Looking for input on which route to go for best return

[nanook_the_eskimo]

Hi,

I am a new member to the forum. I’ve frequented this forum over the last 7 years or so. This is when I started to really become invested in the hobby and lifestyle. Over this time I have had a chance to purchase and try a lot of gear from vintage to modern. Loudspeakers and electronics both.

Currently, I have a few different systems that I have held onto while most everything else has been traded or sold in order to purchase more gear. Funny how that works, isn’t it? Anyway, for loudspeakers, I have an original set of Teledyne Acoustic Research AR9 loudspeakers (from the late 70’s - early 80’s, not the more modern ones that were junk), a pair of Sony SS-TL5 Transmission Line speakers from the early 90’s I believe, some Polk Monitor 7b speakers, and a more modern pair of Polk RTi-10 tower speakers. For my electronics I have a Plinius 8200 mk II that has been updated with the latest parts and tech recommended by Plinius. I also have a 1969 McIntosh MC2105 power amplifier that has been recapped with capacitors directly from McIntosh. Anything that wasn’t available for the amp, I was sent a direct replacement for by McIntosh service center. I also have the matching McIntosh C28 preamplifier that has been serviced and updated. A Yamaha MX-800 power amp.

When i, I use the Plinius integrated to power the AR9’s or Sony TL speakers. I’ve always been able to hear sonic differences between electronics but this amplifier took that to a new level. I could really hear improvements across the entire frequency range. I rotate between the two speakers above because of the sound characteristics that they carry.. both produce very musical bass that is not only heard but really felt. The AR9’s produce more bass at higher spl but the Sonys have better quality of bass. It’s musical, powerful, all while having excellent transients. Both speakers have a nice midrange and presence. The highs are clear and smooth without ever being shrill or harsh. I believe the AR9’s to be one of the best speakers that has been offered to consumers in the history or hifi audio. I’m also aware how far technology has come in the last 50 years. Yes, they produce great sound but I know that improvements could be had. The Sonys check all boxes for me other than being able to hit the lowest register in the bass region.. they’re solid down to 30-35 Hz. The quality of bass that they produce is astounding though. I’m assuming this has to do with the transmission line loading of the woofer.

With these things in mind, I would like to try to design and build a set of speakers for myself that will improve upon what I enjoy about the speakers above. I have decided that I would like to try to design a pair of transmission line speakers. I am aware of the difficulties in design due to the advanced mathematics and lack of accurate modeling software. HornResp seems to be the most popular software amongst the DIY/BLH/Quarter Wave enthusiasts. I have built speakers in the past with some success. I’ve tried my hand at transmission line theory but only by designing and building a few subwoofers using this alignment.

I guess what I would like opinions on, is if going the DIY route would prove to be a viable option? Could I realistically design and build a speaker, using the drivers and parts available today, that would produce better results than the speakers that I currently have? Or should I bite the bullet and spend a few thousand dollars on a manufactured speaker that is already tried and true? DIY appeals to me for the fact that I would also be learning and walking away with good experience that can be used later on future builds. I guess the only way to know is if you have had the opportunity to hear the speakers I currently use. They’re by no means end game speakers, obviously.. but i also feel they’re nothing to turn your nose at.

FWIW, I have installed room treatment in my listening room. I have 4” diy rockwool absorption panels at the first reflection points on the sidewalls and above the listening position on the ceiling. I also have 24”x48”x6” bass traps placed diagonally in the front corners of the room to give an air gap of roughly 14-16” behind the bass trap panels. One 36”x36”x6” panel in the middle of the rear wall behind me and 2 diffusers to the left and right sides of it of about the same size.

I know I’ve written a lot. So, anyone who has taken the time to read this and has any input, I would enjoy hearing what your thoughts are. I guess this wasn’t really the best question or way to execute asking it. It’s my first time trying to ask something of this nature though.. so take it easy on me.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

@TLSguy is our most seasoned speaker builder. He should be able to gloss your eyes over in short order lol.

 

[highfigh]

Hi,

I am a new member to the forum. I’ve frequented this forum over the last 7 years or so. This is when I started to really become invested in the hobby and lifestyle. Over this time I have had a chance to purchase and try a lot of gear from vintage to modern. Loudspeakers and electronics both.

Currently, I have a few different systems that I have held onto while most everything else has been traded or sold in order to purchase more gear. Funny how that works, isn’t it? Anyway, for loudspeakers, I have an original set of Teledyne Acoustic Research AR9 loudspeakers (from the late 70’s - early 80’s, not the more modern ones that were junk), a pair of Sony SS-TL5 Transmission Line speakers from the early 90’s I believe, some Polk Monitor 7b speakers, and a more modern pair of Polk RTi-10 tower speakers. For my electronics I have a Plinius 8200 mk II that has been updated with the latest parts and tech recommended by Plinius. I also have a 1969 McIntosh MC2105 power amplifier that has been recapped with capacitors directly from McIntosh. Anything that wasn’t available for the amp, I was sent a direct replacement for by McIntosh service center. I also have the matching McIntosh C28 preamplifier that has been serviced and updated. A Yamaha MX-800 power amp.

When i, I use the Plinius integrated to power the AR9’s or Sony TL speakers. I’ve always been able to hear sonic differences between electronics but this amplifier took that to a new level. I could really hear improvements across the entire frequency range. I rotate between the two speakers above because of the sound characteristics that they carry.. both produce very musical bass that is not only heard but really felt. The AR9’s produce more bass at higher spl but the Sonys have better quality of bass. It’s musical, powerful, all while having excellent transients. Both speakers have a nice midrange and presence. The highs are clear and smooth without ever being shrill or harsh. I believe the AR9’s to be one of the best speakers that has been offered to consumers in the history or hifi audio. I’m also aware how far technology has come in the last 50 years. Yes, they produce great sound but I know that improvements could be had. The Sonys check all boxes for me other than being able to hit the lowest register in the bass region.. they’re solid down to 30-35 Hz. The quality of bass that they produce is astounding though. I’m assuming this has to do with the transmission line loading of the woofer.

With these things in mind, I would like to try to design and build a set of speakers for myself that will improve upon what I enjoy about the speakers above. I have decided that I would like to try to design a pair of transmission line speakers. I am aware of the difficulties in design due to the advanced mathematics and lack of accurate modeling software. HornResp seems to be the most popular software amongst the DIY/BLH/Quarter Wave enthusiasts. I have built speakers in the past with some success. I’ve tried my hand at transmission line theory but only by designing and building a few subwoofers using this alignment.

I guess what I would like opinions on, is if going the DIY route would prove to be a viable option? Could I realistically design and build a speaker, using the drivers and parts available today, that would produce better results than the speakers that I currently have? Or should I bite the bullet and spend a few thousand dollars on a manufactured speaker that is already tried and true? DIY appeals to me for the fact that I would also be learning and walking away with good experience that can be used later on future builds. I guess the only way to know is if you have had the opportunity to hear the speakers I currently use. They’re by no means end game speakers, obviously.. but i also feel they’re nothing to turn your nose at.

FWIW, I have installed room treatment in my listening room. I have 4” diy rockwool absorption panels at the first reflection points on the sidewalls and above the listening position on the ceiling. I also have 24”x48”x6” bass traps placed diagonally in the front corners of the room to give an air gap of roughly 14-16” behind the bass trap panels. One 36”x36”x6” panel in the middle of the rear wall behind me and 2 diffusers to the left and right sides of it of about the same size.

I know I’ve written a lot. So, anyone who has taken the time to read this and has any input, I would enjoy hearing what your thoughts are. I guess this wasn’t really the best question or way to execute asking it. It’s my first time trying to ask something of this nature though.. so take it easy on me.

How did you determine the need for the acoustical treatments? The main methods I have seen amount to 'spray & pray', choosing to make a room far more 'dead' than needed. The orientation of the speakers WRT the room's dimensions can very well make a bad room work or a good room bad but deadening everything isn't very pleasing. Too much absorption can cause problems that could/should have been left alone.

Measurement helps a lot- start with no treatments, then add in specific places if you think it's necessary, watching the changes in the response. If it goes in a bad direction, start over and find/think about where the problems exist, but think about this in terms of the WHOLE room, system, use (typical SPL/frequency emphasis, etc), hearing deficiencies and budget. While it's said that a flat/smooth frequency response is best, anyone whose hearing has been damaged won't like that. OTOH, if the household has someone with damage and the rest don't, consensus will be difficult to achieve.

 

[ski2xblack]

For best return (value proposition), diy is the clear winner. Is it possible to surpass what you currently have? Dunno 'bout that. The AR9 were an engineering tour de force in their time, with performance that still holds up today, assuming they're in proper working order. But improve on the others you have? Definite possibility.

I support diy, just realize it requires considerable baseline knowledge to avoid doing it wrong. Without that, you're better off with a proven kit.

As mentioned, @TLS Guy is our resident transmission line design expert. If he's gracious enough to assist you, he won't steer you wrong. His sensibilities veer hard to low Q bass (a la your AR9, and presumably the Sonys).

Oh, google up Martin J King's modeling software (more about quarter wave mass loaded TL cabs). TLS Guy also has TL modeling software, but I don't recall what it is specifically.

 

[MrBoat]

I can't imagine 30-35hz not being enough for music, especially if there is any beneficial room gain at work in your space. Sounds to me that exploring properly tuned subwoofage is in order. While you mention having built subwoofers, I didn't see it highlighted much in your description, is why I say.

Once I got my subs right, a lot of different types/grades of speakers work in my room and now the problem is that too many speakers I own sound good so now I end up using most of them in rotation. It was always the different sub-bass (from about 65hz down, in my case) characteristics that became apparent between different speakers when trying to play them full range.

Now I do enjoy listening to some speakers full range sometimes, but it's typically in the immediate near field. Even with that being my most practiced way of listening, I still prefer subs involved, albeit none too wild. But mostly, full-range speaker usage is just a convenience thing for some other commando type listening situations I get into sometimes.

I'm not exactly a fan of acoustic treatments for a music system, or at least I never needed it in the types of dwellings I have inhabited. I prefer using ample furnishing and have found cozy rooms to sound better than what otherwise amounts to an often, overly-engineered, acoustic lab of sorts.

Of the 12 pairs of speakers I have now, only 5 pair are store bought, and I recently completely rebuilt/improved the cabinets on a pair of those.

ETA: Of all the different amps I own, from A - D, None really sound that audibly different. Even the MOSFET types aren't really noticeably different beyond say, 5 minutes in, and just about everything else can be evened out with basic tone controls, otherwise.

 

[highfigh]

For best return (value proposition), diy is the clear winner. Is it possible to surpass what you currently have? Dunno 'bout that.

I support diy, just realize it requires considerable baseline knowledge to avoid doing it wrong. Without that, you're better off

If you mean DIY is the clear winner WRT doing the work and sourcing the materials, maybe but not for doing the math, measurements and understanding what/how much treatment is needed. Add people to the room and all of this goes out the window because every person absorbs sound. Same goes when opening the curtains/drapes, shades, blinds, doors etc.

 

[ski2xblack]

@highfigh I was responding specifically to the OP's question about designing speakers.

With these things in mind, I would like to try to design and build a set of speakers for myself that will improve upon what I enjoy about the speakers above..Could I realistically design and build a speaker, using the drivers and parts available today, that would produce better results than the speakers that I currently have?

 

[highfigh]

@highfigh I was responding specifically to the OP's question about designing speakers.

Ahhh, although there's no way a consumer can do the level of testing available to manufacturers unless they have great connections and very deep pockets.

Still, excellent results can be had going DIY.

 

[Eppie]

There are a couple of paths you can take with DIY. One is to choose the drivers yourself and then design the cabinets and crossovers. Cabinet design is usually dictated by the woofer or woofer and mid but there is software out there for that. As mentioned TLS Guy has the software for TL designs and he has been given permission to distribute that software for free.

The challenge becomes matching the right drivers together to get the proper crossover points and then designing a proper crossover. The really good crossovers come from commercial software but the DIY community can help. Tweeter choice is often a personal preference as to what kind of dispersion pattern you want to achieve as domes and ribbons, for example, behave differently.

That's why a lot o people will take path #2 and look for DIY plans that appeal to them. Lots of designs out there where people have already done the math and tested the design. There are also commercial kits that include the drivers and crossovers and some offer flat packs or raw cabinets for those without the woodworking skills.

If you really want to design your own, you should probably get the Loudspeaker Design Cookbook and Floyd Tool's book Sound Reproduction to understand the science. There are a number of build threads in these forums with some nice results, and forum member Swerd wrote a nice little outline in Practical Outline of DIY Speaker Design.

 

[ski2xblack]

Ahhh, although there's no way a consumer can do the level of testing available to manufacturers unless they have great connections and very deep pockets.

Still, excellent results can be had going DIY.

True, the OP cannot summon the collective brain power and experience that Teledyne did for the AR9 in 1978.

But he does have access to fancy modeling software they didn't have (TLS' is free, and the right choice if he wants a TL design), inexpensive measuring kit (Omnimic or REW, DATS), a plethora of modern drivers they didn't have, and updated resources like Toole's and Dickason's books, among others. He has the option of good, fairly inexpensive, feature laden active crossovers (miniDSP, lots of pro-audio options), should he go the active route. The greatest expense with all that would be the time it takes for him to gain the requisite knowledge and competency with the tools. It really depends on how far down the rabbit hole he's willing to go.

 

[TLS Guy]

Hi,

I am a new member to the forum. I’ve frequented this forum over the last 7 years or so. This is when I started to really become invested in the hobby and lifestyle. Over this time I have had a chance to purchase and try a lot of gear from vintage to modern. Loudspeakers and electronics both.

Currently, I have a few different systems that I have held onto while most everything else has been traded or sold in order to purchase more gear. Funny how that works, isn’t it? Anyway, for loudspeakers, I have an original set of Teledyne Acoustic Research AR9 loudspeakers (from the late 70’s - early 80’s, not the more modern ones that were junk), a pair of Sony SS-TL5 Transmission Line speakers from the early 90’s I believe, some Polk Monitor 7b speakers, and a more modern pair of Polk RTi-10 tower speakers. For my electronics I have a Plinius 8200 mk II that has been updated with the latest parts and tech recommended by Plinius. I also have a 1969 McIntosh MC2105 power amplifier that has been recapped with capacitors directly from McIntosh. Anything that wasn’t available for the amp, I was sent a direct replacement for by McIntosh service center. I also have the matching McIntosh C28 preamplifier that has been serviced and updated. A Yamaha MX-800 power amp.

When i, I use the Plinius integrated to power the AR9’s or Sony TL speakers. I’ve always been able to hear sonic differences between electronics but this amplifier took that to a new level. I could really hear improvements across the entire frequency range. I rotate between the two speakers above because of the sound characteristics that they carry.. both produce very musical bass that is not only heard but really felt. The AR9’s produce more bass at higher spl but the Sonys have better quality of bass. It’s musical, powerful, all while having excellent transients. Both speakers have a nice midrange and presence. The highs are clear and smooth without ever being shrill or harsh. I believe the AR9’s to be one of the best speakers that has been offered to consumers in the history or hifi audio. I’m also aware how far technology has come in the last 50 years. Yes, they produce great sound but I know that improvements could be had. The Sonys check all boxes for me other than being able to hit the lowest register in the bass region.. they’re solid down to 30-35 Hz. The quality of bass that they produce is astounding though. I’m assuming this has to do with the transmission line loading of the woofer.

With these things in mind, I would like to try to design and build a set of speakers for myself that will improve upon what I enjoy about the speakers above. I have decided that I would like to try to design a pair of transmission line speakers. I am aware of the difficulties in design due to the advanced mathematics and lack of accurate modeling software. HornResp seems to be the most popular software amongst the DIY/BLH/Quarter Wave enthusiasts. I have built speakers in the past with some success. I’ve tried my hand at transmission line theory but only by designing and building a few subwoofers using this alignment.

I guess what I would like opinions on, is if going the DIY route would prove to be a viable option? Could I realistically design and build a speaker, using the drivers and parts available today, that would produce better results than the speakers that I currently have? Or should I bite the bullet and spend a few thousand dollars on a manufactured speaker that is already tried and true? DIY appeals to me for the fact that I would also be learning and walking away with good experience that can be used later on future builds. I guess the only way to know is if you have had the opportunity to hear the speakers I currently use. They’re by no means end game speakers, obviously.. but i also feel they’re nothing to turn your nose at.

FWIW, I have installed room treatment in my listening room. I have 4” diy rockwool absorption panels at the first reflection points on the sidewalls and above the listening position on the ceiling. I also have 24”x48”x6” bass traps placed diagonally in the front corners of the room to give an air gap of roughly 14-16” behind the bass trap panels. One 36”x36”x6” panel in the middle of the rear wall behind me and 2 diffusers to the left and right sides of it of about the same size.

I know I’ve written a lot. So, anyone who has taken the time to read this and has any input, I would enjoy hearing what your thoughts are. I guess this wasn’t really the best question or way to execute asking it. It’s my first time trying to ask something of this nature though.. so take it easy on me.

The best TL model, is by George Augspurger who published is model in the AES Journal in 2000.

George Augspurger is one of the most celebrated individuals in the history of Audio. He is now well into his nineties.

He trusted me with the privilege of making a downloadable version of his build model available to all for free.

I am currently in the UK, visiting family and friends, but will be returning to the US in two days.