Looking for some "Punch" in HT

nbk13nw

nbk13nw

Full Audioholic
So I am currently running JBL 590's front L /R, JBL 520C, JBL 580 side surrounds, JBL 530 read surrounds and 4 x 18" sealed subs. Subs are running off a Sanway DSP-6KQ with one per channel. Have great coverage in a 7k cut room with the subs now. Just want more punch.

Been thinking of some flat packs for either 15" or 18". Wanting to keep it around $1k. Unless you all can show me how jumping down the rabbit hole again will pay off.

No size limits but was thinking of running them nearfiled behind the couch.

Your thoughts?

Ps.. running a Yamaha CX-A5200 / MX-A5000 for a 7.x.4 setup with the 4 subs



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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Seriously, I have no life.
Run similar but not sure what you think is going to be gained by change let alone what you've done so far particularly in terms of setup. Seems like you're at a good spot if well setup, if not well setup I'd concentrate on maximizing room/setup for now
 
nbk13nw

nbk13nw

Full Audioholic
I have run the subs nearfiled and the tactile was impressive just missing that kick in the gut feel. Currently the best location for full coverage and flat response is just off the four corners.

Near field does bring more of what I want but due to the size of 4 x 18's behind the couch it is pushing it on access on either side of the couch. I was thinking two ported behind the couch would fit better and provide that same, if bit more, feeling. While still keeping the other four cornered.

I will be running new sweeps again once I get the equipment in the new rack to see what is going on. Previous sweeps showed good results, just wanted to recheck since things will be moved around with the new rack.

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S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
A lot of 'punch' occurs outside of traditional subwoofer bands. A lot of chest thump happens from 80 to 150 Hz. My guess is that your subs are not the problem.

You might try raising the crossover frequency to say 120 Hz. And yes, near-field placement can be a boon here as well.
 
nbk13nw

nbk13nw

Full Audioholic
Thanks Shady. I don't recall seeing and dips in that area but will check again.

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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks Shady. I don't recall seeing and dips in that area but will check again.

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We get a lot of posts like this. Shady is right. There is a huge misconception that all bass comes from the sub. Actually very little comes from the sub. The bass decade reaches to around 500 Hz. I know it is now fashionable to call 200 to 500 Hz lower mid range, but that is semantic nonsense. If you play a speaker with a low pass filter rolling off sharply at 500 Hz, everybody who hears says it is bass, which in actuality it is. In fact the major bass power band is 80 Hz to 500 Hz well above where people cross their subs.

So slam requires superb integration of sub and all speakers. It requires adequate power bandwidth actually throughout the audio range. A big issue is damping. If the damping is not high enough you will not have slam. That means low Q alignments. If all those criteria are met then you have slam. To get what you want is not as easy as you think.

If you look at this lower trace, you will see the type of impulse response required for slam. This is a 2 meter response.



Now you can get two greedy with subs, as if you look at the response at the main listening position, this is what you get.



So you can see the bass was actually properly balanced, as there is in fact now a slight rise in response below 30 Hz. Even at the listening position the impulse response is still well preserved.

So yes, that has slam.

The point is you don't get what you want by adding more and bigger subs. You have to look at total system design and properly integrate all speakers. That gets progressively more complex as you add speakers. That latter response by the way was with all speakers driven except the ceiling speakers. So no aspect of a design can be considered in isolation.
 
nbk13nw

nbk13nw

Full Audioholic
The crossover at 110 or 120 should be an easy, free experiment. :)
So are you suggesting to cross my mains at 110 to 120? The LFE is set to 120 on the prepro from what I recall. Not at home at the moment.

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ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Field Marshall
So are you suggesting to cross my mains at 110 to 120? The LFE is set to 120 on the prepro from what I recall.
That would be one way to try to resolve the issue, which Shady and TLS have correctly identified. For punch, it involves frequencies that extend higher than subs are typically crossed at. Raising the sub crossover (presumably) will buy you more clean dynamic range in the punch zone, at the cost of subs encroaching on localizeable frequencies. A similar approach would be to shelve down higher frequencies, i.e. tune the bsc and bass for the peculiarities of your speakers/room (similarly to how LBL Synthesis rigs get their final voicing in situ, which is also how TLS sets up his rigs...it's not a coincidence).

If the room requires 4 18" subs, perhaps it's too much for your mains to deliver. I kind of doubt that, but you never know. If the lack of punch cannot be resolved by positioning/eq/calibration, maybe it's there you need to improve rather than subs.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Spartan
So are you suggesting to cross my mains at 110 to 120? The LFE is set to 120 on the prepro from what I recall. Not at home at the moment.

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Do you mean LPF of LFE? That’s only for the LFE or .1 encoded channel, and doesn’t effect XO at all.

This is an interesting topic, and I think it’s like asking 10 guys how to build a house. You might get 10 different answers! IME, “punch” and bass hit comes from the 25-80hz range. Think about car audio subs. They’re mostly design to hit and punch, and the drivers usually roll off by 25-30hz, and tuned to hit like a train in that range. Also, the “bass” knob on many AVR’s, and stereo amps is centered at 50hz. Also, IMO punch is directly related to spl, so take that into consideration as well. Personally I would look at ported subs as well. Especially when you consider that from port tuning, say arbitrarily 20hz, up to about 30-40hz it will take four sealed subs to equal the output of a ported sub. You’ve given up a lot of efficiency.
Iirc, @TLSguy has a great design for one of the Dayton 18’s.
Instead of new flat packs for NF, maybe rebuilding the current 18’s as ported will be better in the long run.
 
S

snakeeyes

Audioholic Ninja
So are you suggesting to cross my mains at 110 to 120? The LFE is set to 120 on the prepro from what I recall. Not at home at the moment.

Sent from my SM-G988U using Tapatalk
Yes set mains to small and cross mains to 110 or 120 as an experiment to find mid bass.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Slumlord
That would be one way to try to resolve the issue, which Shady and TLS have correctly identified. For punch, it involves frequencies that extend higher than subs are typically crossed at. Raising the sub crossover (presumably) will buy you more clean dynamic range in the punch zone, at the cost of subs encroaching on localizeable frequencies. A similar approach would be to shelve down higher frequencies, i.e. tune the bsc and bass for the peculiarities of your speakers/room (similarly to how LBL Synthesis rigs get their final voicing in situ, which is also how TLS sets up his rigs...it's not a coincidence).

If the room requires 4 18" subs, perhaps it's too much for your mains to deliver. I kind of doubt that, but you never know. If the lack of punch cannot be resolved by positioning/eq/calibration, maybe it's there you need to improve rather than subs.
Yes, but I published first. Not that is of any concern. Ideas should be disseminated. There is one correction. The implementation of the approach needs to be active. That way the relevant frequencies can be boosted. As pointed out before with an active design you can choose boost or cut, with a passive design only cut.
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Field Marshall
I have to disagree with William here. The goal is not to replicate the sound of a hoopty civic, but to get out of the way of the music to the greatest extent possible. Peaky low bass messes things up, it's unnatural sounding. IMO, of course.
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Spartan
I have to disagree with William here. The goal is not to replicate the sound of a hoopty civic, but to get out of the way of the music to the greatest extent possible. Peaky low bass messes things up, it's unnatural sounding. IMO, of course.
Actually I agree with you. My point wasn’t that his room should sound like a hoopty(thought I was the only one who used that term lol), but rather point out where I felt his “punch” could be addressed. I hate that trunk rattling crap, but my friend owns two car audio shops here, and have experience with that.
As far as I can tell, the OP wants punch for HT more than music. As I mentioned, it’s a function of SPL as well, so if he wants to “feel” more punch, vs hearing a more punchy sound, it will take different things. Punchier sound might be fixed with a boost at 50-60hz. But if he wants to “get punched”, IMO it will likey mean something else.
So I guess it depends? In any case, no. Don’t make it sound like a civic. Lol
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Field Marshall
The implementation of the approach needs to be active. That way the relevant frequencies can be boosted.
Perhaps the latest versions of Audyssey/Dirac/etc. would allow one (average joe who doesn't have an active speaker system) to do this. I really don't know, probably a good question for @PENG. Many here have used measurements and miniDSP for calibration, so active speakers are not absolutely necessary. Most importantly, what can the OP do to solve his problem? If he has kit that can affect a shelf filter at 200 Hz or so, it may make him a happy camper.
 
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NINaudio

NINaudio

Audioholic General
What do you currently use, if any, for DSP on your subs? IME, that punch feeling comes from about 60-120 Hz. If you can adjust the crossover from your mains higher you can certainly try that and see if helps. Only problem then might be some localization of those frequencies and/or chestiness with deep male voices. If you're interested in building something for nearfield use to give you that impact I don't think you'd even need to go as large as a 15" driver for that. Looking into building a mid bass module or two with a good 10 or 12 and that should give you nearfield impact.

 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Samurai
Instead of new flat packs for NF, maybe rebuilding the current 18’s as ported will be better in the long run.
Maybe it won't. It depends on the Qts of his sub drivers. If it is above 0.50, then it won't be possible to get that bass punch as they are especially designed to be in sealed boxes. If they were ported, the tight transient response will be missing and you will be hearing a mushy bass sound which is not what you aim for.
 
S

shadyJ

Speaker of the House
As far as I can tell, the OP wants punch for HT more than music. As I mentioned, it’s a function of SPL as well, so if he wants to “feel” more punch, vs hearing a more punchy sound, it will take different things. Punchier sound might be fixed with a boost at 50-60hz. But if he wants to “get punched”, IMO it will likey mean something else.
So I guess it depends? In any case, no. Don’t make it sound like a civic. Lol
There is research in the tactile sensation of sound. Here is an article about it.
 
ski2xblack

ski2xblack

Audioholic Field Marshall
There is research in the tactile sensation of sound. Here is an article about it.
From linked article:
"One study conducted by the Air Force found the resonant frequency of the eyeball to be 18 Hz. It has been suggested that sound pressures at sufficient levels at the resonant frequency of the eye can cause visual disturbances..."
I experienced this at the home of Cameron Patterson, bizarre and disorienting. (Forum software not allowing the @forumname links on my phone??)
 
William Lemmerhirt

William Lemmerhirt

Audioholic Spartan
There is research in the tactile sensation of sound. Here is an article about it.
I’ve actually read that one before, and took away the same things(but will read it again) as now. As fully admitted, not all test tone had the same volume, the spl meter was inaccurate and most volunteers had already been drinking. I don’t exactly what the last part means to everyone, but I know once I’ve had a few, going to “11” isn’t enough. Lol. In reading the overview, I feel like it goes with my initial chest punch range of 25-80ish. I’ll read the whole thing just to make sure I’m being objective of course.

From the study...

 

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