LsiC or VM20 Polk Center Channel? or Something Else?

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eazyz

Audiophyte
I just purchased a pair of Polk Audio VM30's for my home theatre setup, but I am wanting to upgrade my center speaker as well. I am using a Yamaha RX-V663. Any thoughts on the what I am looking at? Anything else I should consider?
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
IMO while timbre matched centers are nice for once-in-a-while pans or multichannel music... vocal clarity is by far the most important thing in a center and often the most lacking especially when you get reasonably off-axis. I'd certainly focus on that before anything else.. otherwise you'll find that if you're sitting off axis (which is common in a non-dedicated HT) you're straining to know what they're saying, and turn up the volume to compensate, and then people sitting on axis complain about it being too loud! The Polk centers you're looking into appear to be MTM speakers, not to mention they're polks so they're probably pretty muddy and unclear in general.

My recommendation, then, would be a W/TM/W center with good mid range resolution and flat response, even if it means sacrificing that timbre-match. The center is your most important speaker in movie content and it should therefore be a good one for every seat.

My recommendation, then, would probably something like the Revel C12, Infinity Primus PC351, Aperion Intimus 4C/5C/6C or Verus Grand Center, or perhaps an Emotiva ERM-6.3. Look into those for example.
 
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ohskigod

Junior Audioholic
go with the vm20, especially if you like your VM30's. Keep it Timbre matched.

you picked the VM30's for a reason, choose your center for the same one.
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
The Polk centers you're looking into appear to be MTM speakers, not to mention they're polks so they're probably pretty muddy and unclear in general.
The CS2 (which is what I have ears plenty on) is a decent center channel... Has more than enough driver surface to get the job done.
 
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ohskigod

Junior Audioholic
Is he going to be listening to stereo recordings through his center channel?



a valid question, as the poster clearly stated he primarily bought a multichannel system to mostly listen to 2 channel.............oh ... wait.


I am comfortable assuming he bought a multichannel system to actually use the multichannel function at least a majority of the time, having the 3 speakers in the front sound stage made to work with eachother sounds like a no brainer to me, but some can disagree I suppose.

to argue that buying a center channel that will not be close to timbre matched is the right move based on the center not being needed for 2 channel listening is weaksauce for lack of a better phrase. If 2 channel was his primary concern and the basis for the OP decisions, he would have probably bought a 2 channel system. not trying to be inflammatory, just giving my opinion.


Incidentally, was there a chance your brand bias might have actually affected the advise you gave? I.E. do you always advocate non timbre matched centers for any other reason than brand dislike? just curious
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Timbre matching seems to be a YMMV sort of thing from what I have read other people having to say on it...

Screw timbre matching. Buy what sounds good, not what sounds similar.

I have to agree that you must let your ears be your judge; After listening to my friends setup; although unconventional it is amazingly effective; the dialogue is more focussed and detailed with the centre channel dominating through the vocals.

It is also a reasonably cost effective solution and although my HT system currently is timbre matched I am thinking of upgrading my centre channel to something different as well. Don’t be afraid to experiment and try something different; Let your ears be the judge.


For me, HT is just a diversion so timbre matching isn't something I lose a lot of sleep over. I have a LSiC and 2.3tl's up front and it works just fine for me.

So some people don't put that much importance on it. I prefer to keep my L/C/R uniform. But then again I haven't made a compromise in my speakers. I could see someone that had a lower end setup really needing a center channel bump since 90% of HT material is going to come through it.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
a valid question, as the poster clearly stated he primarily bought a multichannel system to mostly listen to 2 channel.............oh ... wait.
Tell me this, when you purchase a pair of speakers, how do you audition them? You said "you picked the VM30's for a reason, choose your center for the same one." yet you yourself could not qualify this reason. You could probably quantify it *cough* but that's about it.

I am comfortable assuming he bought a multichannel system to actually use the multichannel function at least a majority of the time, having the 3 speakers in the front sound stage made to work with eachother sounds like a no brainer to me, but some can disagree I suppose.
Very few movies are recorded with the "front three speakers made to work together". Movies are recorded with the L/R mains having dynamic special effects and "off screen dialogue" and the C having "on screen dialogue". The very occasional movie might have some panning left to right but it's usually so quick that our ears can't even hear any differences in timbre. Do you even know what timbre with respect to a loudspeaker is? It's error. Timbre matching simply means making all three speakers "get it wrong" all the same" which obviously means nothing since the VM30s and VM20s are not even the same speaker. The best form of timbre matching is simply getting it right. Having the same drivers usually doesn't mean anything. I could take the same 3 driver complement and make 100 different sounding speakers with them. "Buy within the same line" is marketting - we do it because they LOOK the same, not because they sound the same.

Hell, I could take the exact same speaker, tilt it on its sides, and it will sound different:

http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/vertical-vs-horizontal-speaker-designs/600-mtm-horizontally-oriented-measurements.html
http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/vertical-vs-horizontal-speaker-designs/600-mtm-vertically-oriented-measurements.html

If the polks are any good then you can pair them with any loudspeaker that gets it right and rarely hear an audible difference.

This issue of timbre comes from multi channel music recordings where the center carries just as much SIMULTANEOUS music content as the L/R mains and surrounds and you can hear different versions of the same sound coming from different directions and it's uncomfortable. How much of that do people listen to? Go watch any random movie and tell me where the scenes are that make timbre matching so important. Now tell me where the scenes are where people are whispering, breathing hard, etc and you're not sitting right in front of the TV because it's a living room.

What's more, go listen to someone in real life speak and turn your head to the side. Guess what, you're going to perceive what they're saying differently... a different timbre. Does it bother you? Of course not. We know what something sounds like and we have the tolerance to recognize it even when altered. When you're on the phone... how wrong is the timbre. Yet somehow you always know who you're talking to. Likewise, if Character A is off-screen and character B is on screen and they're having a conversation, you won't notice that charcter A's voice is "wrong", even if they switch places and it's not character B that's off screen! That tolerance is a result of our real life experience.

Are there occasional movies that do have hard pans for effect? Sure there are. THere's also movies with bass content down to 15hz at 115db at the sitting position. If you're budget limited you're never going to get it perfectly right. If you're interested in getting it perfectly right then you need three identical tower speakers capable of 105 db at the seating position, near constant and controlled directivity, a controlled environment, diffusion and absorption at all 4 first reflection points for every single speaker in the room (especially hte mains, of which there are now three), seats situated within 30 degrees of the center, etc. I really doubt the OP is running that kind of dedicated home theater. If he was he wouldn't be using thin budget towers made for squeezing into a living room.

For someone like Kal Rubinson of stereophile or TLS Guy over here, sure you want speakers that get timbre right. They're

1) guys with very discerning and trained ears
2) Listen to multi channel orchestral music

For someone like OP? Not even close, unless he states otherwise. Chances are he bought the VM30s because he liked how his CDs etc sounded on the Polks and now wants to make a home theater out of it. All I'm saying is that he's not going to worry about how his CDs sound on the center channel!

to argue that buying a center channel that will not be close to timbre matched is the right move based on the center not being needed for 2 channel listening is weaksauce for lack of a better phrase. If 2 channel was his primary concern and the basis for the OP decisions, he would have probably bought a 2 channel system. not trying to be inflammatory, just giving my opinion.
Where did I say "don't buy a timbre matched center". I said that in a world of tradeoffs, for a home theater center, vocal clarity and off axis response rule above the concept of timbre match. Having timbre match is always nice. Of course if you've got speakers that get the timbre in the 200hz-5000hz or so region right in the first place it's not even an object of concern as that's where our ears are most sensitive.

Incidentally, was there a chance your brand bias might have actually affected the advise you gave? I.E. do you always advocate non timbre matched centers for any other reason than brand dislike? just curious
Sure there is. If someone came in here asking if he should get the matching center to his bose or sony or technics I would of course say the same thing. The center is the most important channel for movie watching so of course it should be a great one, even if every other speaker is awful. That doesn't mean I go around telling people to avoid polks like the plague. I could care less if he was buying a Polk or a Salk or a what. I was just saying that if he wants the best value for performance he would be

1) Better off going with a center with a woofer-tweetermid-woofer alignment over a mid-tweeter-mid alignment
2) PROBABLY better off going with a more clear brand, based on my own personal experience with Polk.

Between that combination, I gave him a hand full of centers that fit the bill for what I consider good performance. Hell, I own EMP E55tis and an EMP E5Ci.. if it were about brand bias I would be recommending the E5Ci. Except the E5Ci has most of the same limitations as the Polk centers (although it sounds worlds better IN MY OPINION). GO read my last post and tell me where I even mentioned the brand I'd be most inclined to recommend.

I also don't advocate "non timbre-matched centers". I simply advocate "midrange clarity on and off axis". NEver mind the fact that with an horizontal MTM speaker, any time you are off axis, you simply won't be getting ANY timbre match whatsoever anyways because of the very different lobing patterns.

If you don't understand how the driver relationships work then either don't bother commenting, or do ask me to clarify. Go read my post again carefully. Read the part I actually bothered to emphasize, instead of dwelling on any underhanded side note remark I may have made.
 
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ohskigod

Junior Audioholic
Jinj,

I see your point, though note he went with the LSiC because a) it's a dam good center and b) it was the closest he could get to a timbre match for the 2.3's (older speaker, never had a matching center)

Truth be told, I have had m ismatching centers, case in point, had a pair of PolkSDA1's, and my current LSic sounded pretty good with it, but everything just worked so much better when I got the matching LSi15's

I guess my experience says thats just the best way, of course, if your mains of choice do not have a matching center then you gotta try to get the closest. (I had a pair of Polk RTA12's with an RT55 which was doable)

should be known, I got these speakers cheap and used. buying centers without knowing (or at least hearing from sources that they work with other speakers) at full retail just doesnt fit me as the right call. Just my .02

case in point, my father in law once inherited a pair of Bose 501's I had (yeah, I know, I got them dirt cheap and....well.....like I said I gave them away). When he wanted to go the theater route he asked what center to get for them. I said to get new towers, or go with the matching center (name escapes me). as he was unwilling to spend the coin, we got him the matching center and he is happy as a clam. I really think one of my Polk centers would have stuck out like a sore thumb
 
jinjuku

jinjuku

Moderator
Jinj,

I see your point, though note he went with the LSiC because a) it's a dam good center and b) it was the closest he could get to a timbre match for the 2.3's (older speaker, never had a matching center)
I could see how a Klipsch Center would not quite match up...

Like I said it is YMMV. Some people seem happy with stuff not 'quite' matched up.

What I would say is that if you had an HT setup that you initially compromised on due to budget (as an example) that the first real upgrade that I would make is to a killer center and let the timbre matching, for right now, be damned.
 
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