Measure impedence at the crossover or speaker?

A

am74Gibson

Junior Audioholic
Ok, I have looked and looked, but cannot find an answer, so I will have to be shamed into asking this BASIC Noob question! Is impedence (resistance) measured at the back of the speaker cabinet through the crossover, or do I need to take out the speaker to measure?

Second....I have read some posts that explain how Ohms vary depending on frequency, so does measuring in either place do really anything at all...like maybe give you a ballpark idea of what the speakers are rated at?

Thanks and please don't flame ;-0 Everyone has to start somewhere. :D
 
S

sparky77

Full Audioholic
It depends on whether your testing for the impendance of just the woofer or tweeter or for the assemble as a whole, but keep in mind if you measure with a meter across the terminals you won't be reading the impedance, just the dc resistance. I believe there is a tutorial on the main page about measuring a speakers specifications.
 
T

trnqk7

Full Audioholic
I think the DC resistance is the spec given by the manufacturers in general anyway-if it measures close to the rated specs, you'd be fine I would think.

Does anyone know for sure-is the manufacturer spec the dc resistance or does it include the reactive component of impedance as well, just simplified out (can't think of the term for sqrt(r^2+x^2) right now...too early).
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Ok, I have looked and looked, but cannot find an answer, so I will have to be shamed into asking this BASIC Noob question! Is impedence (resistance) measured at the back of the speaker cabinet through the crossover, or do I need to take out the speaker to measure?

Second....I have read some posts that explain how Ohms vary depending on frequency, so does measuring in either place do really anything at all...like maybe give you a ballpark idea of what the speakers are rated at?

Thanks and please don't flame ;-0 Everyone has to start somewhere. :D
Resistance is not impedance. Measuring resistance of a total speaker is meaningless, as you are measuring ONLY the DC resistance of the woofer, plus the DC resistance of all inductors in series with the woofer. That's all. If the speaker has access to low and high pass filters, and is a two, or two and a half way, then th DC resistance of the total speaker, and the resistance when accessing the low pass filter will be the same. The DC resistance at the high pass filter will be infinite. A cap will no pass DC. There are one or more caps in series with the tweeter.

Now the DC resistance of the drivers is of concern only to the speaker designer, as is the impedance curve of each driver. Now since all speaker voice coils are inductors, impedance rises with frequency although bass tuning and type cause impedance peaks at tuning, one for sealed, two for ported and TL.

Now the impedance curve of the total speaker is the sum of the resistances, and inductive and capacitative loads in the total system.

Now the impedance curve of the drivers in the total system in it and out of it are different.

Now if you want a headache, there is not only the impedance curve to worry about but the phase response curve. The reason being that not even the impedance at a given frequency tells you what the current draw form the amp will be.

Look at this thread from last week. This goes over ground we went over last week, that has a large bearing on what you are asking about.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=42432

Now if you want to measure the impedance curve of a driver or total speaker, then you need an audio oscillator (Known as an audio signal generator) , an amp, a suitable resistor and an amplified meter. You put a suitable resistor in series with the driver, if that is what you are measuring, or the speaker terminals if it is the total speaker you are measuring. You then keep the driving voltage constant at the input to the series resistor, as you increase frequency. You select suitable frequency intervals to do measurements. You measure the voltage across the series resistor and the speaker. You can then work out the current at that frequency from ohms law. You know the voltage across the speaker, so you can work out the impedance at that frequency.

Now I think you need to purchase a few books on these subjects you are interested in. If you want to become a serious enthusiast, and I think and hope you do, you need to do some serious reading on the physical and electrical principles that have a bearing on this.

If you are a university student, may be you should consider some courses, in mathematics, physics and electrical engineering? You would not be the first youngster to be lead to en education and career through a hobby.

I have a feeling we can not provide what you want, and need, on a forum like this. If you think I'm advising further self education before posing these kind of questions, then you have drawn the correct conclusion.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
...I have read some posts that explain how Ohms vary depending on frequency...
TLS guy is right. Resistance is meaningless. Audio signals coming from your amp or receiver are AC signals not DC. Resistance means something for DC. And yes, the impedance of a speaker does vary with the frequency. You cannot measure this with a volt/ohm meter, you need the right equipment. A picture is worth 1,000 words.



This curve shows the impedance curve for an Ascend CMT-340. Ascend Acoustics is one of the few speaker makers that show these kind of measurements. The upper green trace is the impedance (ohms in the vertical axis and frequency in the horizontal axis), and the lower trace shows electrical phase (measured in degrees) of the impedance. Both vary with frequency.

For the speaker buyer, the impedance curve shows that these speakers have a minimum impedance of about 5 ohms. The lower this value is, the more difficult load the speaker can be for some less hefty amplifiers. For most people, this is all they need to know about speaker impedance.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I think the DC resistance is the spec given by the manufacturers in general anyway-if it measures close to the rated specs, you'd be fine I would think.

Does anyone know for sure-is the manufacturer spec the dc resistance or does it include the reactive component of impedance as well, just simplified out (can't think of the term for sqrt(r^2+x^2) right now...too early).
If it is the DC resistance it will be just that, but it will be woofer voice coils plus series inductors only.

The impedance can be just about anything the manufacturer feels like putting out there. If they don't want to publish the curve, then stating the minimum impedance and at what frequency would be some help.
 
A

am74Gibson

Junior Audioholic
Not really a project...yet

Hey TLS Guy....I will be more specific on why I am asking these questions...just gathering knowledge right now.

I just bought a pair of PSB t55 image towers. These are the first speakers I have owned that have the option of BiAmping. I was just curious that if since they are rated at 4-6 ohms, that when I remove the connection strap, that EACH is still rated at 4-6 ohms or not. I was wondering if measuring anything at the speaker terminals on the back, or at the speakers would give me an idea.

The long term thought behind wanting to know this is.... I upgraded from to these speakers from Infinity RS6 Kappa's with EMIT tweeters. And I really liked the EMIT tweeters! One of the woofers developed a pinhole and I am not sure how much longer they would last, so I decided it was time to upgrade. I really like the PSB's but am thinking sooner or later I may want to do a tweeter upgrade or addition in order to get more like the EMIT sound.

I think the PSB have some excellent qualities as far as imaging, looks, price, etc, but (as I read in a couple of reviews) the tweeter is slightly subdued.

Like I said, this is just a thought right now, and maybe I will get used to the PSB sound and be happy. But when it comes to the highs compared to the Ininitys...it is just missing a little "something"

So "IF" i ever decide to do do something, I would like to understand what tweeters may give me what I need while matching imepedence and frequency response with the existing crossover.

Just thinking about it for now...
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
Hey TLS Guy....I will be more specific on why I am asking these questions...just gathering knowledge right now.

I just bought a pair of PSB t55 image towers. These are the first speakers I have owned that have the option of BiAmping. I was just curious that if since they are rated at 4-6 ohms, that when I remove the connection strap, that EACH is still rated at 4-6 ohms or not. I was wondering if measuring anything at the speaker terminals on the back, or at the speakers would give me an idea.

The long term thought behind wanting to know this is.... I upgraded from to these speakers from Infinity RS6 Kappa's with EMIT tweeters. And I really liked the EMIT tweeters! One of the woofers developed a pinhole and I am not sure how much longer they would last, so I decided it was time to upgrade. I really like the PSB's but am thinking sooner or later I may want to do a tweeter upgrade or addition in order to get more like the EMIT sound.

I think the PSB have some excellent qualities as far as imaging, looks, price, etc, but (as I read in a couple of reviews) the tweeter is slightly subdued.

Like I said, this is just a thought right now, and maybe I will get used to the PSB sound and be happy. But when it comes to the highs compared to the Ininitys...it is just missing a little "something"

So "IF" i ever decide to do do something, I would like to understand what tweeters may give me what I need while matching imepedence and frequency response with the existing crossover.

Just thinking about it for now...
I thought you had a scheme!

First of all those speakers are to all intense and purposes 4 ohm, or lower. It is 2 1/2 way, and the lower driver fill in for diffraction loss below starting probably somewhere around 600 HZ. As the lower driver begins to fill in the impedance will drop.

I suspect the impedance of the tweeter is around 8 ohms and probably rises with frequency , but that is a guess.

Now you can't change tweeter. You might as well learn to build a speaker from scratch. The reason is that all speakers have roll offs, and they are all different orders and shapes. The crossover is designed to give the optimum splice for the curves of TWO SPECIFIC drivers, the ones in your speaker. NOT something else.

Here is a design I'm doodling with, and if you look at the circuit and graph you will see what I mean.

You might want to consider building this after I have prototyped it. This is part of some projects I plan for forum members for educational and cost saving purposes, for those that want to get more deeply involved and have some fun.
 
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A

am74Gibson

Junior Audioholic
Keep me in the loop

Yes, please keep me in the loop for your speaker building projects. It may be a while before I can afford any more investment, but that will give you time to finalize your prototype!

Thanks!
 
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