Looking for proven DIY that is better than Klipsch R-28F

J

JJWalker

Enthusiast
Hello, I am new to this site / forum... I am sorry if I am repeating something that already exists. I have been scouring the internet for some time and I have found nothing. I LOVE home theater and I also love wood working. I am not a fool so I am looking for proven designs for my first tower build. Are there any proven designs you could point me to that would be as good as or better than my Klipsch R-28F towers?

I love these towers but am looking for an excuse to spend more time in the garage and I love the idea of speakers that I have made. So far I have built several HT subs and have built one 2.1 set of computer speakers using full range drivers, no crossovers.

I am a constant buyer on Parts Express and have also viewed a lot of their project pages. But, I am looking for a proven design that will compare with the Klipsch towers. Preferably, this set of speakers will also have plans for accompanying center, surrounds.

Thanks everyone!!!
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I'd look at the offerings at diysoundgroup.com. The Fusion series is nice but look around the Cinema group as well.

ps welcome to the forum and this would have been a better post in our diy subforum, too. happy holidaze!
 
J

JJWalker

Enthusiast
Thank you. I will check it out. I have looked at the website but never the Cinema group.

I love the overnight sensation and the TriTrix builds at PE but these look much different. Again, I love PE but I don't know if these would compare with the Klipsch.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
I'm not particularly a fan of Klipsch speakers so I can't use them as a comparison. A step up in my case would likely be something that compares to some of JBL's flagship models. There is also a lot of subjectivity involved so I don't even know where I would dare to make a suggestion on which kit for someone to choose as a "better than" option.

The Fusion line at diysoundgroup are, IMO, professional grade speakers. The Fusion-12's, have no audible distortion in the safe (or beyond) listening range so how would that compare to the Klipsch? They're also ridiculously powerful.

Usually, when someone is looking for an upgrade, it would have to be from crappy speakers to better ones, otherwise, anything you build is going to at least sound different. I take turns with all my speakers so I don't care which is better, as much as that they're all good.

Of all the speakers I own, I am currently hooked on a pair of desktop sized speakers made with full range drivers in a 2.1 setup that cost about $60 in parts to build. I am betting they might sound as good as, or perhaps better than the Klipsch.
 
J

JJWalker

Enthusiast
Hey Guys, I want to thank you both for responding.

MrBoat, your build looks amazing and I thank you lovinthhd for suggesting it to me. While I do not know if I will attempt a build using the same components I have learned a lot from what I have read in MrBoat's experiences in this build. I am very intrigued by the epoxy used and the overall quality of this DIY.

The problem with the Fusion builds in my situation is what I call the Wife factor lol.

So, you have both made me realize that I should re-phrase my question. I am not looking to build better speakers than my Klipsch... Instead, I am looking to build my own towers, center and surrounds that will not make me disappointed that I no longer have the Klipsch. MrBoat, you were right when saying "usually when someone is looking for an upgrade, it would be from crappy speakers to better ones" but I am looking not to upgrade from crap but to upgrade to a project in which I can be proud of listening to.

When I watch movies the best part of them beyond the visual experience is the experience of my DIY Ultimax sub. This got me wondering whether or not I could build the rest of the speakers and enjoy my system even more?

I want to build my own speakers regardless of the time it takes. So long as I do not spend more than my Klipsch speakers for an inferior product I will be happy. This is why I am looking for proven designs and / or builds as opposed to trying to pretend I know how to design x-overs etc.

Please let me know your thoughts and I appreciate the help.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
Hey Guys, I want to thank you both for responding.

MrBoat, your build looks amazing and I thank you lovinthhd for suggesting it to me. While I do not know if I will attempt a build using the same components I have learned a lot from what I have read in MrBoat's experiences in this build. I am very intrigued by the epoxy used and the overall quality of this DIY.

The problem with the Fusion builds in my situation is what I call the Wife factor lol.

So, you have both made me realize that I should re-phrase my question. I am not looking to build better speakers than my Klipsch... Instead, I am looking to build my own towers, center and surrounds that will not make me disappointed that I no longer have the Klipsch. MrBoat, you were right when saying "usually when someone is looking for an upgrade, it would be from crappy speakers to better ones" but I am looking not to upgrade from crap but to upgrade to a project in which I can be proud of listening to.

When I watch movies the best part of them beyond the visual experience is the experience of my DIY Ultimax sub. This got me wondering whether or not I could build the rest of the speakers and enjoy my system even more?

I want to build my own speakers regardless of the time it takes. So long as I do not spend more than my Klipsch speakers for an inferior product I will be happy. This is why I am looking for proven designs and / or builds as opposed to trying to pretend I know how to design x-overs etc.

Please let me know your thoughts and I appreciate the help.
The DIY, which in many cases is AIY with flat pack kits with crossovers already mapped out, is fine. I can pretty much build anything I am interested in and sometimes just knowing one can is enough. It's been done so much, in fact, that it would be really difficult to arrive at what could really be considered a personal, pinnacle achievement in this field. So, since the folks who do this for a living already have the tools out and the mess made, they can have at it.

Most of the designs talked about on forums are proven and they will all have their fans. But, like any other speaker ever made, there is no substitute for actually hearing them unless you're just happy going by the simulations. So, no matter what we tell you, you are taking a chance. If I were to try a good all around tower design, I'd be tempted to try the "Statements."
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
It sounds like this will be primarily used for HT?

If so, I feel I should warn you.
I have Klipsch RF-82 ii's for my HT and other brands of speakers for music. The reason is that I find the Klipsch make great HT speakers.

All speaker designs involve trade-offs. For the Klipsch, playing music, the con is there is always a bit of effect from the horn that doesn't sound quite right. Careful adjustment of toe-in can get it pretty good, but there is always a slight sense of some sounds (mainly attacks of notes like hard consonants in vocals) being "cast" to you while the softer sounds are farther away. For HT, this is great - impactful on hits (the sub makes the hit solid, but it is high frequencies that give the sound their immediacy), easy speech intelligibility, and hearing the delicate "pin drop" in that suspenseful moment benefit from this effect! The "con" aspect of this gets lost to the excitement Klipsch brings to HT. They also do well with hard Rock and Metal where the music does not require a pristine acoustic reality - the slap note of a bass guitar or plucking of regular guitar strings benefit from this immediacy.

So, IMHO, Klipsch speakers perform "above their pay-grade" as a HT speaker. You have to pay a lot more money to get this effect from speakers that also does acoustic music well. I use a rim shot on a snare as my primary litmus test for speed of attacks and the "Klipsch horn trickery" gains an effect that I have to pay 3 times as much to get similar out of non-horn speakers.

I don't know how much of this is Klipsch and how much is horn!

If you have a chance to listen to some nice speakers at audio stores, you might want to verify that your Klipsch have not "imprinted" too heavily on you such that other speakers don't engage you as well.

But to recapitulate my main point, while there are certainly better (by standard criteria) DIY speakers than your Klipsch, the Klipsch shine particularly bright in a HT setting.

HTH and good luck!
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
So, you have both made me realize that I should re-phrase my question. I am not looking to build better speakers than my Klipsch... Instead, I am looking to build my own towers, center and surrounds that will not make me disappointed that I no longer have the Klipsch. MrBoat, you were right when saying "usually when someone is looking for an upgrade, it would be from crappy speakers to better ones" but I am looking not to upgrade from crap but to upgrade to a project in which I can be proud of listening to.

I want to build my own speakers regardless of the time it takes. So long as I do not spend more than my Klipsch speakers for an inferior product I will be happy. This is why I am looking for proven designs and / or builds as opposed to trying to pretend I know how to design x-overs etc.
I suggest the ER18 MTM DIY Towers.

The original thread had many photos and figures which have now been lost due to photobucket's dropping the ball. If you go to this post, you can download pdf files that contain the complete description of the towers and DIY instructions. It is still worth scrolling through the whole thread as others have built these towers and included photos of their work.

Kits for the design cost roughly the same as buying a pair of R28Fs would cost today. The sound quality, in my opinion, is a significant step up. Meniscus Audio sells kits for the ER18 MTM towers and the ER15 Center speaker.

Those prices include all the drivers and parts as indicated with or without crossover assembly, as indicated. You supply MDF or plywood sheets, finishing, and labor.
 
Swerd

Swerd

Audioholic Warlord
I looked through the ER18 MTM thread for posts with photos. There are several that survive:

Post 152
https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/new-diy-mtm-towers-designed-by-dennis-murphy-and-paul-kittinger.68531/page-8#post-813460

Post 188
https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/new-diy-mtm-towers-designed-by-dennis-murphy-and-paul-kittinger.68531/page-10#post-817635

Post 369
https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/new-diy-mtm-towers-designed-by-dennis-murphy-and-paul-kittinger.68531/page-19#post-1000635

Post 422
https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/new-diy-mtm-towers-designed-by-dennis-murphy-and-paul-kittinger.68531/page-22#post-1123895

Post 447
https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/new-diy-mtm-towers-designed-by-dennis-murphy-and-paul-kittinger.68531/page-23#post-1125207

Posts starting at 455, with many other Posts 459, 461, 469, 478, 501, 502, 528, 550, 586
https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/new-diy-mtm-towers-designed-by-dennis-murphy-and-paul-kittinger.68531/page-23#post-1127987

https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/new-diy-mtm-towers-designed-by-dennis-murphy-and-paul-kittinger.68531/page-28#post-1138573

Post 470
https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/new-diy-mtm-towers-designed-by-dennis-murphy-and-paul-kittinger.68531/page-24#post-1134719

Post 521 (also 526, 570,
https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/new-diy-mtm-towers-designed-by-dennis-murphy-and-paul-kittinger.68531/page-27#post-1137682

And finally, the designer, Dennis Murphy, occasionally chimes in:
Post 304
https://forums.audioholics.com/forums/threads/new-diy-mtm-towers-designed-by-dennis-murphy-and-paul-kittinger.68531/page-16#post-875528

I hope this helps.
 
Last edited:
J

JJWalker

Enthusiast
It sounds like this will be primarily used for HT?

If so, I feel I should warn you.
I have Klipsch RF-82 ii's for my HT and other brands of speakers for music. The reason is that I find the Klipsch make great HT speakers.

All speaker designs involve trade-offs. For the Klipsch, playing music, the con is there is always a bit of effect from the horn that doesn't sound quite right. Careful adjustment of toe-in can get it pretty good, but there is always a slight sense of some sounds (mainly attacks of notes like hard consonants in vocals) being "cast" to you while the softer sounds are farther away. For HT, this is great - impactful on hits (the sub makes the hit solid, but it is high frequencies that give the sound their immediacy), easy speech intelligibility, and hearing the delicate "pin drop" in that suspenseful moment benefit from this effect! The "con" aspect of this gets lost to the excitement Klipsch brings to HT. They also do well with hard Rock and Metal where the music does not require a pristine acoustic reality - the slap note of a bass guitar or plucking of regular guitar strings benefit from this immediacy.

So, IMHO, Klipsch speakers perform "above their pay-grade" as a HT speaker. You have to pay a lot more money to get this effect from speakers that also does acoustic music well. I use a rim shot on a snare as my primary litmus test for speed of attacks and the "Klipsch horn trickery" gains an effect that I have to pay 3 times as much to get similar out of non-horn speakers.

I don't know how much of this is Klipsch and how much is horn!

If you have a chance to listen to some nice speakers at audio stores, you might want to verify that your Klipsch have not "imprinted" too heavily on you such that other speakers don't engage you as well.

But to recapitulate my main point, while there are certainly better (by standard criteria) DIY speakers than your Klipsch, the Klipsch shine particularly bright in a HT setting.

HTH and good luck!
Hey Kurt,

Yes it will be mostly HT but I would like to use them for music on occasion... Honestly this is all stemming from hearing some B and W speakers I could never afford... I soon realized my Klipsch couldn't compare musically to them and this made me think of the improvements I experienced after building my own subs.

JJ
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
If you want B&W beaters I'd suggest some of the fusion/cinema designs at diysoundgroup.com

ps oops revisited ;)
 
J

JJWalker

Enthusiast
Hello Everyone,

I want to thank you all again for the responses.

Swerd,

Thank you for the additional posts and information... I have to say that as soon as I started looking into this build (ER18 MTM) I was very excited!!! These speakers look amazing, the reviews are great and they look like they could be exactly what I have been looking for!

Lovinthehd,

I know you were partially joking sending me back to the diysoundgroup.com but I have to tell you it was worth a second look. Once I pulled the website on a pc I was able to navigate it much better than on my tablet (as previously done). The fusion/cinema builds look impressive and the reviews are VERY good. I am very intrigued by these options but I just wish the drivers themselves were more visually appealing. I know the sound is what matters but I cannot help but think that the drivers remind me of what you would expect to see when pulling a factory driver out of a Ford. Do you have personal experience with these builds? Funny enough I noticed that several people were comparing them to Klipsch and said how much more natural sounding they were.

Right now, I would say that the ER18 MTM is in the lead for my next build but I am also truly considering the fusion/cinema from diy.

So, I have heard that rule of thumb is to have the front three channels all from theain, same drivers, construction etc but I am half tempted to start with the Fusion-8 Alchemy Center and compare it to my Klipsch RP-440C. I will admit, when first hooking up the RP-440C I was a little "shocked" at how harsh the highs were. Even now that I have had it for a while I still have it tuned down quite a bit. I wonder if starting with the Fusion center would blend well enough with the Klipsch towers to give me a good idea of how a complete Fusion build could sound?

Again, thank you All!

JJ
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
In the case of the Fusion-12, I dig the look of the Eminence Delta Pro-12A. Especially the surrounds being a heavily doped cloth instead of foam. At any rate, I made trim rings/grilles to cover the factory-ish surface gaskets but chose a mask style grille instead of cloth so I could actually see the drivers.





But then, I'm a welder so, there's not much refined about me or my possessions anyway. An industrial finish/look kind of fits my style, or, lack of.
 
J

JJWalker

Enthusiast
Mr. Boat,

Those grills are very impressive! I love the way they look! They definitely give the drivers a new look! Well done Sir!

James
 
J

JJWalker

Enthusiast
Hey Everyone,

So I thought I had it dialed down to either the ER18MTM or the DIYSG Alchemy but I have a few more questions if you don't mind. So after a lot of research I realized I was not asking the right questions, I apologize for that...

While I want to build better speakers than my Klipsch or B&Ws, I didn't explain the end goal. So, that said, not only do I want sound that is equal to or greater than big box stuff, but I am also looking for something that has options for a center as well as surrounds.

Does this change any of the suggestions already received or possibly add to the suggestion list?

Thank you again, I truly appreciate the input!

James
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
The Alchemy is reasonably priced enough when considering building a center as well and has a center offering as part of the group, along with a tower option. I almost built the Alchemy as mini-me's to my Tempests just because, and I may yet. These really are potent speakers.

I have another design I am fond of by Bagby, the Continuum, and I would not part with any of these speakers or try and replace them with something from Best Buy.
 

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