Marriage in California

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highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
This case, and this thread, came about because the law was deemed unconstitutional by a judge, not a priest. Railing on religion won't help people see things your way (since people who hate religion are a small minority) and if you look at past history, countries where religion was officially outlawed have an extremely high rate of extraordinarily harsh human rights violations, which is a really mild way of saying that the leaders in those countries didn't/don't give a rat's *** about the people they rule. Stalin was responsible for approximately 50 Million deaths in the USSR and they outlawed religion. China has been well-known for killing female children because they wanted a stronger nation. They also had discouraged religion because the Communist Party thought it posed a danger to Communism. OTOH, countries where religion plays/played a strong role in how they make official policy have a long history of being extremely controlling and tend to try to tell everyone what they can do, when they can do it and how they can do it, along with being their own bag of human rights violations. The difference with this is who they can do it to. Getting married at a courthouse has been allowable for quite a while but it seems that it became a common practice when people A) didn't observe any religion or the couple didn't observe the same one and didn't feel it necessary to require one of them to convert, B) couldn't afford to be married the usual way or, C) they couldn't wait. Marriage is more of a legal proposition now and as such, it's subject to approval/disapproval by voters. People have strong feelings about gays without even going into the whole "should they marry?" and "define civil union vs marriage and what legal ramifications does each carry" area. Some will look at it in terms of how their benefits will be affected at work- a couple, gay or straight, who engages in risky sexual behavior, drug/alcohol abuse or generally bad health will usually cost the company a lot more than a nice, wholesome couple. Most people base their opinions on traditions and it takes a long time to change that. It won't happen overnight and if people don't want it to change, they make rules against it. Democracy is about the majority getting their way, right or wrong. If not, what's the point of voting? We don't live in a pure Democracy, though- this is, or was, a Federal Republic and that has rules about how much control the Federal government can have over the individual states. Each state, republic or commonwealth has its own charter or constitution outlining what its people can & can't do as well as defining the role of that state's government. If the Central government doesn't address an issue or specifically designates it as such, it's a "state's rights" decision.

Our Constitution doesn't forbid religious practice but at the same time, it explicitly forbids the US from having an official one. It's worded the way it is so people can observe any religion they want and if they don't want to, that's OK, too. Almost like saying, "Buddhism- take it, or leave it". What has happened is, the small minority of people who don't observe a religion have decided that when they see ANY mention of God or religion, they're being forced to deal with it.

You wrote that the Christian religion opposes same-sex marriage but some denominations have openly gay clergy. Others have not-so-openly gay clergy. How a celibate priest can council people on marriage is beyond my pay grade to understand.

I don't remember hearing anyone complain about JFK being religious (assuming he observed in his own way, because he has a helluva reputation as a horndog) but he was the first Roman Catholic President and that made some serious waves. I don't remember anyone complaining about Carter praying and being "Born Again". I don't remember anyone having a hard time with Clinton going to various churches and if he/Hillary are actually religious in the traditional sense, they pray and ask for guidance whether they admit it, or not. I never saw Bush I or W telling people that they HAD to observe a religion, yet W gets skewered everywhere for his religious beliefs.

Last time I checked, no state in America was governed by the church, of any kind, with the possible exception of Utah. I was genuinely surprised when CA banned gay marriage. Of all states, I would have thought they were most likely to accept it with open arms.
 
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adwilk

adwilk

Audioholic Ninja
Certainly the writers of the Constitution and Declaration felt some need to weave the documents with a bit of a religious undertone. I'm not sure there's much of an argument there, although the apparent need for separation of church and state was indicated; based primarily on their need for independence in the first place.... I think its fairly clear that the original writers' moral compass was based on a Monotheistic Creator Christian God Something.

How can we possibly throw out a moral compass of any kind and still accurately interpret law?

I think its sad that our legal system might give puppies more rights than an unborn human child.

People overcome biological issues everyday to live productive lives in our society without help from the government. Why should gay marriage be any different? Please understand that statement in a sort of where do you draw the line? Civil unions were established for organized procreation and the beneficial assistance for that specific purpose. Legal marriage and Holy Matrimony used to go hand in hand and I'm ok with eliminating that tie. Without the possibility of "raising a family", why should the government grant any benefit?

Say what you want about the moral implications I'm making, but make no mistake that the referred documents were drawn up with the assumption that some moral character of the people would be in place. You want to throw out any moral consideration? You might as well throw out the Constitution....

How can you hide behind the principals of the Constitution and demand its guaranteed rights when you can't respect its origins?
 
G

Gizmologist

Junior Audioholic
Genesis, Deuteronomy and Leviticus

Since no one knows who wrote genesis and it also contains some rather fanciful imaginary stories, it matters not. Since Deut and Lev contain numerous admonitions with the same penalty of death for everyday minor infractions and supposedly major issues, anyone following them would be in prison for murder and mayhem so they matter not.

Anyone who SAYS they follow the Bible to the letter is an abject liar as well.

The Bible was composed by men (several supposedly Christian sects) several hundred years after Jesus' death and was heavily edited during compilation during the reign of Constantine. God did NOT write the Bible. Men did and they wrote and edited the majority to enforce control over their countrymen. Much the same as is being done today.

Some of the most Christian hearted folks never go to church and many are not even Christian by definition. Read or listen some of the Dalai Lama's teachings. You will be amazed.
 
Tarub

Tarub

Senior Audioholic
IBTL

Bubba is right.

 
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Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
Sounds like we can't see the forest, because of all those damn trees.:D

To try to get this back on course, and weed through the usual political hacks that don't know politics, and the religious bashers, and the Master-debaters.:) (There were also some great posts too; mine were not among those)

Consider this: The OP, while being a bit over the top, had a point I'd like to redirect us to, if I may. (the OP's 2 middle paragraphs bring up an interesting point)
City Hall: "Next." "Good morning. We want to apply for a marriage license." "Names?" "Tim and Jim Jones." "Jones? Are you related? I see a resemblance." "Yes, we're brothers." "Brothers? You can't get married." "Why not? Aren't you giving marriage licenses to same gender couples?" "Yes, thousands. But we haven't had any siblings. That's incest!" "Incest?" No, we are not gay." "Not gay? Then why do you want to get married?" "For the financial benefits, of course. And we do love each other. Besides, we don't have any other prospects." "But we're issuing marriage licenses to gay and lesbian couples who've been denied equal protection under the law. If you are not gay, you can get married to a woman." "Wait a minute. A gay man has the same right to marry a woman as I have. But just because I'm straight doesn't mean I want to marry a woman. I want to marry Jim." "And I want to marry Tim, Are you going to discriminate against us just because we are not gay?" "All right, all right. I'll give you your license. Next."

"Hi. We are here to get married." "Names?" "John Smith, Jane James, Robert Green, and June Johnson." "Who wants to marry whom?" "We all want to marry each other." "But there are four of you!" "That's right. You see, we're all bisexual. I love Jane and Robert, Jane loves me and June, June loves Robert and Jane, and Robert loves June and me. All of us getting married together is the only way that we can express our sexual preferences in a marital relationship." "But we've only been granting licenses to gay and lesbian couples." "So you're discriminating against bisexuals!" "No, it's just that, well, the traditional idea of marriage is that it's just for couples." "Since when are you standing on tradition?" "Well, I mean, you have to draw the line somewhere." "Who says? There's no logical reason to limit marriage to couples. The more the better. Besides, we demand our rights! The Judge says the constitution guarantees equal protection under the law. Give us a marriage license!" "All right, all right. Next."
Added is my question below:
If they change the laws to allow gays to marry; ( I agree with that, btw) Why stop there? I want to keep my current wife and also marry a hot Asian woman too.
I can't because this new law has excluded me, and Ming Lee.:)
All because I'm not among a big enough special interest group, or lobby, and I don't comprise a big enough voting block.:(
How did they allow a vote (Prop8) that some claim takes away rights, but they want this gay marriage law that excludes me and Ming Lee, and limits our rights?
 
gmichael

gmichael

Audioholic Spartan
Well, population is getting out of hand. Maybe this will slow down the growth.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Certainly the writers of the Constitution and Declaration felt some need to weave the documents with a bit of a religious undertone. I'm not sure there's much of an argument there, although the apparent need for separation of church and state was indicated; based primarily on their need for independence in the first place.... I think its fairly clear that the original writers' moral compass was based on a Monotheistic Creator Christian God Something.

How can we possibly throw out a moral compass of any kind and still accurately interpret law?

I think its sad that our legal system might give puppies more rights than an unborn human child.

People overcome biological issues everyday to live productive lives in our society without help from the government. Why should gay marriage be any different? Please understand that statement in a sort of where do you draw the line? Civil unions were established for organized procreation and the beneficial assistance for that specific purpose. Legal marriage and Holy Matrimony used to go hand in hand and I'm ok with eliminating that tie. Without the possibility of "raising a family", why should the government grant any benefit?

Say what you want about the moral implications I'm making, but make no mistake that the referred documents were drawn up with the assumption that some moral character of the people would be in place. You want to throw out any moral consideration? You might as well throw out the Constitution....

How can you hide behind the principals of the Constitution and demand its guaranteed rights when you can't respect its origins?
There's no reason to assume they were leaning to ward any particular religion and many of the signors were Masons, which like their members to see some higher power as responsible for things.

IMO, religions are for instilling a sense of morality and to make people think they aren't Top Dog in the universe, so they don't just do whatever they want. We know what happens when they do- it doesn't go well and it never has, so a sense that "If I do this, xxxx will happen to me because of it". Bad deeds used to come with consequences but that's not always the case now that lawyers have manipulated the legal system to the extent they have. Laws exist for the same reasons and they impose penalties for actions that don't fall under the umbrella of "approved actions" in a secular way. Religions usually have some way of atoning for acts that are bad, sinful or worse. Minor sins are like misdemeanors and major ones, called 'Mortal Sins' by some, are equivalent to capital offenses. For someone who doesn't observe any religion, I would like to challenge them to show why these aren't relevant in any society, past or present:

5. You shall not dishonor your parents.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not commit perjury.
10. You shall not covet.

Just about every other law falls under one of these unless, of course, it's a country where the religious scholars are in charge. It used to be that most of those with education were in monasteries and the rabble were kept out if they weren't part of the privileged class, so they could be controlled.

Oh, wait- that hasn't changed.
 
Rickster71

Rickster71

Audioholic Spartan
I don't remember hearing anyone complain about JFK being religious (assuming he observed in his own way, because he has a helluva reputation as a horndog) but he was the first Roman Catholic President and that made some serious waves.
True,... every time he banged Marilyn Monroe he prayed like crazy.:D
 
C

Chu Gai

Audioholic Samurai
Why does one need religion to instill a sense of right and wrong?
 
gmichael

gmichael

Audioholic Spartan
Why does one need religion to instill a sense of right and wrong?
You don't need it, but it sure does help. The lack of religion often yields the opposite effect. If you leave it out, then the slack muct be picked up somewhere. Good parenting is great, but good parenting in conjunction with a community that believes in values is better.
That said, I think that gays should be able to have civil unions. But it should not be called a marriage. Marriage was defined by most religions as a joining of a man and a woman. If these religions do not want to redefine the word they came up with, then let gays have the same rights through “civil unions.”
 
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1

10010011

Senior Audioholic
Why does one need religion to instill a sense of right and wrong?
Because apparently without the fear of eternal damnation none of the religious people would have any reason to be good people.

:confused:
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
... China has been well-known for killing female children because they wanted a stronger nation. ...

No. First of all, China does not have a policy of legally killing female children, for any reason whatsoever. However, many people in China have a preference for sons, and so some of them illegally kill their female children, some as a result of the one child policy that China has adopted to keep their population from increasing as it had in the past (they had about 1/4 of the world population, but did not have anywhere near 1/4 of the world's resources, which is a serious problem for them). The one child policy has many exceptions, which you can read about at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-child_policy

The desire for having sons has to do with social issues in China, and has nothing to do with the country or individuals wanting a "stronger nation". The Chinese government is against people killing female children. The Chinese government may be justly blamed for many things, but not for advocating the killing of female children.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Why does one need religion to instill a sense of right and wrong?
You don't need it, but it sure does help. The lack of religion often yields the opposite effect. If you leave it out, then the slack muct be picked up somewhere. Good parenting is great, but good parenting in conjunction with a community that believes in values is better.
That said, I think that gays should be able to have civil unions. But it should not be called a marriage. Marriage was defined by most religions as a joining of a man and a woman. If these religions do not want to redefine the word they came up with, then let gays have the same rights through “civil unions.”
I have not noticed any help in virtue by people being religious. In fact, quite a few people who are especially religious have committed some of the most heinous crimes. Sometimes they commit the crimes because of their religion, as, for example, the burning of "witches" and such. Other times, their actions go directly counter to their professed beliefs, as, for example, priests molesting children. I see no evidence at all that religious people are more virtuous than irreligious people. If you have such evidence, please present it.

A quick online search has indicated that the opposite is likely the case:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article571206.ece

See also:

http://moses.creighton.edu/JRS/2005/2005-11.html

We could also wade through FBI crime statistics regarding religiously motivated hate crimes:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2007/incidents.htm

So some crimes are caused by religion, and it has not been shown that religion prevents crime, and statistically speaking, it seems extremely unlikely judging from what I have found in a quick search.
 
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