Looking to upgrade my turntable

[m. zillch]

How about telling us what specifically you are dissatisfied with in the current turntable which prompted you in whole quest to upgrade?

 

[lovinthehd]

How about telling us what specifically you are dissatisfied with in the current turntable which prompted you in whole quest to upgrade?

He did state reasons some posts back....

 

[Mike Up]

True enough, but across the room is insane!

Yes, definitely not confidence inspiring. Years and years ago in 1999, I bought a Yamaha RX-V995 for $1,000 that produced a loud power supply transformer buzz just about 2 months of purchase. It was within the dealer's time frame to upgrade but not replace/return, so instead of sending it in for service, I upgraded to the RX-V2095 Receiver.

Luckily this turntables motor shown it's defect right away instead of finding it later. Besides, this is the reason I went with an Audio Technica Turntable over a Fluance, because of their numerous motor defects. Live and learn. My cheap $120 AT-LP60-USB's motor is dead quiet even with your ear next to it. Looks like Audio Technica had a bad run of motors in the AT-LP70XBT and AT-LP3XBT turntables. Such a shame.

 

[lovinthehd]

Yes, definitely not confidence inspiring. Years and years ago in 1999, I bought a Yamaha RX-V995 for $1,000 that produced a loud power supply transformer buzz just about 2 months of purchase. It was within the dealer's time frame to upgrade but not replace/return, so instead of sending it in for service, I upgraded to the RX-V2095 Receiver.

Luckily this turntables motor shown it's defect right away instead of finding it later. Besides, this is the reason I went with an Audio Technica Turntable over a Fluance, because of their numerous motor defects. Live and learn. My cheap $120 AT-LP60-USB's motor is dead quiet even with your ear next to it. Looks like Audio Technica had a bad run of motors in the AT-LP70XBT and AT-LP3XBT turntables. Such a shame.

I'd suspect it's more something that gets thru today's version of quality control or what's being budgeted for quality control, or whatever happened in this case, but haven't seen a report quite like this one otoh.

 

[Mike Up]

How about telling us what specifically you are dissatisfied with in the current turntable which prompted you in whole quest to upgrade?

Here you go.

 

[TLS Guy]

Ok, I'm going to try one more time with a turntable within my budget.

The $500 Denon DP-300F is on sale for $350, looks quality and has good reviews and comes with a bit lower quality cartridge than the LP3XBT, the Denon clone of the AT91 and it's 2.0g tracking force. This is suppose to be a step above the AT3600L with better highs and lows, and the lower tracking force.

The reason I went with the Audio Technica AT-LP3XBT over the Denon initially was the LP3XBT's better cartridge and $100 lower price.

The Denon at $350, lets me try the AT91 and if I want, upgrade to the AT-VM95c and still be at the same price the AT-LP3XBT is. Hopefully the motor noise will be much lower on the Denon.

I have spent a lot of time on this for you tonight. You are spinning your wheels. You can not improve over what you have with your budget. If you go to $600.00 then it starts to make sense. I can not improve your current set up even with good used equipment.

 

[Mike Up]

I have spent a lot of time on this for you tonight. You are spinning your wheels. You can not improve over what you have with your budget. If you go to $600.00 then it starts to make sense. I can not improve your current set up even with good used equipment.

Hum, I strongly disagree as the AT-LP3XBT sounded much better than the AT-LP60-USB but the motor noise was irritating as well as a bad sign of reliability to come.

This wasn't a subtle difference, but a very significant difference going from the AT-LP60-USB (AT3600L cartridge) to the AT-LP3XBT (At-VM95c cartridge). Clearer more pronounced highs, to clearer, stronger bass, and more articulate midrange.

While I know the Denon DL-85 (AT91) cartridge isn't as good as the AT-VM95c, it is better than the AT3600L. Plus the Denon DL-85 (AT91) can be upgraded with LP Gear Elliptical Stylus DSN-85E if I choose to skip the AT-VM95c/e upgrade down the road.

 

[Mikado463]

Hum, I strongly disagree as the AT-LP3XBT sounded much better than the AT-LP60-USB but the motor noise was irritating as well as a bad sign of reliability to come.

No way !!!, you know why ???? you stated it yourself, the insane audible motor noise !!!

Simply put, that motor noise is all part of the complete TT equation, sonically speaking !!!!

Mark (TLS Guy) is right, you are doing little but spinning your wheels, well at least you identified one thing, a better cartridge does contribute in a positive..........

 

[m. zillch]

. . . some vibration resistant feet so that my SVS subwoofer output doesn't bleed into the stylus with feedback. While I never yet have had the volume up on bass heavy tracks to see this on the LP60-USB, I have on my previous cheaper turntables.

This very common issue of feedback (which even below outright, full-level "howl" level can still muddy the sound and make the bass murky, called "incipient feedback distortion") was effectively conquered in the 1960's, affordably no less, by use of a floating sub-chassis design (at least when well-executed with a floppy, low frequency "bounce") to isolate the working mechanism from the outside world, however except for turntables well out of your price range (for example, Linn LP-12s or some top level Thorens and SME) everyone, um, "forgot" how to affordably make them this way. . . There's always the used market!

 

[lovinthehd]

Hum, I strongly disagree as the AT-LP3XBT sounded much better than the AT-LP60-USB but the motor noise was irritating as well as a bad sign of reliability to come.

This wasn't a subtle difference, but a very significant difference going from the AT-LP60-USB (AT3600L cartridge) to the AT-LP3XBT (At-VM95c cartridge). Clearer more pronounced highs, to clearer, stronger bass, and more articulate midrange.

While I know the Denon DL-85 (AT91) cartridge isn't as good as the AT-VM95c, it is better than the AT3600L. Plus the Denon DL-85 (AT91) can be upgraded with LP Gear Elliptical Stylus DSN-85E if I choose to skip the AT-VM95c/e upgrade down the road.

The LP60 also didn't allow other cartridges, right? I'd still try another AT LP3XBT in any case....

 

[Mike Up]

This common issue of feedback (which even below outright, full level "howl" level can still muddy the sound, called "incipient feedback distortion") was effectively conquered in the 1960's, affordably no less, by use of a floating sub-chassis design (at least when well-executed with a floppy, low frequency "bounce") to isolate the working mechanism from the outside world, however except for turntables well out of your price range (for example, Linn LP-12s or some top level Thorens) everyone, um, "forgot" how to affordably make them this way. . . There's always the used market!

Yes, I rembember my mom's vintage stereo console system having a floating turntable in it. Then again it had to as the speakers were built into the same cabinet holding the turntable.

My long gone Kenwood turntable would get feedback in it from my speakers so I either turned down my music or delt with feedback.

 

[Mike Up]

The LP60 also didn't allow other cartridges, right? I'd still try another AT LP3XBT in any case....

That's right, you can't upgrade the cartridge on the AT-LP60-USB. What I call a disposable turntable. But I guess you can buy stylus and belts pretty easy for it.

Also the Denon turntable comes with a DC "servo" motor while the LP3XBT came with a standard DC motor. You had to go up in the line to get a Servo motor.

Well, I'm divided. I did order another AT-LP3XBT but did order the Denon DP-300F (because it's on sale for $150 off) if I still have motor noise on the AT-LP3BT.

What I found through a lot of research is something that is hidden from the customer. I found after comparing several turntables from Dual, Teac, Denon, and Audio Technica. These turntables that are under $500 or so, are made by a company called Hanpin with designs and part types designated by the Seller. That's why they all look similar. The Denon does have a different body design but it's very similar to the older AT-LP3 right down to the same cartridge but with a Denon design and name. The tone arm assembly is different on the Denon as well. Now taking the platter off of both, the undersides look identical but Denon uses a Servo motor instead with a Wow and flutter of .1 compared to the LP3's standard motor and .25 wow and flutter.

The big difference between the denon DP-300F is that the newer AT-LP3XBT uses a ground wire, has Bluetooth, and a better cartridge. The Denon has a better wow and flutter of .1% compared to LP3XBTs .2% .

After listening to Heart Passion Works, on my LP60-USB, I was underwhelmed after hearing it on the LP3XBT, so I definitely wanted something better sounding. I'm really divided on which to get.

 

[lovinthehd]

That's right, you can't upgrade the cartridge on the AT-LP60-USB. What I call a disposable turntable. But I guess you can buy stylus and belts pretty easy for it.

Also the Denon turntable comes with a DC "servo" motor while the LP3XBT came with a standard DC motor. You had to go up in the line to get a Servo motor.

Well, I'm divided. I did order another AT-LP3XBT but did order the Denon DP-300F (because it's on sale for $150 off) if I still have motor noise on the AT-LP3BT.

What I found through a lot of research is something that is hidden from the customer. I found after comparing several turntables from Dual, Teac, Denon, and Audio Technica. These turntables that are under $500 or so, are made by a company called Hanpin with designs and part types designated by the Seller. That's why they all look similar. The Denon does have a different body design but it's very similar to the older AT-LP3 right down to the same cartridge but with a Denon design and name. The tone arm assembly is different on the Denon as well. Now taking the platter off of both, the undersides look identical but Denon uses a Servo motor instead with a Wow and flutter of .1 compared to the LP3's standard motor and .25 wow and flutter.

The big difference between the denon DP-300F is that the newer AT-LP3XBT uses a ground wire, has Bluetooth, and a better cartridge. The Denon has a better wow and flutter of .1% compared to LP3XBTs .2% .

After listening to Heart Passion Works, on my LP60-USB, I was underwhelmed after hearing it on the LP3XBT, so I definitely wanted something better sounding. I'm really divided on which to get.

Then again AudioTechnica's turntables are based on "cloning" Technics like my SL1200mk2 (had it 40 years now).

 

[TLS Guy]

That's right, you can't upgrade the cartridge on the AT-LP60-USB. What I call a disposable turntable. But I guess you can buy stylus and belts pretty easy for it.

Also the Denon turntable comes with a DC "servo" motor while the LP3XBT came with a standard DC motor. You had to go up in the line to get a Servo motor.

Well, I'm divided. I did order another AT-LP3XBT but did order the Denon DP-300F (because it's on sale for $150 off) if I still have motor noise on the AT-LP3BT.

What I found through a lot of research is something that is hidden from the customer. I found after comparing several turntables from Dual, Teac, Denon, and Audio Technica. These turntables that are under $500 or so, are made by a company called Hanpin with designs and part types designated by the Seller. That's why they all look similar. The Denon does have a different body design but it's very similar to the older AT-LP3 right down to the same cartridge but with a Denon design and name. The tone arm assembly is different on the Denon as well. Now taking the platter off of both, the undersides look identical but Denon uses a Servo motor instead with a Wow and flutter of .1 compared to the LP3's standard motor and .25 wow and flutter.

The big difference between the denon DP-300F is that the newer AT-LP3XBT uses a ground wire, has Bluetooth, and a better cartridge. The Denon has a better wow and flutter of .1% compared to LP3XBTs .2% .

After listening to Heart Passion Works, on my LP60-USB, I was underwhelmed after hearing it on the LP3XBT, so I definitely wanted something better sounding. I'm really divided on which to get.

You can contemplate your navel to eternity, but unless you up your budget, you will be considering lateral purchases. You are divided, as one option is as good as another. Be patient and save a little more money. Unlike receivers etc. turntables can be very long term purchases, so over time they are excellent value.

These turntables are 60 or more years old.

The preamp on the left I bought in 1967. It plays 78s and LPs.

The turntable below, I bought for little money not working and restored it. I fitted it, with an arm and cartridge made to match.

If you are handy a restoration could be an option for you as well.

Turntables are an item that can be a lifetime investment, and so they are not an item to stint on. The other issues is that performance does improve, and usually longevity, as you move up the food chain so to speak. So it is false economy to go cheap.

If you PM Squishman, who has heard these turntables and will confirm what I am saying. He is dumbfounded at how good these turntables sound, and he has played more than a few of his discs here.

 

[lovinthehd]

You can contemplate your navel to eternity, but unless you up your budget, you will be considering lateral purchases. You are divided, as one option is as good as another. Be patient and save a little more money. Unlike receivers etc. turntables can be very long term purchases, so over time they are excellent value.

These turntables are 60 or more years old.

The preamp on the left I bought in 1967. It plays 78s and LPs.

The turntable below, I bought for little money not working and restored it. I fitted it, with an arm and cartridge made to match.

If you are handy a restoration could be an option for you as well.

Turntables are an item that can be a lifetime investment, and so they are not an item to stint on. The other issues is that performance does improve, and usually longevity, as you move up the food chain so to speak. So it is false economy to go cheap.

If you PM Squishman, who has heard these turntables and will confirm what I am saying. He is dumbfounded at how good these turntables sound, and he has played more than a few of his discs here.

LOL you and your old gear. Has little to do with what OP is trying to do. Having a choice in cartridge is a good thing. If Garrard could make a decent rim drive, then anything's possible, eh? Sort of like how they might approach the level of bicycle mechanics

 

[TLS Guy]

LOL you and your old gear. Has little to do with what OP is trying to do. Having a choice in cartridge is a good thing. If Garrard could make a decent rim drive, then anything's possible, eh? Sort of like how they might approach the level of bicycle mechanics

Well they best the vast majority of the turntables made now. They quite rightly command very high prices on the used market.

That Garrard picture of the Garrard 301 with that Decca ffss set up is truly iconic.

 

[lovinthehd]

Well they best the vast majority of the turntables made now. They quite rightly command very high prices on the used market.

That Garrard picture of the Garrard 301 with that Decca ffss set up is truly iconic.

LOL it's okay. Not hard to get better, tho.

ps keep in mind it's just vinyl....

 

[Mike Up]

I'm not going to spend more than $400 on a turntable. I'm a digital guy that likes CDs and FLAC files MUCH better than vinyl.

Why I'm wanting a better turntable is for my CURRENT collection of vinyl that I have that is most worn and used but still sounds GOOD.

After researching everything, I'm going to stick with a conical stylus because they work the best with older worn, scratched, and used records. This is the majority of my records.

I have under 100 albums, which maybe I'll listen to 60 albums. Now at average price of $13/CD, I could replace all my records for $780. Why would I spend any where near that amount to listen to old worn records?? You are right, I won't so $400 is my limit. Otherwise I could get all new digital version that offer better noise, dynamics, frequency response, and everything else.

I'm looking only to get the most out of what I have, while being financially smart about it.

 

[lovinthehd]

I'm not going to spend more than $400 on a turntable. I'm a digital guy that likes CDs and FLAC files MUCH better than vinyl.

Why I'm wanting a better turntable is for my CURRENT collection of vinyl that I have that is most worn and used but still sounds GOOD.

After researching everything, I'm going to stick with a conical stylus because they work the best with older worn, scratched, and used records. This is the majority of my records.

I have under 100 albums, which maybe I'll listen to 60 albums. Now at average price of $13/CD, I could replace all my records for $780. Why would I spend any where near that amount to listen to old worn records?? You are right, I won't so $400 is my limit. Otherwise I could get all new digital version that offer better noise, dynamics, frequency response, and everything else.

I'm looking only to get the most out of what I have, while being financially smart about it.

Check out the used market much? I'm out in the boonies so not a big option for me....

 

[Mike Up]

Check out the used market much? I'm out in the boonies so not a big option for me....

No, I work on electronics and have come across so many things that need more money put into them then they are worth.

Also, in the Chicago area where I live, is a bedbug problem. So I don't want to be bringing those things into my house from used gear and furniture.

About 25 years ago, I was buying used gear but not anymore.

I did cancel the Denon DP-300F turntable as it looked to be just an overpriced Audio Technica AT-LP3 turntable.

So I have another Audio Technica AT-LP3XBT on order. If it has a bad motor as well, I just may buy a new belt and stylus for the AT-LP60-USB and finally be done with all of this hassle.

Thanks everyone for your help. I truly appreciate your comments and suggestions even if they aren't a good fit for me. I do take what you say into consideration even if I don't follow it.

Thanks again!