Mar a Lago raided by FBI

GO-NAD!

GO-NAD!

Audioholic Spartan
From the 11th Circuit decision:

>>>the declassification argument is a red herring because declassifying an official document would not change its content or render it personal. So even if we assumed that Plaintiff did declassify some or all of the documents, that would not explain why he has a personal interest in them<<<

The court's statement is in the context of Trump's request for return of the documents. In order to prevail, Trump would need to prevail based on the factors listed in Richey v. Smith, 515 F.2d 1239 (5th Cir. 1975).

This is Richey factor (2) listed in the 11th Circuit decision:

>>>The factors a court should consider when deciding whether to exercise
jurisdiction include (1) whether the government “displayed a
callous disregard for . . . constitutional rights” in seizing the items
at issue; (2) “whether the plaintiff has an individual interest in and
need for the material whose return he seeks;” (3) “whether the
plaintiff would be irreparably injured by denial of the return of the
property;” and (4) “whether the plaintiff has an adequate remedy
at law for the redress of his grievance.”<<<

Nevertheless, the court's statement that "the declassification argument is a red herring because declassifying an official document would not change its content" undoubtedly applies to the criminal laws, Sections 793, 2071, and 1519, listed in the search warrant:

>>>Because Section 793 predates the modern system of classifying sensitive material, it does not use the phrase classified information. Instead, the statute protects information and material “relating to” or “connected with” national defense—often called national defense information. . . .
Another statute cited in the Mar-a-Lago search warrant and affidavit is 18 U.S.C. § 2071, which generally prohibits, among other things, willfully and unlawfully concealing, removing, mutilating, obliterating, or destroying a “record,” “paper,” or “document” that is “filed or deposited with any clerk or officer of any court of the United States, or in any public office, or with any judicial or public officer of the United States.” . . .
The Mar-a-Lago warrant and affidavit also lists 18 U.S.C. § 1519—a statute criminalizing certain acts of destruction of evidence in obstruction of certain federal investigations or proceedings. Congress intended § 1519 to have a broad scope, and prosecutors have used it to charge an array of behaviors aimed at undermining investigations, including creating false reports, hiding objects, and shredding documents. <<<

https://crsreports.congress.gov/product/pdf/LSB/LSB10810

In other words, as of right now "declassification" is completely irrelvant to any legal issue that has been raised by the DOJ.

Having said that, Trump would need to prove he declassified the documents if the DOJ were to indict him on additional charges under Section 1924:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1924

If the DOJ indicts Trump under Sections 793, 2071, and 1519, I'd expect them to also indict him under 1924.
The fact that his legal team did not assert that the records had been declassified is significant, isn't it? Could they face their own legal sanctioning if they claimed something they knew to be false?

After six years, I'm still amazed that the American people voted this clown into office.

 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Samurai
Well getting into fraud based on property values Fla Law : Florida laws states : 625.161; Real property owned by an insurer which is reported in financial statements filed with the office shall be valued at the lower of depreciated cost or fair market value.

Trumpo overvalued his propterty values and I Hope out of this, the insurer, his real estate lawyer, the appraiser are also held accountable.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Field Marshall
The fact that his legal team did not assert that the records had been declassified is significant, isn't it? Could they face their own legal sanctioning if they claimed something they knew to be false?
"The fact that his legal team did not assert that the records had been declassified is significant, isn't it?"

To my mind it is. If they have evidence of this, why not file it in court?

"Could they face their own legal sanctioning if they claimed something they knew to be false?"

Yes. This appears to be why they haven't filed anything. They probably have no reliable evidence that the records records had been declassified.

Trump's lawyers have been indirectly raising the issue by asserting that the government hasn't proven that the documents were not declassified. This is a red herring because 1) the government does not have to prove this, and 2) even if the government was required to prove it, all evidence of record shows that the documents were in fact classified. Even a scintilla of evidence beats zero evidence.

A key aspect of the situation is that Trump filed a civil lawsuit requesting return of the documents, and he therefore bears the burden of proof on every issue. There is presently no criminal indictment, but the District Court judge seems to have conflated a potential criminal case with the civil case she is presiding over. Of course, Trumps lawyers have done their best to muddy the water.

The District Court judge bit on the red herring and stated that there was a dispute about the classification status of the documents, but this is incorrect because there is no dispute because there is no evidence of record showing that any documents were declassified.

However, like the 11th Circuit, the Special Master didn't bite:

>>>Dearie, 78, engaged succinctly with the parties during the session. He noted that the current litigation filed by Trump is civil in nature, since no criminal charges have been filed, so the burden of proof is on Trump to back up any assertion of privilege or other protected interest in the documents. <<<

 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Ninja
The fact that his legal team did not assert that the records had been declassified is significant, isn't it? Could they face their own legal sanctioning if they claimed something they knew to be false?
The current joke is that MAGA stands for Make Attorneys Get Attorneys. ;)
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
"The fact that his legal team did not assert that the records had been declassified is significant, isn't it?"

To my mind it is. If they have evidence of this, why not file it in court?

"Could they face their own legal sanctioning if they claimed something they knew to be false?"

Yes. This appears to be why they haven't filed anything. They probably have no reliable evidence that the records records had been declassified.

Trump's lawyers have been indirectly raising the issue by asserting that the government hasn't proven that the documents were not declassified. This is a red herring because 1) the government does not have to prove this, and 2) even if the government was required to prove it, all evidence of record shows that the documents were in fact classified. Even a scintilla of evidence beats zero evidence.

A key aspect of the situation is that Trump filed a civil lawsuit requesting return of the documents, and he therefore bears the burden of proof on every issue. There is presently no criminal indictment, but the District Court judge seems to have conflated a potential criminal case with the civil case she is presiding over. Of course, Trumps lawyers have done their best to muddy the water.

The District Court judge bit on the red herring and stated that there was a dispute about the classification status of the documents, but this is incorrect because there is no dispute because there is no evidence of record showing that any documents were declassified.

However, like the 11th Circuit, the Special Master didn't bite:

>>>Dearie, 78, engaged succinctly with the parties during the session. He noted that the current litigation filed by Trump is civil in nature, since no criminal charges have been filed, so the burden of proof is on Trump to back up any assertion of privilege or other protected interest in the documents. <<<

Maybe you could clarify something for me about this business. I understand that the justice department appealed the lower court's ruling. I understand that a Special Master was appointed. What confuses me is did both of these two, SM and Appellate judges overruled the abuse of that lower court and allowed DOJ to continue the
investigation with those classified documents. Or did the SM just happened to also speak out without the power to overrule?
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
Or did the SM just happened to also speak out without the power to overrule?
If I follow correctly:
I think the Special Master is responsible for setting thr Rules for his process, and part of that was in determining what makes sense, legally, and him identifying that there is not legal ground for dealing with the Classified Documents without actual proof of declassification by Trump, or in the actual ownership of said documents (however, that aspect is in the realm of the 11th circuit appeal, not the Special Master though he clearly sees the there being no standing in Trump's claim).
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
If I follow correctly:
I think the Special Master is responsible for setting thr Rules for his process, and part of that was in determining what makes sense, legally, and him identifying that there is not legal ground for dealing with the Classified Documents without actual proof of declassification by Trump, or in the actual ownership of said documents (however, that aspect is in the realm of the 11th circuit appeal, not the Special Master though he clearly sees the there being no standing in Trump's claim).
You have put that correctly and very succinctly. Expect zero tolerance for Trumps nonsense from here on out. This will all take a while, but Trump, his family and close associates are in very deep legal trouble.
 
ryanosaur

ryanosaur

Audioholic Overlord
You have put that correctly and very succinctly. Expect zero tolerance for Trumps nonsense from here on out. This will all take a while, but Trump, his family and close associates are in very deep legal trouble.
It is only a matter of time before he tries seeking relief from the Supreme Court. I do not think the 11th Circuit would rule in his favor upon further appeal en banc. The real concern is if the Conservative activism of Alito/Thomas/Kavanaugh/Berman/Gorsuch would somehow stand for Trump on some obscure grounds that only make sense to them and no other jurist.
Frankly I don't think he will have the standing with the SC, either, but I'm no pro. ;) More than anything, I would like to see them reject any such attempt in a simple unsigned motion denying his claims. :) This of course would be the quickest of potential outcomes and shut down any further legal maneuvering on Trump's part.
I expect we'll see his next step by end of day today... perhaps tomorrow.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Field Marshall
Maybe you could clarify something for me about this business. I understand that the justice department appealed the lower court's ruling. I understand that a Special Master was appointed. What confuses me is did both of these two, SM and Appellate judges overruled the abuse of that lower court and allowed DOJ to continue the
investigation with those classified documents. Or did the SM just happened to also speak out without the power to overrule?
As a result of the 11th Circuit decision, the classified documents will not go to the SM for review.

The SM was trying to figure out (prior to the 11th Circuit ruling) if he needed to get special clearance on a need to know basis for each of the documents so he could review them, or if the documents had already been declassified. Basically, the SM was saying that his job was almost impossible if the documents were still classified, and Trump's lawyers couldn't just sit on any evidence of declassification they might have, especially since Trump was the one who asked for the SM review in the first place (this was during a hearing with the SM, the 11th Circuit decision was handed down before the SM actually ruled on the issue either way). However, this is now a moot point, at least for the time being.

One perverse result of this is that Trump will not be forced to file any evidence he may have concerning declassification, so Trump can keep blabbing to the media that he declassified everything (even though the 11th Circuit stated very clearly that there is zero evidence of record that he declassified anything).

And so the ever-growing Trump legal world turns.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Ninja
Another "put up or shut up moment:"
More details in the link below where the Trump lawyers have until September 30 to submit a sworn declaration of items FBI allegedly planted.

 
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mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
It is only a matter of time before he tries seeking relief from the Supreme Court. I do not think the 11th Circuit would rule in his favor upon further appeal en banc. The real concern is if the Conservative activism of Alito/Thomas/Kavanaugh/Berman/Gorsuch would somehow stand for Trump on some obscure grounds that only make sense to them and no other jurist.
Frankly I don't think he will have the standing with the SC, either, but I'm no pro. ;) More than anything, I would like to see them reject any such attempt in a simple unsigned motion denying his claims. :) This of course would be the quickest of potential outcomes and shut down any further legal maneuvering on Trump's part.
I expect we'll see his next step by end of day today... perhaps tomorrow.
From what I heard this morning by legal types is that this action by the 11th cannot be appealed further as it lifted the stay, and the lower court also now stated it.

Chapter two: what about all the 10,000 + other government documents seized.
 
John Parks

John Parks

Audioholic Field Marshall
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Field Marshall
From what I heard this morning by legal types is that this action by the 11th cannot be appealed further as it lifted the stay, and the lower court also now stated it.
It appears to me that some of the commentary in the media concerning a possible appeal is incorrect. Sometimes you have to go to the lawnerd blogs to get the correct information (i.e. I believe the correct information is that 1) the 11th Circuit does not allow an en banc review, but Trump can try an appeal to the US Supreme Court if he wants to get his *ss handed to him again)("en banc" just means all judges from the 11th Circuit would issue another decision affirming or overturnign the 3 judge panel).

>>>So what happens next? The morning after the Eleventh Circuit’s ruling, Judge Cannon issued an order implementing the panel’s decision by striking the portions of her order enjoining the government’s use of classified documents and requiring the government to provide those documents to the special master. It’s not entirely clear whether the judge has the authority to issue such a ruling given the procedural posture of the case. If she does, this may moot any effort on Trump’s part to appeal the Eleventh Circuit’s ruling. But if Trump tries to appeal anyway, he’ll have to go directly to the Supreme Court and ask for the justices to vacate the stay, as the Eleventh Circuit does not allow en banc reconsideration of rulings on stays pending appeal. His odds of success before the Supreme Court on such a petition are, to put it kindly, low.<<<

It's somewhat amusing that judge Cannon improperly issued an order today striking portions of her earlier ruling (I believe the tweet by Conner Lynch that she lacks jurisdiction right now due to the appeal is correct).

So, poor judge Cannon is about to get even more egg on her face because she was in such a rush to implement the 11th Circuit decision.

 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Field Marshall
Have you read the case?

If not, my suggestion is to read the decision itself:


I think you will notice some clear differences between the facts in that case vs Trump's case.
 
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Trell

Trell

Audioholic Ninja
Do you even read the articles you link to? That unhinged trash piece from the thegatewaypundit defending Trump does not fly with any rational person.
 
gene

gene

Audioholics Master Chief
Administrator
The fact that his legal team did not assert that the records had been declassified is significant, isn't it? Could they face their own legal sanctioning if they claimed something they knew to be false?

After six years, I'm still amazed that the American people voted this clown into office.

Wow, the only thing I can think when watching this clip is Trump's brain is rotting from an untreated gonorrhea infection.
 
M

Mr._Clark

Audioholic Field Marshall
The fact that Trump even filed a civil action in an effort to block the criminal investigation reeks of desperation. If there was nothing incriminating in the documents he could just say "my bad, I didn't realize these were covered by the Presidential Records Act" and be done with it.

His actions have "guilty" written all over them.
 

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