Mark Levinson № 515 Turntable Preview

everettT

everettT

Audioholic Spartan
*still waiting for Dr. Mark to chime in on his 3 units*
Outside of the arm and cartridge firstly, motor and drive mechanism second, platter and table lastly, the first seems to be the only ones that could effect Sound in a way as described by @matteos, aside from poor pressings.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
There's definitely some work to keep the rumble down. Although I think it's a problem that has been way overblown. But in a $10k record player you can easily get rumble to absolutely nothing. There are other bigger advantages that idlers have. They don't have the wow and flutter of belts (neither do DD's though) and they have bigger, tighter bass, better speed accuracy, they are more dynamic and they have better imaging/soundstage... They're really better in every way than the other systems IMHO. I wish a big name company with resources behind their name who aren't afraid of putting out a statement piece would consider an idler system. We've got statement Direct Drives like the Technics SP10, but now most manufacturers only put out belt drives (so many statement belt drives - who cares?) which is a real shame.
I really doubt that an idler could get better speed accuracy than a quartz crystal phase locked loop (i.e. Technics SL1200)
 
W

William Sommerwerck

Enthusiast
The LP is inherently inferior to the CD and SACD. (Heck, it's inferior to open-reel tape.) As far as recordings using these media are concerned, any of them can be good/pleasing or bad. But $10K will drastically expand your music library. I appreciate well-designed and well-made equipment, but I'm basically a music lover.
 
B

BenjaminS

Audiophyte
If you are interested in purchasing this, then I have a very nice horse and buggy I would like to sell you for the small sum of $85,000. P.T. Barnum was right.
 
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sterling shoote

Audioholic Field Marshall
With turntables out there today that cost beyond a quarter of a million dollars, it appears the idea is to get the greatest mechanical precision and isolation from miniscule vibration. This begs two questions, how much precision and isolation are necessary for the best results; and, is it possible to get those results from a turntable that costs less. Now, since measurement devices of all sorts are available to answer these questions, it would seem easy enough to just look at the measurements to discern the expense necessary to get the amount of precision and vibration isolation required to get the best results from the LP. Thing is, I have never seen a review which has published any performance measurements for "high-end" turntables. I am betting however that most folks would not be able to discern a quarter of a million dollar experience from a $1699.99 Technics SL-1200GR experience. I have a 40 year old Sony PS-4750, now fitted with a Shure M97xE; and, my experiments tell me I usually can only distinguish an LP from CD when I hear a pop somewhere in the recording. If I digitize the LP utilizing a pop filter, I can not at all distinguish LPs from CDs. I can distinguish SACDs from LPs as the dynamic range is better on SACDs, at least on classical music. BTW, I do prefer vinyl to iTunes. With iTunes power, it's tempting to apply the power in a quest to hear everything that's ever been recorded. With vinyl, relaxation is forced, at least for twenty minutes or so.
 
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William Sommerwerck

Enthusiast
Measurements are meaningless unless we're certain we're hearing what we think we're hearing. What is measurable is not necessarily audible (though what is audible should be measurable).

My opinion is that the entire turntable system has to be as non-resonant and as acoustically "dead" as possible. (This includes the platter's ability to damp the disk.) I doubt your Sony comes close to meeting these criteria -- not to mention the fact that most pickups lack the basically flat response of even a cheap CD player.

That you do not hear a difference says that something is wrong, but I won't speculate as to what it is. Even if your hearing rolls off above 8kHz, you should hear a difference.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
I'm of the school of thought that if you were to build a perfect turntable (say, noise down -130dB, zero play in the cartridge/arm, perfect speed consistency to the hundredths at least, of an RPM, maybe even a perfect non-contact {optical} cartridge) that you take away everything that is enjoyable about vinyl.

I want *some* of those criteria but everything in one package to the nth degree, I'm not so sure about.

Me, I'll take a reasonably good table over a perfect one, a cartridge that exhibits the same kinds of deviations from perfect as a microphone or loudspeaker, and the option to "voice" a vinyl playback system to my idea of euphonic nirvana.

I think that once you get past perhaps the $2K~5K range, you are done (sans cartridge), and once you move past the under $2K options is where the improvements really start to diminish what makes vinyl fun. Audio is, after all, about enjoyment, which is not necessarily the same thing as clinical perfection, at least in every case.

I *like* playing around with different cartridges, just as I like exploring different microphones in recording and different speakers in playback. Those are the areas where imperfection means making choices, to an extent greater than, say, different electronics.

Anything beyond that starts to get into taking the enjoyment out of the picture and starts to move into the land of ... not sure of the right word but something like "sterile", although a really good vinyl playback system is not actually sterile ... sonics.

I've owned (or had at home on loan) some very good turntables and arms over the years. But i've "downgraded" to a "nice" vinyl playback system which I enjoy more. It's still up there but not perfect, assuming, perhaps unjustifiably, that's even possible. Sometimes it's better to just be honest with yourself and stop chasing the dragon.

It is, to a large extent, a respite from digital where I actually do want zero error reproduction. Having both is, to me, one of the things that makes this hobby enjoyable.
 
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sterling shoote

Audioholic Field Marshall
Measurements are meaningless unless we're certain we're hearing what we think we're hearing. What is measurable is not necessarily audible (though what is audible should be measurable).

My opinion is that the entire turntable system has to be as non-resonant and as acoustically "dead" as possible. (This includes the platter's ability to damp the disk.) I doubt your Sony comes close to meeting these criteria -- not to mention the fact that most pickups lack the basically flat response of even a cheap CD player.

That you do not hear a difference says that something is wrong, but I won't speculate as to what it is. Even if your hearing rolls off above 8kHz, you should hear a difference.
My Sony PS-4750 is non-resonant and acoustically dead as possible. Nothing wrong with my hearing. Nothing is wrong. My point, which you may have missed, is if measurements describe performance then it would seem it could be discerned when enough is enough. I mention my turntable, which is not at all by any measure the best or even close, since it is appartently getting everything from the groove, sounding like CDs, making me wonder what is the point of spending more for what may be perceived as being "better" when it is clear the only better might be in the turntable's visual appeal.
 
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sterling shoote

Audioholic Field Marshall
I'm of the school of thought that if you were to build a perfect turntable (say, noise down -130dB, zero play in the cartridge/arm, perfect speed consistency to the hundredths at least, of an RPM, maybe even a perfect non-contact {optical} cartridge) that you take away everything that is enjoyable about vinyl.

I want *some* of those criteria but everything in one package to the nth degree, I'm not so sure about.

Me, I'll take a reasonably good table over a perfect one, a cartridge that exhibits the same kinds of deviations from perfect as a microphone or loudspeaker, and the option to "voice" a vinyl playback system to my idea of euphonic nirvana.

I think that once you get past perhaps the $2K~5K range, you are done (sans cartridge), and once you move past the under $2K options is where the improvements really start to diminish what makes vinyl fun. Audio is, after all, about enjoyment, which is not necessarily the same thing as clinical perfection, at least in every case.

I *like* playing around with different cartridges, just as I like exploring different microphones in recording and different speakers in playback. Those are the areas where imperfection means making choices, to an extent greater than, say, different electronics.

Anything beyond that starts to get into taking the enjoyment out of the picture and starts to move into the land of ... not sure of the right word but something like "sterile", although a really good vinyl playback system is not actually sterile ... sonics.

I've owned (or had at home on loan) some very good turntables and arms over the years. But i've "downgraded" to a "nice" vinyl playback system which I enjoy more. It's still up there but not perfect, assuming, perhaps unjustifiably, that's even possible. Sometimes it's better to just be honest with yourself and stop chasing the dragon.

It is, to a large extent, a respite from digital where I actually do want zero error reproduction. Having both is, to me, one of the things that makes this hobby enjoyable.
OK, so turntable perfection does not appeal to you, since it precludes involvement, which is important to you. I get that. I do wonder though what is it that compels someone laying out a quarter of a million dollars on a turntable. Of course, no doubt such a person does not need to budget. But, I would hope this person is also a hobbyist philanthropist.
 
W

William Sommerwerck

Enthusiast
My Sony PS-4750 is non-resonant and acoustically dead as possible. Nothing wrong with my hearing. Nothing is wrong. My point, which you may have missed, is if measurements describe performance then it would seem it could be discerned when enough is enough. I mention my turntable, which is not at all by any measure the best or even close, since it is apparently getting everything from the groove, sounding like CDs, making me wonder what is the point of spending more for what may be perceived as being "better" when it is clear the only better might be in the turntable's visual appeal.
What you do not understand, Mr Shoote, is that for measurements to describe performance, we have to know what that performance is in the first place -- that is, what is audible and what is not. I think I made that pretty clear. If you think your "Sony PS-4750 is non-resonant and acoustically dead as possible", you should put the Sony up against a Well-Tempered 'table and arm, which will significantly better it in terms of damping ability and lack of resonances.

Given the significant differences in distortion and frequency response of LPs and CDs, there is no way an LP and CD can be sonically indistinguishable, even if the turntable and CD player they were auditioned on met the theoretical measures of "perfection" for that device. I did not say there was anything wrong with your hearing -- but that if there were, you should still be able to hear that difference. The one point on which we semi-agree is that there is a point -- probably around $3K -- where a turntable and arm become sufficiently "inert" acoustically that they no longer have a significant audible effect.
 
W

William Sommerwerck

Enthusiast
I'm of the school of thought that if you were to build a perfect turntable (say, noise down -130dB, zero play in the cartridge/arm, perfect speed consistency to the hundredths at least, of an RPM, maybe even a perfect non-contact {optical} cartridge) that you take away everything that is enjoyable about vinyl.

Bravo. What a pleasure it is to meet someone who thoroughly understands the difference between accuracy and euphony, and doesn't confuse them.

I agree with Dave Wilson's remark that people who lack recording experience aren't likely to make good evaluations of what is and isn't accurate. I used to make live recordings, and I'm reasonably certain my reviews were less-bad than they would have been without that experience.

When time allows, I hope to post an article about what's needed to put recording and listening evaluations on a properly scientific basis. Unfortunately, the process is complex and expensive -- and likely to produce findings that anger many people.
 
slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
What you do not understand, Mr Shoote, is that for measurements to describe performance, we have to know what that performance is in the first place -- that is, what is audible and what is not. I think I made that pretty clear. If you think your "Sony PS-4750 is non-resonant and acoustically dead as possible", you should put the Sony up against a Well-Tempered 'table and arm, which will significantly better it in terms of damping ability and lack of resonances.

Given the significant differences in distortion and frequency response of LPs and CDs, there is no way an LP and CD can be sonically indistinguishable, even if the turntable and CD player they were auditioned on met the theoretical measures of "perfection" for that device. I did not say there was anything wrong with your hearing -- but that if there were, you should still be able to hear that difference. The one point on which we semi-agree is that there is a point -- probably around $3K -- where a turntable and arm become sufficiently "inert" acoustically that they no longer have a significant audible effect.
I have some vinyl that sounds better than the CD.

Often, mastering is the key, not the medium.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
OK, so turntable perfection does not appeal to you, since it precludes involvement, which is important to you. I get that. I do wonder though what is it that compels someone laying out a quarter of a million dollars on a turntable. Of course, no doubt such a person does not need to budget. But, I would hope this person is also a hobbyist philanthropist.
In my experience, it's not so much "someone laying out a quarter of a million dollars on a turntable" so much as these things sell to corporations involved in the industry in one way or another. Maybe a record company, maybe a company involved in audio in some way. Think functional sculpture rather than someone's home audio system.

There are odd exceptions where some well heeled person ... I hesitate to call them "audiophiles" as they probably aren't ... buys one just because they can. Also, products priced in these stratospheric levels don't sell in quantity; we're talking twos and fours, rarely dozens and I would guess never hundreds. Some of these products that we read and hear about are considered successes if they sell just one. Ever.

It's not something we mere mortals need to concern ourselves with. I suppose that's why I don't really understand all the criticism; it's not something I would buy, even if I could easily afford it, and even if I honestly believed it to be "the best turntable in the world". I don't need the best turntable in the world to enjoy music.

Even if I did, I honestly don't see any cartridges in the market that would justify the turntable purchase, there is a discontinuity there, and there are some pretty pricey cartridges out there.

Finally, I know for a certainty that you can get world class state-of-the-art turntable performance for way, way less than 250 large. It's not that perfection isn't important to me, it actually is. But not with turntables simply because the entire vinyl ecosystem can't ever be perfect. The nature of the beast. It's an inherently imperfect medium, and I am OK with embracing that imperfection, with appreciating and truly enjoying it's quirks.

If you're chasing vinyl perfection, you're deluding yourself and will never be satisfied in my humble opinion. It's just not possible with that medium*, and perhaps more importantly, not possible to a degree that the rest of a modern system, for the most part, doesn't have to concern itself with, because the rest of the system, loudspeakers excepted to a degree, actually can and justifiably should seek perfection, if only because a modern HiFi, even one of relatively modest cost, can get so close.

So the product doesn't even justify itself as a performance piece. It's jewelry, and should be seen as such. F Scott Fitzgerald famously wrote "the rich aren't the same as you and me".** I'm OK with putting these products where they belong, which is not in my (or if I may speak for the members here, our) world.

* Pressing plants can't even guarantee they can place the centre spindle hole in the centre of the groove radius. They can't guarantee it because they can't do it. They can come close; that's your "precision" benchmark and it makes speed variations beyond some rather large fractions of a percent inherent in the medium. It only takes a few hundred dollars worth of electronics to make a turntable platter spin at hundredths of a percent accuracy. What is the point of further precision? To what end?

** " ... “Let me tell you about the very rich. They are different from you and me. They possess and enjoy early, and it does something to them, makes them soft where we are hard, and cynical where we are trustful, in a way that, unless you were born rich, it is very difficult to understand. ..."
-F Scott Fitzgerald, 'The Rich Boy', 1926
 
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sterling shoote

Audioholic Field Marshall
In my experience, it's not so much "someone laying out a quarter of a million dollars on a turntable" so much as these things sell to corporations involved in the industry in one way or another. Maybe a record company, maybe a company involved in audio in some way. Think functional sculpture rather than someone's home audio system.

There are odd exceptions where some well heeled person ... I hesitate to call them "audiophiles" as they probably aren't ... buys one just because they can. Also, products priced in these stratospheric levels don't sell in quantity; we're talking twos and fours, rarely dozens and I would guess never hundreds. Some of these products that we read and hear about are considered successes if they sell just one. Ever.

It's not something we mere mortals need to concern ourselves with. I suppose that's why I don't really understand all the criticism; it's not something I would buy, even if I could easily afford it, and even if I honestly believed it to be "the best turntable in the world". I don't need the best turntable in the world to enjoy music.

Even if I did, I honestly don't see any cartridges in the market that would justify the turntable purchase, there is a discontinuity there, and there are some pretty pricey cartridges out there.

Finally, I know for a certainty that you can get world class state-of-the-art turntable performance for way, way less than 250 large. It's not that perfection isn't important to me, it actually is. But not with turntables simply because the entire vinyl ecosystem can't ever be perfect. The nature of the beast. It's an inherently imperfect medium, and I am OK with embracing that imperfection, with appreciating and truly enjoying it's quirks.

If you're chasing vinyl perfection, you're deluding yourself and will never be satisfied in my humble opinion. It's just not possible with that medium*, and perhaps more importantly, not possible to a degree that the rest of a modern system, for the most part, doesn't have to concern itself with, because the rest of the system, loudspeakers excepted to a degree, actually can and justifiably should seek perfection, if only because a modern HiFi, even one of relatively modest cost, can get so close.

So the product doesn't even justify itself as a performance piece. It's jewelry, and should be seen as such. F Scott Fitzgerald famously wrote "the rich aren't the same as you and me".** I'm OK with putting these products where they belong, which is not in my (or if I may speak for the members here, our) world.

* Pressing plants can't even guarantee they can place the centre spindle hole in the centre of the groove radius. They can't guarantee it because they can't do it. They can come close; that's your "precision" benchmark and it makes speed variations beyond some rather large fractions of a percent inherent in the medium. It only takes a few hundred dollars worth of electronics to make a turntable platter spin at hundredths of a percent accuracy. What is the point of further precision? To what end?

** " ... “Let me tell you about the very rich. They are different from you and me. They possess and enjoy early, and it does something to them, makes them soft where we are hard, and cynical where we are trustful, in a way that, unless you were born rich, it is very difficult to understand. ..."
-F Scott Fitzgerald, 'The Rich Boy', 1926
Your take on it is similar to mine. I have been listening to informed opinions about why vinyl is making a comeback. This caused me to dust off my turntable to take another spin or two with it to determine if I might be missing some pleasures; so, I played some LPs of music I also had on CD and SACD. I was surprised that other than the snap, crackle, and pop, the LP's sounded very much like the digital versions. If it were not for the occasional pops some of my LP's actually seemed to sound better than my CDs of same material. I understand why; but, what was somewhat difficult to believe was I that I was getting this nice experience with a 40 year old turntable and $100 cartridge. This made me think, if I'm getting results with my turntable which seems to be extracting all there is in the groove, what could spending more on a "better" turntable yield? Maybe, with an assumed upgrade I might get an impression of "better" but, I really don't have the budget to experiment with that notion. I do find it interesting though that audio hobbyists are so passionate about vinyl. I'm certain however I will not be drawn into the arguments, since just a pop or two, spoils it for me. Perhaps, that's why my turntable sat idle for almost 20 years. At any rate, I've concluded that for me today the turntable is mostly about digitizing vinyl and removing the pops from it to enjoy in my iTunes Library.
 
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sterling shoote

Audioholic Field Marshall
I really doubt that an idler could get better speed accuracy than a quartz crystal phase locked loop (i.e. Technics SL1200)
If I do upgrade, I would for sure buy the Technics SL-1210GR. It has a few features which make it very compelling. One is its 52mm stylus overhang, which matches the Ortofon 2M PNP Series integrated cartridge/head shell. I also like that the VTA is adjustable, and that the unit allows for a cartridge's stylus force to be measured without having to unplug the unit, which I need to do with my Sony, since its arm lifter is also the power switch. $1700 is a lot of money for me however and it competes with my interest in the recently announced JBL L100 Classic speaker. I'm kind of frugal, still feeling somewhat guilty buying an OPPO 205 last week. It is working out though, as I perceive I am getting really good sound from it, better than with the Sony VDP-S9000, which it replaced.
 
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slipperybidness

slipperybidness

Audioholic Warlord
If I do upgrade, I would for sure buy the Technics SL-1210GR. It has a few features which make it very compelling. One is its 52mm stylus overhang, which matches the Ortofon 2M PNP Series integrated cartridge/head shell. I also like that the VTA is adjustable, and that the unit allows for a cartridge's stylus force to be measured without having to unplug the unit, which I need to do with my Sony, since its arm lifter is also the power switch. $1700 is a lot of money for me however and it competes with my interest in the recently announced JBL L100 Classic speaker. I'm kind of frugal, still feeling somewhat guilty buying an OPPO 205 last week. It is working out though, as I perceive I am getting really good sound from it, better than with the Sony VDP-S9000, which it replaced.
I have an SL1210, mostly b/c I wanted the black model vs. the silver SL1200.

I bought it new many years ago. I had always wanted an SL model and when they were discontinued I pulled the trigger ASAP.

It's likely worth more now on the open market than what I paid for it.

I'm fairly happy with my Pro-Ject Debut Carbon. There are a few nitpicks on it, but at this point I may as well hold onto it and use it, I would have to sell it and spend likely 2x the price to really get past those nitpicks. Not worth it to me in the slightest, especially with an SL1210 on hand too.
 
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