Matching Bag End speakers to AVR

[HTnewbie]

This is my first posting but I wanted to say thanks to all you Audioholic participants as I have developed a very quick education reading many threads at this and other sites. My first post will be a long one:

I have a full range of Bag End HT speakers that I want to integrate into a new theater set up. For those that are not aware of Bag End, they make mostly commercial products and have recently launch a HT series. You can find out more at www.bagend.com.

Specifically, I was able to get a great deal on the following:
Five MM-8H monitors (http://www.bagend.com/bagend/mm-8h.htm)
Two INFRASUB 18s (http://www.bagend.com/bagend/infra18detail.htm)
One INFRASUB 12 (http://www.bagend.com/bagend/infrasub12.htm)

We recently moved into a new house that has a space in the basement that will be a dedicated theater ast some point (late 2005). The MM-8s and the 18" subs were slated for usage there. However, we have decided to set up a less serious theater in a great room that is directly connected to our kitchen and a casual dining room. Ceilings are tall at 11' and our RPTV and front speakers will be in a small alcove. This is an acoustical nightmare but it is what I have to work with.

My plan at this point is to use three MM-8s as the front mains. To keep marital harmony, I will use the single 12" sub in this setup. However, for aesthetic and other reasons (four small children) it is likely to be mounted directly under the RPTV in a built-in cabinet. No ideal but....

Surrounds are a challenge as I can not hang anything from the ceiling or walls (never mind freestanding). My thoughts are aimable ceiling speakers such as SpeakerCraft or the Polks. Looking to mount three of these in a triagular pattern hoping for a 6.1 setup.

If have read this far, thank you. My questions:

1) Any thoughts on the ceiling surrounds? Timbre matching to Bag Ends?
2) I have really come to like the Yamaha RVX1500 - thoughts on its matching to the Bag Ends or ceiling surrounds?
3)The ceiling surrounds will require a 45' speaker wire run to the AVR position - is 14 ga sufficient or do I need 12 ga.

Any and all comments are welcome. Thanks.
(I will be cross posting this to the Receiver forum as well)

 

[cbraver]

I have some experiance with BagEnds pro-sound/sound reinforcement systems. From their specs, although that can't really tell you how they sound by just looking at those - I need to hear them, they look like they are designed to sound a lot like their big brothers and are obviously HEAVILY based of them.

With that in mind, they are designed for a very large "sweet spot." That's the good news, so while they are still constrained to laws of physics, their design is not as sensitive to movement as some other brands you could have bought.

The subs that claim to go down to 8Hz is well, a BagEnd tradition, but, you'll find that it's not exactly a stunning claim. Other than that, their pro subs have always been good and I think their home ones will live up to their brand.

The mains seem to only go down to 95Hz though...which is fine for a basic sound reinforcement system...but in home audio, that is going to be a problem.

I can't think of who to suggest for rears though.... maybe tomorrow something will come to me. Last post of the night, need to go to bed.

BadEnd seems to have taken some pro stuff and just slapped a home logo on it, basically. They look rather "wideband PA system"ish to me.

Oh, you can find a place to hide the 12 if you can find a place to hide the 18... or both. Come'on, you gotta. I love my 18" sub back home. You'll freak. With two, especially from a company known for being LOUD, you'll be knocking walls down.

Please keep us up to date on this installation, maybe with pictures, I'm interested to see how this all goes in! Hopefully tomorrow I'll be of more help!

-Chad

 

[HTnewbie]

Chad -

Thanks for the feedback. Given I posted in both the speaker/sub and receiver forums and got a fair number of views with no replies I was getting nervous that I was "off message" or something. I think Bag End's anonimity put some folks off.

I came to own the Bag Ends in an unintentional manner. My wife had a retail home furnishings business and joined a barter network when she was exiting the business. It was a great way to clear inventory but left us with MANY barter credits. It turned out that Bag End's owner was also involved in the network from time to time. I checked around on his product and became impressed with what little I was able to learn. So, in an effort to not spend "cash", I "bought" five of the 8" mains, two 6" mains, two 18" subs and one 12" sub. Thus, my owning these speakers was "accidental" in the sense that I would have had to spend $5-10K to buy comparable Paradigms, etc. Given I was building the HT system from scratch, I figured I could work in from the speakers.

Anyway, given we are getting into our new home I have not had a chance to really audition the units. However, I did hook up two of the 8" monitors to my 1977 vintage Pioneer SX650 and played a variety of CDs in a less than acoustically optimal room. All I can say is I was WOWED by the sound (I used Paradigm bookshelf previously). Even without a sub, these 8" units produce a far amount of bass which was fine for the material. Probably not enough for some whiz-bang DVD movie material but plenty for Christmas Carols, Basia, Aerosmith and various classical music (the 1812 Overture was a revelation). Cymbals were crisp and smooth, horns sweet and vocals warm (I am no audiophile but these adjectives sound about right). If the SX650 were even partially HT capable, I would not need a new AVR. If will be paired with the 6" monitors in my office after that experience.

As for the 95 hz issue, the Bag End subs and 8" monitors meet at that point. During my research phase I spent some time speaking with two of Bag Ends in-house guys and came away confident that used together these products were well matched. One was a HT enthusiast and was the guy who talked me into considering twin 18" subs. However, that does make finding in-ceiling rear surround units a little more of a challenge but that's half the fun (right?!).

Lastly, putting an 18" sub, never mind two, several paces away from our kitchen would not be a positive contributor to marital harmony. As it is my wife has no idea what level of sound the proposed setup will produce (I can knock the basement walls down in 2005). My challenge at the moment is getting her onboard with a 60" RPTV (debating Samsung vs JVC). We're going TV shopping tonight.

Stay tuned.

 

[cbraver]

Chad -

Thanks for the feedback. Given I posted in both the speaker/sub and receiver forums and got a fair number of views with no replies I was getting nervous that I was "off message" or something. I think Bag End's anonimity put some folks off.

Bag End is far from annoymous in the pro industry, but, yeah, around here most might have heard OF them but are not familiar with them.

Thus, my owning these speakers was "accidental" in the sense that I would have had to spend $5-10K to buy comparable Paradigms, etc. Given I was building the HT system from scratch, I figured I could work in from the speakers.

....more, probably. I'm not sure where the HT stuff MSRPs, but, if it's near the pro stuff (and I bet it is since they seem to be extremely simular - kind of reminds me of M&K pro vs. consumer) you probably have circa 15k + worth of Bag End gear.

Anyway, given we are getting into our new home I have not had a chance to really audition the units. However, I did hook up two of the 8" monitors to my 1977 vintage Pioneer SX650 and played a variety of CDs in a less than acoustically optimal room. All I can say is I was WOWED by the sound (I used Paradigm bookshelf previously). Even without a sub, these 8" units produce a far amount of bass which was fine for the material. Probably not enough for some whiz-bang DVD movie material but plenty for Christmas Carols, Basia, Aerosmith and various classical music (the 1812 Overture was a revelation). Cymbals were crisp and smooth, horns sweet and vocals warm (I am no audiophile but these adjectives sound about right). If the SX650 were even partially HT capable, I would not need a new AVR. If will be paired with the 6" monitors in my office after that experience.

My experiance with Bag End is limited to night clubs and lounges back home in Miami. So, the only media I have heard them play is trance, downtempo trance, ambient, deep trance, and a bit of house. However, they reproduce those beautifully and POWERFULLY.

As for the 95 hz issue, the Bag End subs and 8" monitors meet at that point. During my research phase I spent some time speaking with two of Bag Ends in-house guys and came away confident that used together these products were well matched. One was a HT enthusiast and was the guy who talked me into considering twin 18" subs.

Oh, yeah, they are designed to match flawlessly. The trouble I see is that if you crossover at 95Hz to your subwoofer, when the subwoofer plays those higher notes, they may be roughly localizable. That's probably one of the reasons why that gentlemen recommended the two 18" subs. Beyond the awesome output of having two well powered 18" drivers, you could then put them on the Left and Right channel and then the localization problem would be null. The other advantage of the two subwoofers is it is easier to reproduce even bass response. They compress the room more evenly.

Subwoofers are said to be non-localizable, but the higher frequencies you have them play the easier it is to localize those sounds. I may be incorrect, but I'm pretty sure 90 is very boarderline.. I'd be interested to hear what someone more educated on the topic has to say about that.

It's NOT a design flaw of Bag End... their speakers roots were designed to have extremely high output (with clearity) and so having a main go down to 80Hz is just asking for reliability problems. Those drivers are operating in their most effecient range of frequencies. At extremely high SPL levels, asking an 8" driver to reproduce 80Hz sounds is actually pretty stressful on most! Most of their applications have multiple subwoofers so they have those large drivers do a wider range of frequencies than consumer items.

However, that does make finding in-ceiling rear surround units a little more of a challenge but that's half the fun (right?!).

You should call Bag End and see what they recommend. I'm kind of at a loss with recommendations and no one else seems to be chiming in with regards to that. I'm a huge fan of M&K (mksound.com), and they have a badass selection of inwall rears that will be able to keep up with the Bag Ends in terms of volume and quality, but I'm not sure about timbre matching them. You could also look into Triad, who also have great inwall selections. Both M&K and Triad are rather expensive though, but, since you got the Bag Ends at such a deal, maybe spending money on the rears won't be so bad.

Lastly, putting an 18" sub, never mind two, several paces away from our kitchen would not be a positive contributor to marital harmony. As it is my wife has no idea what level of sound the proposed setup will produce (I can knock the basement walls down in 2005).

With a pair of 18" in the front with those mains, you will have a simply fantastic setup once you build your seperate home theater. And for the time being, to keep the wife happy, you will still love having the 12" sub with those mains until the theater is ready. Gotta keep the wifey happy. Don't piss her off with those 18s and have her make you sell them or anything crazy! Keep 'em for your theater! My dads friend had a professional Apogee subwoofer, the size of a dining room table (maybe 200lbs too). He thought it would be ok to put it in the living room until the theater was ready, and ended up selling it to my dad for cheap when the wife freaked out. The only place he could put it was in place of the coffee table... and you couldn't really set anything on it because it would literally vibrate off. and it was huge and black with metal brackets for moving it by pully and metal edges for durability. It was halarious to see it in place of the coffee table. But, killed martial harmony.

-Chad

 

[HTnewbie]

The monitors cost in the $1k range and the subs are around $1,500 - which puts the total just under your estimate. If I can, I would rather spend the "saved" $s on a higher end AVR and DVD with DVI. BTW, any thoughts on pairing with the Yammie VRX1500 AVR?

Just received an email from the Bag End owner telling me they just introduced an in-wall version of their 6" monitor. All stats the same. No photos yet but he promised a pdf later today. If that's the case, I may have to work on the Mrs. for some in-wall grills. She hasn't objected to in-ceiling so who knows.

If you are interested, here are several Bag End hardware reviews:

http://www.bagend.com/bagend/downloads/audiomaginfra&mm8.pdf
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/audiophileaudition/0701/bagend.htm
http://www.soundstage.com/video/revequip/bagend_infrasub18.htm
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HEO/is_10_28/ai_n6177294
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_4_4/bagend18.html