Matching AVR for ELAC Debute F5

A

anikenr

Enthusiast
Hi Folks,

I have recently got into HIFI. Given limited Budget was able to put a good enough system in place 3 years ago. But I feel my AVR may not be doing justice to give the best output for my speakers.
I googled enough but did not find any thread matching my exact requirement. Would appreciate your expert advice on getting the best out of my system or to replace the AVR ?
My current setup consist of

4K TV - LG 55 inch 55UJ632T ( All media is played via the tv to AVR via ARC)
AVR - Yamaha RXV 483
Front - ELAC Debute F5
Center - ELAC Debute C5
Surrounds - Wharfedale DFS
SUB - Velodyne Impact 12 MK2.

I have run YOPA multiple times and played with the DSP. When i compared my system to a friends who has a similar setup except AVR which is Pioneer VSX832. Found output on his system was more open and dynamic, where my sounds bit dull.

Any suggestions/ recommendations?
 
A

anikenr

Enthusiast
Sorry should have mentioned, Similar is the room size and the Front and Center speaker.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Slumlord
How is each avr setup for any dsp/bass management?
 
A

anikenr

Enthusiast
Can you please elobrate what seetings i need to check?
I can tell you what all is there on my setup as of now. Will check on my friends place when my friend is in town again.

in tone control
Treble is +1.5
Bass is 0.0 DB

DSP/Surround
Adaptive DRC - ON
Enhancer - ON

Volume Trim
Input trim - 0
Subwoofer trim - -1.0

Speakers are configured as smalll
cross over is 80htz.
YOPA had set front and center as Large.

Levels are as set by YOPA.

EQ is <PEQ> basically as set by YOPA.

anything else did i miss?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Slumlord
That it's called YPAO? :)

The point is there can be a lot of differences in rooms or other speakers/subs, avr setup, furnishings, all sorts of things. You might be able to mimic his setup, but may not be able to actually duplicate it. Why do you have the treble boosted, tho? Why do you use DRC? Enhancer?
 
A

anikenr

Enthusiast
Oh yes YPAO :D

Treble Boosted : because it sounded bit muddy to me.
DRC: I keep it on mainly for listening to music at low volume for longer period of time.
Enhancer : Mainly listen to lot of lossy music over bluetooth, airplay, spotify it just sounds better with it turned on.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
Oh yes YPAO :D

Treble Boosted : because it sounded bit muddy to me.
DRC: I keep it on mainly for listening to music at low volume for longer period of time.
Enhancer : Mainly listen to lot of lossy music over bluetooth, airplay, spotify it just sounds better with it turned on.
You cannot go by your subjective impression comparing two systems in different rooms. For a more proper comparison, your need to level match the two systems within 0.5 dB or better, and use the same media source and media player, that's the minimum requirement. Then the two AVR being compared must be set to direct mode/or pure direct mode if available.

I took a look of the specs of the two units and found them to be very comparable. The Pioneer may be marginally more powerful but such minute difference is totally negligible.

Your speakers are not designed to play very loud and your RX-V483 is not that powerful, so even if you sit close to the speakers such as 8 ft, don't try to listen to anywhere close to reference level. It may help a lot too if you set crossovers to 100 or even 120 Hz.
 
A

anikenr

Enthusiast
You cannot go by your subjective impression comparing two systems in different rooms. For a more proper comparison, your need to level match the two systems within 0.5 dB or better, and use the same media source and media player, that's the minimum requirement. Then the two AVR being compared must be set to direct mode/or pure direct mode if available.

I took a look of the specs of the two units and found them to be very comparable. The Pioneer may be marginally more powerful but such minute difference is totally negligible.

Your speakers are not designed to play very loud and your RX-V483 is not that powerful, so even if you sit close to the speakers such as 8 ft, don't try to listen to anywhere close to reference level. It may help a lot too if you set crossovers to 100 or even 120 Hz.
Ahhh I think I found the issue.. had not played with the crossover, it was set by YPAO so did not fiddle much with it. In fact it was set to 40 I later changed it to 80 ("as suggested by most forums") and also it was sounding bit muddy.

Setting it at 110 indeed opened the sound stage quiet well. Thanks!!.
I always thought having floor standing speakers will play deep enough to set the cross over at 80htz or even lower. One big reason to buy floor standing speakers instead of book shelf/in wall. But now it has got me thinking if spending those extra bucks was worth it.
 
A

anikenr

Enthusiast
Now my system is sounding well enough. But the itch to upgrade is still there ;).

Can you guys suggest if upgrading my AVR say something like Marantz SR5013 or Denon equalant or a Pioneer LX series will there be significantly improve the output from my ELACS?
Or shoud I continue with my setup as it is?
 
NINaudio

NINaudio

Audioholic Chief
Upgrading speakers is what can give you the largest change in sound quality, not upgrading your AVR. If there are bad interactions with your room, upgrading your avr to a model with better room correction may help, but better speakers are still going to be the largest upgrade you can get.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Overlord
Now my system is sounding well enough. But the itch to upgrade is still there ;).

Can you guys suggest if upgrading my AVR say something like Marantz SR5013 or Denon equalant or a Pioneer LX series will there be significantly improve the output from my ELACS?
Or shoud I continue with my setup as it is?
It would mostly depend on your power need. You can use an online calculator to find out what you need, let us know and then we can give you a more definitive answer. The thing is, even the top Marantz model, the SR8012 will only give you 3 dB more output at the most.

Just a quick check, what's the maximum volume position you have ever set to so far when listening to music and/or watching a movie?

By the way, the reason YPAO set the crossover for the F5 to 40 Hz is because those tower speakers happened to have response down that low in you room, due to what is known as "room gain". If you have a subwoofer though, then you should let it take care of frequencies below 80 Hz. The reason why 110 Hz may be better is, it takes some burden off that little receiver so it can feed the F5 with clean signal during peaks. Also, while the Elac F5 can go that low, it would likely do so at much higher distortions, resulting in higher distortions even at the upper mid bass range up to around 250-300 Hz.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Ninja
If you choose to upgrade electronics (not a recommendation to do so, but...) I would look at something with Audyssey XT32 as the room correction. Many of us seem to be in agreement that, while not perfect, it works well enough, especially with the Audyssey App. Denon 3500 has it, not certain about the Marantz SR501x series (601x does.)
To stress, the electronics will not really offer much improvement unless you are upgrading from, say, very inexpensive 10+ year-old gear to something retailing new around $1K. That Denon 3500 is a great buy right now, for example. (Still not a recommendation! :))

In order to increase SPL by any noticeable difference, you need a doubling of power. That will only result in a +3dB gain.
In order to have a system that plays loud, you would need speakers that have a higher sensitivity. Also, speakers that can handle greater power will aid in that quest.
While the ELAC speakers have a reputation for good sound, they do seem to also be known to not play as loud as others.
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
I think you can find some improvements just by studying up a little on the basics and then maximize everything you can. By that I mean positioning, distance, toe in, tweeter height, etc.

Also, understand that speakers from different manufacturers all have their own unique "sound signature" or "timbre". 2 speakers with similar specs can sound very different. Aside from eq and room correction most AVRs and amplifiers do not have a sound signature and if they did it would be considered a flaw by most here.

Speakers will always have the most impact on sound quality and placement/positioning has a lot more impact on speakers than most realize.

That said Ryan's suggestion (again, not a recommendation, per se), if you do decide to buy a receiver I'm a big fan of Audyssey XT32 as well. It does a pretty good job in my room. I would start with basics first tho, before buying anything. Where is your crossover set? Ever heard of the sub crawl? I know it's counter intuitive, but instead of turning your treble up you might actually need to trim somewhere else to lose some of that muddiness. That's something that measurements would help a lot with but not everyone has the equipment.
 
A

anikenr

Enthusiast
Played around with the system bit more and found the cross over at 110Htz is the ideal sweet spot for me. Ran YPAO again and the system defaulted all speakers to large and cross over to 40Htz.
I changed all speakers to small and set the crossover to 110 and let the distance and level be as is. System sounds much better now. As PENG highlighted taking the load off my Yammy helped.

I was under the impression that a bigger amp will sound clearer as it would have more fire power than the current one which is not the case. After fiddling with the settings sound stage is way better and open.
I usually don't play music/movie really loud and that was really not the point of the thought process for upgrading my system.

Tanks a ton everyone really appreciate it!!
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Warlord
Played around with the system bit more and found the cross over at 110Htz is the ideal sweet spot for me. Ran YPAO again and the system defaulted all speakers to large and cross over to 40Htz.
I changed all speakers to small and set the crossover to 110 and let the distance and level be as is. System sounds much better now. As PENG highlighted taking the load off my Yammy helped.

I was under the impression that a bigger amp will sound clearer as it would have more fire power than the current one which is not the case. After fiddling with the settings sound stage is way better and open.
I usually don't play music/movie really loud and that was really not the point of the thought process for upgrading my system.

Tanks a ton everyone really appreciate it!!
Glad you got it sorted. You learned something a lot of folks don't realize. More power is often not the answer. There a lot you can do with positioning and settings that can make a world of difference.
 

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