Martin Logan ESL series speakers??

B

BobSD

Audioholic
Has any one any input on these speakers, i have the oppertunity to hear them in my home, the Vantage $7,000 pair. They really look different like a box at the bottom and this tall up right screen like material:eek:, you have to see it to believe it. Has anyone ever heard of them and will my Definitives 7001s to too much of a match for them?? Thanks!
 
B

BobSD

Audioholic
Well no need to respound I just got the bad news these speakers are 4 ohms, and my set up is 8 ohms. So I would be in a situation alot of us find our selves in trying to get a fair price for our present system and paying three times as much for a whole new system. Like I have about 6K in my present speakers and the whole new set up would cost me around 15K, so add on the 6K I already paid for my present speakers wow, I am locked in to this setup! (S_ _ T!) Thats French for Golly gee wiz:mad::mad: Wonder what DeftechGuy would do in this situation??????
 
F

fredk

Audioholic General
Don't give up just yet. What receiver/amp are you using? Lots of receivers out there are fine into 4ohms.

Fred
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Well no need to respound I just got the bad news these speakers are 4 ohms, and my set up is 8 ohms. So I would be in a situation alot of us find our selves in trying to get a fair price for our present system and paying three times as much for a whole new system. Like I have about 6K in my present speakers and the whole new set up would cost me around 15K, so add on the 6K I already paid for my present speakers wow, I am locked in to this setup! (S_ _ T!) Thats French for Golly gee wiz:mad::mad: Wonder what DeftechGuy would do in this situation??????
Martin Logan speakers sound excellent. Because they are bi-poles room placement is critical.

Now the Purity, is a powered speaker, the way some of the best speakers are, and probably all should be. For this speaker you connect the speaker directly to your pre outs, so the impedance of your receiver is a non issue.

http://www.us.martinlogan.com/speaker_intro/purity.html
 
B

BobSD

Audioholic
Interesting! So can I still keep my center and sub-woofer and two back speakers which are 8 ohm. My Integra has a setting of either 6 ohm & up, or 4 Ohm and down. I would like to just get the two front Martin Logan speakers, for now. Now you got me excited again!!:)
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Interesting! So can I still keep my center and sub-woofer and two back speakers which are 8 ohm. My Integra has a setting of either 6 ohm & up, or 4 Ohm and down. I would like to just get the two front Martin Logan speakers, for now. Now you got me excited again!!:)
Note: In addition to the additionall room placement issues that TLS Guy mentioned(you need to have at least 3.5' distance from rear wall), these speakers have very bad off axis response. As a result, the 1st reflections on the sidewall and ceiling should be absorbed with large broadband absorption panels. You do not want much of this poor matching(compared to on axis) output mixing in the room ambiance. I don't think it's likely the center you have will match very well.

BTW, given the right products and add-on parts, you can outperform the ESLs for less money.

-Chris
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Interesting! So can I still keep my center and sub-woofer and two back speakers which are 8 ohm. My Integra has a setting of either 6 ohm & up, or 4 Ohm and down. I would like to just get the two front Martin Logan speakers, for now. Now you got me excited again!!:)
I agree with WmAx your center will be a poor match, however you can use it for now.

WmAx has forced the issue of electrostatic loudspeakers. They are an acquired taste. However many of their qualities are truly arresting, especially their tonal accuracy. When Peter Walker first demonstrated the first Quad ESL in 1957, it was a revelation. It was the first speaker to be in any way truly tonally accurate and sent all other manufacturers running for cover! Hi-Fi news in 2000 voted it the greatest Hi-Fi product of all time.

http://user.tninet.se/~vhw129w/mt_audio_design/quadpage.htm

Now an electrostatic speaker has a figure of 8 di-pole radiation pattern. At 90 degrees to axis there is a complete null. There is as much radiation to the back as the front. This rear reflection has to be either absorbed or ideally reflected.

Now I don't find an electrostatic a very happy marriage to moving coil monopole drivers, nor did Peter Walker. He did sanction a di-polar sub by the Finnish company Gradient.

Electrostatic speakers have to have a huge surface area to generate a deep bass. Alastair Robertson-Aikman the founder of SME pick ups had four Quad ESL 63 speakers stacked one above the other per side in the SME evaluation room.

http://www.sme.ltd.uk/content/Home-940.shtml

They are still in business and have produced the best pick up arms for nearly half a century.

The Martin Logan speakers have that lovely low distortion and linear mid and Hi-frequency response. However when I audition them, I'm very aware of the crossover between the cone speaker and the electrostatic panel.

If you are interested in the Martin Logan, by all means audition them.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
They are an acquired taste. However many of their qualities are truly arresting, especially their tonal accuracy.
I find it no challenge to equal the 'tonal accuracy' and 'transparency' of ESL units using dynamic drivers. Key is to use drivers with near perfect pistonic behavior within their used passband, and to use a cabinet system with levels of cabinet talk/resonance near or under the threshold of audibility limits, and to use internal acoustic absorption materials that totally remove reflections/modal resonance(s), which means much more aggressive approaches as compared to standard DIY or commercial approaches. In fact, it is easy for me to exceed the sound quality of ESLs, when very wide off axis response, identical to on axis is used, as this increases the audibility of unique timbre qualities of instruments/voices in recordings.

When Peter Walker first demonstrated the first Quad ESL in 1957, it was a revelation. It was the first speaker to be in any way truly tonally accurate and sent all other manufacturers running for cover! Hi-Fi news in 2000 voted it the greatest Hi-Fi product of all time.
It is no surprise at all that this was the case, considering the pitiful dynamic drivers available in that era along with the pitiful cabinet designs(which today, most commercial cabinets are still pitiful, though improved overall from what was standard in that era).

-Chris
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
The latest generation of stat panels are more inproved in providing off axis response, especially in the larger panels. While efficency has in improved, the larger panels still need power to make the dynamics shine:D These speakers lend themselves to excellent clarity, but require careful setup and placement.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
The latest generation of stat panels are more inproved in providing off axis response, especially in the larger panels. While efficency has in improved, the larger panels still need power to make the dynamics shine:D These speakers lend themselves to excellent clarity, but require careful setup and placement.
Improved, but still not in any way good off axis; this also pertains to the Quad model with the concentric rings of ESL panels with time delays on the outer rings to provide more a point source type radiation. It is better than other ESLs, but still not nearly good enough to be considered 'good'.

-Chris
 
B

BobSD

Audioholic
Thank you for the site that shows the "Purity" Speaker, it looks much beter then the Vantage, they changed the box portion and improved the appearence. The store that is trying to sell me this type speaker said that, the sound is concentrated directly at the listener thus easy to setup. But after hearing what my GURUs here have to say I down loaded the Vantage setup manual and it really needs almost perfect accustical environment. So the seller may be blowing some smoke my way?
One very important aspect of my music listening, I like to listen at low volume, like -28 to -32 both my denon and Integea the volume is about the same at these numbers. But I can still hear all the audio ranges very well at these setting. Sounds to me that the Electrostatic floorstanding speakers must be played "louder" to appreciate what I now enjoy with my present speakers settings.
Again I thank you for sharing your knowlege, I acually called the store about a CD player and they wanted to sell me this line of speakers along with the CD player. I should take them up on the audition part, I just may be WOWed by them!?
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
Thank you for the site that shows the "Purity" Speaker, it looks much beter then the Vantage, they changed the box portion and improved the appearence. The store that is trying to sell me this type speaker said that, the sound is concentrated directly at the listener thus easy to setup. But after hearing what my GURUs here have to say I down loaded the Vantage setup manual and it really needs almost perfect accustical environment. So the seller may be blowing some smoke my way?
One very important aspect of my music listening, I like to listen at low volume, like -28 to -32 both my denon and Integea the volume is about the same at these numbers. But I can still hear all the audio ranges very well at these setting. Sounds to me that the Electrostatic floorstanding speakers must be played "louder" to appreciate what I now enjoy with my present speakers settings.
Again I thank you for sharing your knowlege, I acually called the store about a CD player and they wanted to sell me this line of speakers along with the CD player. I should take them up on the audition part, I just may be WOWed by them!?
The SPL you listen at should, I don't see why this would change, unless you had a severe coloration / distortion problem prior(when sound is lower in coloration/distortion - people tend to turn up the volume more, it seems, based on my observation).

As for acoustics: yes, these are far more particular than regular speakers, due to their poor off axis response patterns, and in addition, the rear radiation, which requires substantial distance from the rear wall.

-Chris
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
Sounds to me that the Electrostatic floorstanding speakers must be played "louder" to appreciate what I now enjoy with my present speakers settings.
no, but genre might be. I wouldnt by Logans for RAP or Hard Metal types, but more for classical, jazz, bulegrass and accoustic driven music. In ht, their center chanels have amazing detail.
 
K

kerrbust

Audiophyte
bandphan:

You really like your fresco center and mosaic fronts. I like mine as well same set up for me as we discussed earlier. I am going to go with the Pioneer 60" Kuro, the Pioneer Blu Ray 05 and the Pioneer SC-07 receiver. I seem to be up in the air about upgrading to the M/L Matinee center and the Source fronts. Room placement is that critical with stats? I don't quite understand the placement issue if I purchase these speakers. Is it that I may not like the sound as much as my ATF speakers? Maybe I should just wait and see how my current speakers (which I love now) sound with the new equipment. Your input is valued.

Thanks,

Pete
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Room placement is that critical with stats?
I'm sure bandphan will help you out, but my answer is yes. I'm also using 150 lbs of treatment on the front wall, as well as a 4.75" 30 lb treatment on asymmetrical left wall in the living room. I temporarily place and remove this last treatment for critical listening. I even tried the dedicated stereo room this year, with poor results because the room is just awful. In all, I've used my stats in three rooms in the last year and a half.

Space is key. Space from the front wall, as has been noted. Space of your position from the rear wall. If your room is of typical size, expect a sweetspot with that famous electrostat imaging of about 1 to max 2 listeners. Your room will have to be pretty huge to get three people in that general sweetspot. And these three people are pretty friendly and affectionate too. :p

WmAx claims that its easy for him to exceed these speaker's qualities. I'm not one to argue. I've never built a speaker. All I will say is that all of my advanced formal education is in classical music performance, from perennial top music schools in the US, as well as in Europe, where I also taught for two years, as well having performed in 5 countries.

This investment was huge for me. Hell, the msrp of the stereo pair is worth 5x the KBB of my pickup truck. I spent a half year or so in auditioning relentlessly. I met double digit dealers. I filled up an entire Mead notepad with notes. I always had at least 6 different cd's on me. Dealers would see how nuts I was, and they would leave the store to get lunch and trust me all alone for an hour at a time. I've listened to the pair I chose in at least a few different places. I've listened to the best speakers that I could possibly find in the S California area, including a couple of pairs that are close to 6 figure digits.

I had to revisit the stats about 4-5 times, because I had to be sure that I wanted them with all of their compromises.

Nothing touched the natural, realistic, phase-coherent, detailed audio IMO, particularly for vocal music which I find to be a real tremendous test. The hybrid design has compromises, and even with voice can you possibly somewhat detect it with the bass, but if you are in the tessitura of the tenor or higher . . . Put it this way, tenors/countertenors never sounded as clear. This really, for me, helps to highlight counterpoint in polyphonic music. Its often this area of the midrange that is just not even close, for the money, in every other speaker I've heard. Just my impressions for now.

Now, other speakers I might actually prefer for orchestral. The consistency of timbre from top to bottom was better with other fine brands, even if a colored consistency. Its just that doing the voice right was really important to me, and this was good as it ever got, in my opinion, in my limited experiences. Many fine brands produced much more sibilance than the stats did. I detest sibilance. Its probably my #1 hate of any speaker. When I am making these comparisons, I am doing so with others that range from $4,000 to $90,000.

But, like I've already told you in your other thread, you better really love 'em if they're going to be for your HT as well. They do get beamy at higher SPL.

I'm not saying I am right. Just my experiences with a particular perspective.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
and to put in perspective how important vocals are to me, it was not my field. In fact, Im a pretty bad singer. Still, one of my more recent projects was recruiting 4 others from close to a 1 hour driving radius. Two of which are choir directors. All 5 persons have advanced degrees in music. I researched a Josquin sequence that I love, obtained the music, made copies for all, sent them to everyone.

I had my entire part memorized for the first rehearsal. This is not easy with severely polyphonic music for 5 parts.

I gave up on the project, because their efforts were not substantial enough for me. Yeah, even with two choir directors.

This is to put my post in more perspective, in personal terms. Voice is a big deal for me.
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
How about used? Something in the ballpark price might get you something nice?

Here's what they look like in an impressive setup (Seth V).

 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
WmAx claims that its easy for him to exceed these speaker's qualities. I'm not one to argue. I've never built a speaker. All I will say is that all of my advanced formal education is in classical music performance, from perennial top music schools in the US, as well as in Europe, where I also taught for two years, as well having performed in 5 countries.
Indeed, it is easy(for me), and still stick by that statement. It comes down to basic perceptual science and coorelation of such when designing the speaker system.

Most speakers(labeled and priced as high-end or not) are rubbish, in regards to ideally meeting a large number of the perceptual requirements. The specific strength of your speaker is low transducer resonance and low box resonance(there is no box, of course, nor resonant baffle - many open back dynamic driver speakers may have audible resonance from the front baffle as this is not considered in the design usually). Other than that, the only other thing unique to your ESL is polar response/dispersion(most of which is undesirable from an ESL, so far as horizontal response patterns that are very different from on axis - but the rear radiation can actually be used to some benefit if VERY carefully implemented - and this still requires much treatment) and frequency response(which is a final factor that is easily manipulated through appropriate hardware in combination with measurements). I expect, due to the very large panel dimensions resulting in the directive properties of your speakers combined with low resonance and with appropriate room treatments; this would yield a type of sound signature somewhat reminiscent of high end headphones, especially an AKG K1000. Basically, higher class level near field in effect.

-Chris
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
Thanks Chris,

Ya know, I only have great respect for you, for science, and I would like myths debunked as much as the next guy. Etcetera.

However, for this perceptual science that I am unfamiliar with, all I will say is that even would I not like these speakers if you are trying to crank Iron Maiden at concert levels, with me sitting quite off-axis, in a smaller room not treated particularly for di-pole electrostats.

I feel pretty confident that for at least a lot of my favorite vocal recordings, that many here would prefer my speakers to their own if they got to sit in the sweet spot. No basis in science, but that is my "perceptual hypothesis".

My panels are about 45" away front wall, which itself is lined with 150 lbs of HF Mondo Traps. About 2-3" gap between these panels and the wall.

My rear wall is left untreated purely for aesthetic reasons, but I have at least 5-6 ft between it and the listener position. It is an asymmetrical living room, but happens to sound incomparably better than the dedicated bedroom setup that I tried earlier this year. The closer wall on the left also has a horizontally aligned HF Mondo, that is placed there only for critical listening sessions. This was a tip I picked from your posts in the recent "classical speaker thread".

Cheers,
jostenmeat
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
and to put in perspective how important vocals are to me, it was not my field. In fact, Im a pretty bad singer. Still, one of my more recent projects was recruiting 4 others from close to a 1 hour driving radius. Two of which are choir directors. All 5 persons have advanced degrees in music. I researched a Josquin sequence that I love, obtained the music, made copies for all, sent them to everyone.

I had my entire part memorized for the first rehearsal. This is not easy with severely polyphonic music for 5 parts.

I gave up on the project, because their efforts were not substantial enough for me. Yeah, even with two choir directors.

This is to put my post in more perspective, in personal terms. Voice is a big deal for me.
I think the reproduction of the human voice should be a big deal for all speakers. I love vocal music like you do and have a big collection. For me any speaker, or microphone for that matter that exhibits a trace of sibilance is a not to be used item.

I think for your tastes you have made a good choice. Interesting that you hear the transition to the bass driver also.

It is really tough to match the clarity and transparency of electrostatics in the mid and HF with moving coil speakers, but it is possible. You have to have good drivers and keep phase shifts and time smears to the absolute minimum. I think though of us who love music written for voice have that reference in our brains, as we are so familiar with it. It will find more problems than the test gear.

Also I always wonder how many of the listeners in these perceptual tests really have a good frame of reference as to what the kind of music you are talking about really sounds like. Having made hundreds of live recordings over the years, you soon have a good idea if a speaker can make a reasonable attempt at recreating the original sound.

I bet in your travels you did not find many speakers you could live with.

Anyhow I suspect you will have these speakers for many years to come.
 
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