ratio. Again, in real setups, the audience also perceives the whole screen. Things like screen gain or side effects caused by the walls closest to the image borders can create a spread in the actual contrast ratio across the screen surface. This spread is reflected in the average ANSI measurement, not in the sequential contrast metric.

As mentioned above, a projector’s ANSI contrast spec can be more representative of the actual perceived contrast, since it comes closest to how the system will be used in reality. A projector with a good sequential contrast can look very bad in an average room. A projector with a good ANSI contrast will keep its image quality in most setups; although it is important to remember that a badly designed room (high ambient light, many reflections,…) will ruin any experience.

This link with the boundary and usage conditions also means that any ANSI contrast spec is linked to the conditions it was measured in. Projector manufacturers will typically measure it in a dark room with minimal scatter and reflection caused by the room. This means that the value measured by the customer in the field can differ, specifically due to changes introduced by the auditorium. This is called the in situ contrast [1].

Quantification
When thinking about “the contrast ratio” of a digital cinema projector, people typically think about a number around 2,000:1. When linking this to the numbers mentioned above, this is the sequential contrast of a mainstream DLP-based DCI-compliant projector (which make up >85% of the market). In recent years, the topic of HDR (or high dynamic range) has gotten more attention in cinema [4], which has led to new contrast ratio numbers going around. Some high contrast DLP projectors have been presented with numbers exceeding 5000:1; which is again a unit of sequential contrast. LCoS based projectors claim numbers exceeding 8000:1; these are also sequential contrast.

So, how do we bring ANSI contrast into the mix? It is important to realize the significant impact of internal light scattering. This effect causes the ANSI contrast to always be lower than the sequential contrast. Where a mainstream sequential contrast is around 2000:1, with high-end projectors exceeding 5000:1; these numbers are a factor 5-10 lower for ANSI contrast. A projector with an ANSI contrast of 1000:1 is an exceptionally good projector.

It is also important to understand that the impact of the internal projector technology also causes a de-correlation between sequential and ANSI contrast. A projector with a high sequential contrast can have a very low ANSI contrast, due to the technological choices in the projector architecture. A projector with a mainstream sequential contrast can outperform a premium model when comparing the ANSI contrast. This can be seen typically e.g. when comparing DLP-technology to LCoS. The former holds its ANSI contrast better where for LCoS it has been measured to be a factor 50 or more below the sequential contrast. [3]

Conclusion
With the interest for HDR growing in cinema, so has the importance of a properly specified contrast ratio. When evaluating and interpreting “the contrast ratio” of a cinema projector, it is important to know that both sequential and ANSI contrast exist. The former is the easiest to measure (on site) and therefore the most frequently-used by manufacturers and integrators. However, the ANSI contrast is a much more representative metric. It takes careful consideration of the measurement conditions, but shows a better correlation with the perceived contrast by the movie-going audience. In its high contrast models, Barco has started including the ANSI contrast ratio as a specification.

References
[1] Understanding Digital Cinema: A Professional Handbook - Charles S. Swartz, book, 2004.
[2] Contrast ratio explained,
, 2013.
[3] The perceived intra-frame dynamic range in a cinema environment – D. Maes, SMPTE Annual Technical Conference & Exhibition, 2016.
[4] The ins and outs of High Dynamic Range (HDR) in cinema, https://www.barco.com/en/News/Post/2017/2/16/The-ins-and-outs-of-High-Dynamic-Range-HDR-in-cinema, 2017.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Tech Talk by Evan Powell

Ignore Misleading Contrast Specs


Evan Powell | Jun 7, 2017 | ProjectorCentral.com |

Of all the specs published for projectors, the Full On/Off Contrast spec is the most meaningless and misleading spec on the page. Contrast specs don't tell you much about what you'll see on the screen, and they certainly don't tell you anything about how one projector will look if compared to another side by side.

Nevertheless, since buyers usually cannot see and compare projectors before they buy, they get consumed with contrast ratings for obvious reasons. Who doesn't want a high contrast projector? And manufacturers are well aware of the consumer's sensitivity to contrast specs, so they've had to pump them to absurd levels just to stay competitive.

What is Projector Contrast Ratio?
Contrast ratio in its simplest form is the ratio of the light reflected from an all white image and an all black image. So a projector with a 3000:1 contrast ratio means that the white image is 3000 times brighter than the black image. The higher the contrast ratio, the more detail you can see on the projected image whether it is numbers, pictures, graphs, text, or video. Contrast is what makes it possible for us to see the subtle shades of colors. So good contrast is all about seeing the details.
What is the Best Way to Measure Projector Contrast Ratio?
There are two common methods of measuring contrast -- Full On/Off and ANSI Contrast. Full On/Off is easy to manipulate, it produces misleading numbers, and is commonly used in the industry. The ANSI method is difficult to manipulate, produces very small but much more valid and informative numbers, and is rarely used in the industry other than by manufacturers in specialty niches. Let's take a look at the difference between them.

A Full On/Off Contrast reading measures the ratio between the brightness of a solid white, 100 IRE test pattern ("full on"), and the brightness of a solid black, 0 IRE test pattern ("full off"). A contrast ratio of 10,000:1 indicates that the meter is reading the white as being ten thousand times brighter than the black.The ANSI Contrast method does not use the 100 IRE white and 0 IRE black screens. Instead, it uses a single checkerboard pattern of 16 rectangles, eight white and eight black. The brightness values of all the white squares are measured and averaged, and the brightness of the black squares are measured and averaged. The ratio of the averaged white readings to the black readings is the ANSI contrast ratio.

Why Contrast Specs are Terrible
Where projectors are concerned, the Full On/Off and ANSI methods yield radically different numbers, and the ANSI reading is always substantially lower (not even in the same ballpark, actually). The reason is that, though we usually get similar readings between the white 100 IRE test pattern and the white rectangles on the checkerboard pattern, the black readings on the ANSI checkerboard are always higher than black readings on a full black 0 IRE test pattern.

Why is that? First, there is always the potential for light scatter in the projector's light engine and lens when anything other than black is being projected. When the projector is displaying a fully black 0 IRE test pattern, there is no light to scatter internally that could compromise the black level. On the other hand, when the checkerboard is being displayed, the picture is 50% white and there is a lot of light being projected. A little bit of that light gets reflected and bounced around inside the zoom lens or light engine and ends up compromising the black rectangles in the projected image. In addition, any dust that happens to be floating in the path of projected light will cause light scatter.

But, you ask .... can a bit of light scatter have that much effect on the ultimate contrast ratio? Absolutely. For example, let's say our meter tells us that "full on" white on the 100 IRE screen is 1000 units and "full off" black on the 0 IRE screen is 0.05 units. That would be a contrast ratio of 20,000:1.

Now when we switch to the ANSI checkerboard, we still get 1000 units on the whites, but due to light scatter we might get 0.5 units on the blacks instead of 0.05. In this case, the contrast ratio just dropped by a factor of ten to 2,000:1 with a relatively subtle, almost invisible change in black level that would be imperceptible to the human eye except in a very dark environment. It is a change to the black level that would be neutralized by any reflected light in the room. When seen in these terms, the difference between 20,000:1 and 2,000:1 contrast doesn't seem like the enormous gap that the numbers themselves would suggest.

The fact is, even tiny changes to black levels have major impact on contrast ratios. Everyone has noticed the little red EXIT sign in a "dark" commercial movie theater. That sign can easily put out enough light to cut effective contrast on the screen by 50%, compared to what it would be if the theater were perfectly dark.

Auto Irises and such...
The lamp is situated behind the flaps, which can be spun by the servo motor on the right to regulate the light output.

When it comes to manipulating Full On/Off Contrast ratio, the huge factor is the behavior of the projector itself. Many projectors adjust their light output based on the average light level in a given scene. They can do this by adjusting the lamp power on the fly, or by opening and closing an auto iris, or by shutting off a laser. So when a dark scene is being projected, lumen output can be instantly curtailed to make the black look blacker. Then when a bright scene comes along, lumen output will be returned to full power in order to achieve a more brilliant image. On most projectors that have these features, these adjustments to lumen output happen so quickly that the viewer rarely notices them.

Now, these brightness altering features work and are desirable, we're not saying they are a bad thing. It's just that they confuse the contrast rating game. When projectors adjust on the fly in this manner, the Full On/Off spec ends up measuring the blackest black in a dark scene and comparing it to the brightest white in a bright scene, which never actually happens simultaneously in any single frame of video. Some manufacturers call this Dynamic Contrast instead of Full On/Off to clarify that the contrast rating is being augmented by these dynamic lumen adjustments in the projector.

This is where the ANSI contrast method comes in handy. Since the ANSI method uses a single frame of rectangles that is 50% white and 50% black, it takes the projector's ability to dynamically alter lumen output from frame to frame out of the equation. As a result, ANSI contrast numbers are far lower than Dynamic contrast specs. In theory, they give you a better idea of what you should see in any given frame of video.

Of course, the ANSI rating does not indicate anything about the beneficial effects of dynamic lumen adjustment, so you can argue that it does not tell the whole story either.

Taking an Accurate ANSI Contrast Reading
As much as we would love to, ProjectorCentral does not take ANSI contrast measurements during reviews. The reason is that an accurate measurement of ANSI contrast requires either a pitch black room, with all walls, carpets, ceilings, clothing, etc., being totally black and non-reflective, or a pitch black tunnel or tent designed specifically for this purpose. Why? Because if the light from the white checkerboard squares reflects off anything in the projection space it will lighten the black squares, which invalidates the contrast reading. The only legitimate ANSI contrast reading, at least one that we would want to publish, is one done by a professional lab equipped specifically to do this type of testing.

How big is the numeric difference between the contrast methods?
In general, Dynamic contrast ratings generate the largest numbers, Full On/Off with dynamic features turned off will generate numbers lower than Dynamic, and ANSI will produce very tiny numbers relative to what consumers are used to seeing. How small? Well, in the home theater world where contrast is favored over lumen output, an ANSI rating of 300:1 would be average, 700:1 would be very good, and 1000:1 would be stellar. But how many consumers would buy a home theater projector with a 700:1 contrast rating? Not many, in today's competitive marketplace of million-to-one contrast ratings.

Christie Digital is one of the few vendors that actually publishes all three Dynamic, Full On/Off and ANSI Contrast specs. As an example, their 6000-lumen commercial Christie DHD600-G is rated at 4800:1 Dynamic contrast, 1200:1 Full On/Off, and 250:1 ANSI Contrast. So even in the commercial projection world you can see these methods vary drastically in terms of numeric results. Christie can afford to publish this data because they sell to knowledgeable buyers through professional AV resellers, and everyone in the Pro AV biz knows the difference between these specs and what they mean.

On the other hand, consumers have no clue about the differences in contrast methods. And to no surprise, they just want the highest numbers possible. So it would be deadly for a manufacturer selling to the consumer audience to publish ANSI contrast specs, which is why they don't. A projector with extreme Dynamic range might measure 500,000:1 Dynamic contrast, while at the same time delivering 800:1 ANSI contrast. Now, if a projector has an 800:1 ANSI rating, that means it has a sparkling, high contrast image, but the consumer would never know it. A manufacturer would only publish that ANSI number if they had a burning desire to go out of business.

What can you do?
First, be aware that, though it is technically difficult to measure ANSI contrast with precision, it is very easy to see it. High ANSI contrast is characterized by solid blacks, brilliant whites, rich natural color saturation, well-defined shadow detail, and a deep three-dimensionality in the image. Low ANSI contrast has more anemic black levels, lower color saturation, muddy shadows, and a shallower, more two-dimensional image. When you look at a projector and think, "Wow, that is excellent contrast," it is quite frequently high ANSI contrast you are reacting to, not Full On/Off.

Second, when you set up two projectors side by side, it is usually obvious which has the higher contrast without having to measure it. The primary clue is the comparative depth (or perceived three-dimensionality) of the two images.

Third, until proven otherwise, assume there is NO correlation between Dynamic or Full On/Off on the one hand and ANSI contrast on the other. A very high On/Off rating does not means it also has very high ANSI contrast -- it might, but you don't know. You can have a projector with a low Full /On Off that has a very high ANSI reading and looks spectacular. Don't be surprised if you put Projector A rated at 50,000:1 up against Projector B at 500,000:1, and discover that Projector A looks much higher in contrast. It happens all the time.

In other words, Dynamic and Full On/Off contrast specs are notoriously misleading. They tell you almost nothing about what the average video image will look like. If everyone published ANSI specs, that would be enormously helpful, but the risk to the manufacturer is huge simply because the consumer will misunderstand them. Unless manufacturers suddenly take an enormous gamble to publish ANSI contrast specs in the hope consumers will figure them out, do yourself a favor and ignore the contrast specs you see today. Full On/Off and Dynamic specs say nothing about what the picture looks like, and they are absolutely no way to compare projectors.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Contrast ratio has been discussed to death over at AVS Forum. Much like audio, it can get very technical and it can be extremely misleading.

First, it is true that the human eye has a limited capacity at any moment to see beyond a certain contrast ratio. But, like many projectors, the human eye has an iris that makes the range that we can actually perceive much, MUCH higher than what we can see in any single moment. So, when a scene gets darker, our ability to discern shadow detail grows if the entire scene is dark. Same with brighter scenes and determining highlights. This is how we can see well in both bright and dark environments... up to a point. Our eyes adjust.

This is also why ANSI contrast is useful, but also useless. It doesn't show how a projector can do when an entire scene is very dark. JVC, while they often suck at ANSI, does extremely well, and better than anyone, with darker scenes. Their iris closes down and they are able to show black levels and shadow details that others simply can't match. They also tend to do better than most with a bit of highlights on screen. But, then they blow out the black levels when half the screen is white, like a checkerboard ANSI contrast pattern. They don't even try to screw up the rest of their amazing image quality to hit a random target number.

But, yes, you are then left with different contrast ratio measurements, most of which end up lying. Some review sites do measure different contrast ratios in different ways. Getting a full on/off CR as an example, but much of it is subjective and should be done by reviewers who are familiar with the content being presented. I certainly notice how much better the contrast is on my JVC over the BenQ that I had previously that simply had no way to bring down the greyish black levels it delivered at any time, but perhaps had a similar, or even better, ANSI contrast.

Much like 'all channels driven' is a poor way to measure amplifier power, ANSI contrast is a poor way to really get an understanding of the actual contrast you should expect out of any projector. It certainly would put JVC near the bottom of a list which makes no sense based upon owner reviews and professional reviews of the products they deliver.
I think it's safe to say that there are 2 sides to every coin or story. :D

I think it's difficult to refute long-time field experts from Projector Central, BARCO Projectors, Christie Projectors, etc. These experts certainly believe that ANSI Contrast is a lot more meaningful.

Whether it's Full-On-Full-Off Native Contrast or ANSI Contrast, we have to buy the projector that looks great to us (both colors and black levels), not just rely 100% on hearsay from the forums or reviews.

Back to your audio analogy. Do I want my Yamaha MX-A5000 to be able to output 150WPC x 11 Ch ALL CHANNELS DRIVEN? Hells yes, I do! :D

I won't get it. But hells yes I do want it - even if my speakers don't need it.

Do I want my Yamaha CX-A5100 to have a THD+N of 0.000001%? Hells yes I do. :D

I won't get it and I won't hear any difference. But yes I do.

Whether it is AUDIO or VIDEO, at the end of the day, regardless of reviews or hearsay, we want great sound quality and great video quality.
 
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BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
As I said, it gets technical, because ANSI doesn't represent real world scenes and certainly doesn't reflect on how shadow detail is handled, or if low brightness scenes are capable of being rendered with excellence (as LCoS is most capable of). ANSI promotes high levels of internal light scatter, which can certainly be more of a problem for certain technologies and less of a problem for others. This is why specs, in general, can be so misleading overall and why reviews are so important.

Head to head comparisons are really nice when you get to a website like cine4home where they really get into the nitty gritty of things and throw a couple of good mid-tier models against each other...

But, then they still call out LCoS as the one to really deliver on contrast.

It's so weird, because I know that LCoS doesn't deliver the best in terms of ANSI contrast, but when you get those inky blacks on screen when watching a movie, it's pretty darn crazy to see when compared to the greyish blacks that DLP delivers, despite their lower in-unit light scattering issues and often times better ANSI contrast.

Yes, you want 110WPC from your receiver, but how much audible noise will you put up with to get those watts? It needs to be clean power to your speakers or it is useless. I think audio, generally, has delivered some very good product specifications that are mostly honest. Projectors still are fighting a battle. Epson, with their lawsuits against the cheap Chinese importers, is a very good thing as they go after BS brightness claims. But, contrast will remain a bit dodgy and really does need a few different test patterns to be delivered that can be considered official measurements as well. Some way to measure low light scenes. Some way to measure high light scenes, as well as HDR and non-HDR versions.

At the end of the day, I keep saying the same thing: These technologies all tend to look really good. A cheap BenQ HT2050a is a very solid looking projector and the difference between it and a nice JVC isn't the same night and day difference which can occur between a store brand LCD TV and a LG OLED display. The difference in technologies just isn't that shocking overall, but it is still clearly visible.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
As I said, it gets technical, because ANSI doesn't represent real world scenes and certainly doesn't reflect on how shadow detail is handled, or if low brightness scenes are capable of being rendered with excellence (as LCoS is most capable of). ANSI promotes high levels of internal light scatter, which can certainly be more of a problem for certain technologies and less of a problem for others. This is why specs, in general, can be so misleading overall and why reviews are so important.

Head to head comparisons are really nice when you get to a website like cine4home where they really get into the nitty gritty of things and throw a couple of good mid-tier models against each other...

But, then they still call out LCoS as the one to really deliver on contrast.

It's so weird, because I know that LCoS doesn't deliver the best in terms of ANSI contrast, but when you get those inky blacks on screen when watching a movie, it's pretty darn crazy to see when compared to the greyish blacks that DLP delivers, despite their lower in-unit light scattering issues and often times better ANSI contrast.

Yes, you want 110WPC from your receiver, but how much audible noise will you put up with to get those watts? It needs to be clean power to your speakers or it is useless. I think audio, generally, has delivered some very good product specifications that are mostly honest. Projectors still are fighting a battle. Epson, with their lawsuits against the cheap Chinese importers, is a very good thing as they go after BS brightness claims. But, contrast will remain a bit dodgy and really does need a few different test patterns to be delivered that can be considered official measurements as well. Some way to measure low light scenes. Some way to measure high light scenes, as well as HDR and non-HDR versions.

At the end of the day, I keep saying the same thing: These technologies all tend to look really good. A cheap BenQ HT2050a is a very solid looking projector and the difference between it and a nice JVC isn't the same night and day difference which can occur between a store brand LCD TV and a LG OLED display. The difference in technologies just isn't that shocking overall, but it is still clearly visible.
Makes sense.

Most of these new PJ, especially above $2K range, will look awesome for both colors and black levels.

So to recap, if the scenes are COMPLETELY DARK, then Native Contrast makes more sense.

If the scenes have both WHITE and DARK contents, then ANSI Contrast makes more sense.

Now here is another thing that is similar to the audio world - measured native contrast vs manufacturer specs.

According to JVC, the NX9 has a native contrast of 100,000:1. Cine4Home measured max calibrated native contrast of 24,000:1, which is excellent, but not anywhere near 100,000:1. :D

Cine4Home measured the Sony 270E's calibrated native contrast = 18,500:1, which is practically the same as the NX5, NX7, NX9, especially when we factor in our Human Perception Contrast limit (more than 800:1).

Yet, we see people on forums talk about the Sony 270/295ES's black level like it's GRAY. :D
 
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BMXTRIX

BMXTRIX

Audioholic Warlord
Yet, we see people on forums talk about the Sony 270/295ES's black level like it's GRAY. :D
Only on 'certain' forums. Sony has black levels that are really close to that of JVC. The ability for LCoS to deliver on excellent black levels is pretty astounding in real world viewing. About my only hesitation with Sony is the reports of degradation of black levels on their chips over time. That's a pretty serious offense when someone drops $5,000+ on a projector IMO. But, the last Sony I installed, from a number of years ago, is still running strong for my client and still looks great. Just like my JVCs have done well over the years.

I'm still not complaining about the BenQ w1070 I had for years either. I certainly didn't feel like it was night and day when I went from my sub $1,000 w1070 to my JVC DLA-X590R. I would have been really annoyed had I dropped $3,000+ on it. I think I spent about half that for a brand new in box model. I could probably sell it for more than I paid for it at this point.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
High-end High-lumen 4K Projectors NATIVE CONTRAST:

Barco Balder 5.6K-lumen $65K 1,800:1
Barco Loki 8.5K-lumen $88K 1,800:1
Barco Bragi 8.5K-lumen $50K 1,800:1
Barco Medea 8.5K-lumen $40K 1,300:1
Barco Njord 12K-lumen $159K 2,000:1
Christie CP4220 22K-lumen $61K 2,000:1
Barco DP4K-23BLP 24K-lumen $78K 2,000:1
Christie CP4230 4K 34K-lumen $65K 2,000:1
Barco DP4K-36BLP 35K-lumen $103K 2,000:1
Barco SP4K-55 55K-lumen 2,000:1

Most of these high-lumen PJ are used in commercial cinemas/movie theaters.
 
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