Lossless Audio vs MP3 and Accurate Speakers vs Inaccurate speakers

[Pyrrho]

I'm astonished - astonished - that a test run by a speaker company found their own speakers to be superior to another company's more expensive speakers.

You can bet that if the tests had turned out badly for the house brand, they would keep quiet about it. It is only when it is in their own interests to make such tests public that they are likely to make the results public. This is one reason why disinterested third parties need to be running things.

 

[GranteedEV]

The 'exotics' that most pique my interest are Sound Labs and Magnepans.

 

[Pyrrho]

The 'exotics' that most pique my interest are Sound Labs and Magnepans.

I have never heard Sound Labs speakers, but I do like Magnepan speakers, and my Apogee speakers. With my Apogee Stage speakers in particular, it is easy to set them up wrong, and the sound is also affected by how far one is from them; they are not near field monitors.

But maybe I am fooling myself about how good they are, and I should replace them with Infinity P362 speakers instead.

 

[jonnythan]

You can bet that if the tests had turned out badly for the house brand, they would keep quiet about it. It is only when it is in their own interests to make such tests public that they are likely to make the results public. This is one reason why disinterested third parties need to be running things.

Another easy and tempting way to game it is to do the tests with a dozen very expensive speakers, and only publish the results where the house brand "won."

I understand that this is not uncommon in the pharmacology field. Drug companies fund or perform studies and only publish the ones that produce positive results for the drugs. Negative results generally mean the chemical is quietly shelved, but a few inconclusive studies just get tossed in the trash can if one comes up with a positive result.

Again, I'm not saying anyone, especially Harman, is doing this, but I never trust someone when the produce data to assure me that the product they're trying to sell me is really the best. As you say, independent studies are what we need.

Raise your hand if you think that a pair of P362s would win against an array of $10,000 loudspeakers in independent blind testing.

 

[its phillip]

I certainly think it's possible, considering some of the crap out there that costs $10,000 or more...but it's also very possible for them to lose

 

[MinusTheBear]

Another easy and tempting way to game it is to do the tests with a dozen very expensive speakers, and only publish the results where the house brand "won."

I understand that this is not uncommon in the pharmacology field. Drug companies fund or perform studies and only publish the ones that produce positive results for the drugs. Negative results generally mean the chemical is quietly shelved, but a few inconclusive studies just get tossed in the trash can if one comes up with a positive result.

Again, I'm not saying anyone, especially Harman, is doing this, but I never trust someone when the produce data to assure me that the product they're trying to sell me is really the best. As you say, independent studies are what we need.

Raise your hand if you think that a pair of P362s would win against an array of $10,000 loudspeakers in independent blind testing.

I would say a well designed $10,000 should win over a well designed budget speaker like the P362. If the $10000 speakers follows sound engineering principles there should be a good coorelation between price and quality but it isn't always the case because there are a lot of bad speakers in every price category. There are some real stinkers in the "high end". If you stick within the Harman family though, the Revel Series of speakers should beat the Infinity Primus series in a blind test 100% of the time.

 

[Cruise Missile]

If most people are used to crappy earbuds and clock radios playing highly compressed music, anything is possible.

Flat doesn't impress the iPod crowd, boom and sizzle does.

I'm not judging the speakers involved in the test, I haven't heard any of them. Same goes for the testing methodology, I wasn't there.

In my experience, turning up the subs is how you get non-audiophiles to be seriously impressed. So without some sort of audio experience background data for all the subjects, how can you quantify why they think one speaker sounds better than another?

Hell, look at how creative reviewers have to be to try and convey why they think what they do about an audio product. These guys are professionals, and can't always tell you why they like one speaker better than another in english. I've still never heard "chocolate".

The compressed audio versus hi-rez is a bit easier to understand as it will sound different on any speaker they used in the test.

 

[lsiberian]

my thought is this. You can't go wrong with MLs or Infinities. I've been to enough people's houses to wish they used either instead of Bose, Sony or TV Speakers.

 

[GranteedEV]

Raise your hand if you think that a pair of P362s would win against an array of $10,000 loudspeakers in independent blind testing.

It's possible, if they measure like this $22000 speaker:

or this $24000 speaker

or this $20000 speaker

But not likely, if we're using this $9000 speaker:

or this $4500 speaker

 

[jonnythan]

Why are you using those graphs? All they show is the off-axis deviation from the on-axis response, right? They're not showing what the actual response is.

I don't argue that the P362 probably sounds better than many expensive loudspeakers.

 

[3db]

my thought is this. You can't go wrong with MLs or Infinities. I've been to enough people's houses to wish they used either instead of Bose, Sony or TV Speakers.

I would NOT buy lower end MLs as their price to perfomance is not all that great. I would agree with you on the Infinities..

 

[GranteedEV]

Why are you using those graphs? All they show is the off-axis deviation from the on-axis response, right? They're not showing what the actual response is.

Axial response can be equalized ruler flat with a $200 DCX
Off axis response is what it it is.

 

[Hocky]

I would NOT buy lower end MLs as their price to perfomance is not all that great. I would agree with you on the Infinities..

The new Electromotion ESLs are pretty damn good at the $2k price point.

 

[jonnythan]

Axial response can be equalized ruler flat with a $200 DCX
Off axis response is what it it is.

So with a $200 DCX pretty much any speaker will give you the best performance possible, as long as you sit on axis for both speakers?

 

[Pyrrho]

my thought is this. You can't go wrong with MLs or Infinities. I've been to enough people's houses to wish they used either instead of Bose, Sony or TV Speakers.

I would NOT buy lower end MLs as their price to perfomance is not all that great. I would agree with you on the Infinities..

I don't:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/floorstanding/infinity-classia-c336

 

[GranteedEV]

So with a $200 DCX pretty much any speaker will give you the best performance possible, as long as you sit on axis for both speakers?

except for the fact that like 60% of what you hear is reflected sound, and anything you do to the axial response with an EQ you do to the off axis response???

Why do you think so many ""flat"" measuring speakers sound bad and likewise sound different in different rooms?

 

[jonnythan]

except for the fact that like 60% of what you hear is reflected sound, and anything you do to the axial response with an EQ you do to the off axis response???

Why do you think so many ""flat"" measuring speakers sound bad and likewise sound different in different rooms?

Different decay patterns, different linearity (important when playing something other than a test tone), etc. I'm not an expert but there's more to a speaker than just frequency response.

Another leading question: if you sat in an anechoic chamber with a pair of Polk R15s EQed to be "ruler straight" and then replaced them with a pair of level-matched Revel M22s also EQed to be ruler straight, would they sound identical? Of course not.

 

[GranteedEV]

Different decay patterns, different linearity (important when playing something other than a test tone), etc. I'm not an expert but there's more to a speaker than just frequency response..

If a $10k speaker has problems in its decay pattern and linearity, I don't know how you're expecting it to compete with the Infinity MMD drivers

Of course there's a ton of factors at play. But when I look at the off axis responses above, I know exactly which speakers to cross off my audition list and which speakers to add to it.

The fact is, if it has off axis response like the speakers "graphed" above, it'll have a tough time beating out those "wimpy cheap P363s" plain and simple in a blind test, no matter how nice the drivers are, unless you're driving one way beyond its limitations, which I don't think is generally done in these tests.

And yes, you can expect a less resonant cabinet too. You'd hope, for about 30x the cost.

But what the blind testing this thread is about shows, is that in blind tests, people prefered the accurate measuring speaker.

 

[jonnythan]

The fact is, if it has off axis response like the speakers "graphed" above, it'll have a tough time beating out those "wimpy cheap P363s" plain and simple in a blind test, no matter how nice the drivers are, unless you're driving one way beyond its limitations, which I don't think is generally done in these tests.

And yes, you can expect a less resonant cabinet too. You'd hope, for about 30x the cost.

Why did you put "wimpy cheap P363s" in quotes? I never said that. I never said one negative thing whatsoever about them. I've never even heard them. I never said that any particular speaker is better than them.

Again, just to be absolutely clear: I am not saying that any speaker is better than any other. I am saying that one should not trust a salesman when he produces data that attempts to convince you his wares are better than another salesman's wares at a fraction of the price.

Trust good independent measurements and studies. Don't trust a company's studies when the only ones it ever produces show that its products are the best.

 

[GranteedEV]

Again, just to be absolutely clear: I am not saying that any speaker is better than any other. I am saying that one should not trust a salesman when he produces data that attempts to convince you his wares are better than another salesman's wares at a fraction of the price.

Of course I won't trust "that data", but I'll trust the 3rd party measurements that support the data... where in my post the last two well measuring speakers, were Pioneer and PSBs respectively, not Harman brand speakers at all. All I suggested was that if a speaker measures well off axis, and is voiced flat on axis, it's a lot harder for a speaker to win in a blind test against other such speakers, whereas speakers' measurements are a mess, like the Wilson, B&W, and Klipsch speakers I posted, then in the blind test they won't be favoured.

Where does that show anything suggesting the Manufacturer's speakers always win their tests? All it shows is that the well-measuring speakers beat the less well measuring speakers, like you'd hope they would.

Don't trust a company's studies when the only ones it ever produces show that its products are the best.

It really isn't about showing the P363 were "the best", though - the number of speaker samples used is statistically insignificant. It was just showing that people in a blind test, even teenagers, gravitate towards the speaker the measures better on and off axis. The focus of this study was to show that teenagers don't inherently "prefer" bad sound - even though that's a common perception in the audio world including the mixing community.

That doesn't mean the P363 is the best measuring speaker at its price point even. It's possible, but the point is just that there wasn't the expected preference towards "boom n sizzle" or "MP3"

You're kind of missing that, and too caught up in company A vs company B/C/D.

There's a lot that can be learned from Harman or NRC or even BBC research, without the assumption that Harman or NRC or BBC speakers are subsequently the best.