Looking for bookshelf speakers for music and HT - budget $5000

[MikefromNC]

jliedeka - that's just the system i am considering

thanks jliedeka -- that's the exact system i am considering.

i need to go to the local paradigm dealer and listen to the s1's.

thanks for your help..

 

[3db]

thanks jliedeka -- that's the exact system i am considering.

i need to go to the local paradigm dealer and listen to the s1's.

thanks for your help..

If you are planning on listening to the S1, checkout PSB's Platinuma M1s or their next line down Synchrony B1. The M1s are direct competiton to Paradigm's M1

 

[Stormwulf]

Mike,
Not sure if you have thought about this or not, but going with "Bookshelf" speakers will require stands in order to get the potenial of sound you will be spending the money for. Stands require floorspace, and is very hard to hide wiring, also stands inqur additional cost. The floorspace for stands is roughly equal to that of the floorspace of floorstanders. Just a thought.

As your user name suggests, if you are in N.C., and are near the Raleigh area, there are many places to audition speakers.


I had posted this in your other thread before seeing this one. I assume you will be using this one now.

 

[MikefromNC]

Thanks Mr Wulf

I posted a reply to both.

I will need to consider that.
My wife didn't want large speakers - so the bookshelf speakers were a compromise to not take over the room.

THanks for your help.

I need to run floorstading speakers by her.

 

[Spkr_Bldr]

Titanium and magnesium drivers are stronger and lighter than pulp drivers and because of their light weight can respond quicker to the signal applied to them.
The speakers I have (JBL Performance Series) have all Ti drivers and they're very fast and detailed, giving an open and huge soundstage.

When you talk speakers and the term 'fast' is used, the only way to emperically measure 'fastness' is with energy storage measurements. I typically us a burst decay measurement. And yes, the Seas Mag cone woofers are fast. The cone material is a major contributor to that, but of equal importance is the motor on the drivers. The end result is that the Seas Mag cones are leaders in the energy storage department. Another aspect of speed can be applied to cabinet tuning and things like group delay, but that's more when talking about sub 100hz.

And relative to the woofers, honestly all tweeters are 'fast'. Some can be better than others in the terms described above, but still orders of magnitude less than woofers.

Just wanted to try and explain a bit about what designers mean when they call a speaker fast.

 

[Spkr_Bldr]

Hey MikefromNYC, I don't see it in this thread, but what kind of sound are you looking for? Do you have enough experience with the subtleties to explain in words what type of sound you enjoy?

As a designer I think that's THE most important thing when marketing a speaker if you want your customers to be happy, put a lot of effort into describing the sound from a particular design, and what's it's strengths and weaknesses are. Sometimes the customer isn't going to know exactly what they want, but if you do there's a much better chance that of making a purchase that you'll be happy with for a long time.

 

[DD66000]

When you talk speakers and the term 'fast' is used, the only way to emperically measure 'fastness' is with energy storage measurements. I typically us a burst decay measurement. And yes, the Seas Mag cone woofers are fast. The cone material is a major contributor to that, but of equal importance is the motor on the drivers. The end result is that the Seas Mag cones are leaders in the energy storage department. Another aspect of speed can be applied to cabinet tuning and things like group delay, but that's more when talking about sub 100hz.

And relative to the woofers, honestly all tweeters are 'fast'. Some can be better than others in the terms described above, but still orders of magnitude less than woofers.

Just wanted to try and explain a bit about what designers mean when they call a speaker fast.

Its not just tweeters, in the case of JBL's Performance Series speakers, all 3 transducers are Ti, so the entire system is fast and airy, detailed.
And yes, its more than just the transducers, its the entire system.

 

[Spkr_Bldr]

Its not just tweeters, in the case of JBL's Performance Series speakers, all 3 transducers are Ti, so the entire system is fast and airy, detailed.
And yes, its more than just the transducers, its the entire system.

I'm not going to say that the particular speakers and drivers you speak of are fast or not, meaning that they display high acceleration factor and little energy storage. But cone material alone is no guarantee of anything. Titanium (or aluminum, magnesium, etc) cones are not lighter than typical paper/pulp cones. Of course they're lighter to achieve a certain stiffness, but they're generally not lighter. Dig through specs of drivers that list weight of cones if you don't believe me.

I'm only stating that as fact, not dismissive of your observations.

But what those type cones can do - again no guarantee - but the cone itself can potentially act more like a piston, instead of a flexing moving object. And assuming the motor attached to said cone is up to the task, the end result can be very little energy storage through it's useful band. That's what makes a speaker 'fast'.

Tweeters however, different materials are more for taste than anything. Even most silk dome tweeters show very very little energy storage, and have tiny moving mass. That's why I say when you're trying to define fast, the tweeter plays little part in that - they're all fast.

 

[3db]

I posted a reply to both.

I will need to consider that.
My wife didn't want large speakers - so the bookshelf speakers were a compromise to not take over the room.

THanks for your help.

I need to run floorstading speakers by her.

Here is a compariosn between 2 PSB speaker models, the Plat M2 and the Synchonys B2

http://www.goodsound.com/equipment/psb_synchrony_two_b.htm


Other reviews
http://www.hometheatermag.com/floorloudspeakers/1207psb/


Paradigm S2 vs PSB Platinum M2 ..
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/psb_platinum_m2.htm


Platinum M2
http://www.ultimateavmag.com/speakersystems/204psb/
http://www.audio-ideas.com/reviews/loudspeakers/psb-platinum-m2.html

 

[MikefromNC]

What am I looking for in a speaker

Ryan,

Great question about what I am looking for in a speaker.
I cannot put that into words - but I can try.

I want the speakers to provide accurate sound.
I should be able to close my eyes and think the music is being played live.
Something like that.


I need to hear some speakers in person.

The only decent sounding speakers I have heard was a 5.1 KEF system at Circuit City.
The wife liked the egg-shaped small speakers - and I thought they sounded pretty good.
That peaked my interest and I have been looking into it ever since.

 

[mazersteven]

I want the speakers to provide accurate sound.
I should be able to close my eyes and think the music is being played live.
Something like that.

Mackie HR 824
http://www.mackie.com/products/hr824/specs.html

Look on E-bay or Audiogon for a pair of these. They are just what you described.

These are the new series of 824

HR824mk2
http://www.mackie.com/products/hrmk2series/

http://www.zzounds.com/item--MACHR824MKII

 

[Spkr_Bldr]

Ryan,

Great question about what I am looking for in a speaker.
I cannot put that into words - but I can try.

I want the speakers to provide accurate sound.
I should be able to close my eyes and think the music is being played live.
Something like that.

I know what you're saying, but what you describe is more of function of how the speaker images in a room. The ability for a speaker to disappear and leave nothing but an illusion of space ... that illusion where the vocals are centered in front of you and behind the plane of the speakers, with all the other instruments scattered around from left to right, and front to back.

Imaging is very room dependant. The keys to getting a deep/wide and firm stage is having the speakers out from the rear walls at least 3 feet (more if possible), and at least a few feet from sides. Also you want a somewhat symetrical room layout. For treatments, the most important parts are plenty of damping on the rear wall behind the speakers - a bunch of heavy curtains are ideal. And treatments at the first reflection points.

I'm just laying that out as a pre-requisite to proper imaging, so assuming you have that covered, let's talk about the speakers more.

What sort of music do you most want to sound realistic and live? Jazz, amplified rock, acoustic, orchestral? And is what you listen too typically recorded well?

Accurate is a subjective term, to define it you'd have to talk to the recording engineer for each separate recording. If you ask somebody on the forum what accurate means in a speaker, they'll probably tell you a flat FR curve, but that tells you very little - two speakers can measure nearly identically on-axis and sound incredibly different. For this I'm interested in what sound you're looking for. To break it down there are:

Musical - speakers that have a warm soothing character, that never sound harsh even on bad recordings, but might lack the ability to wring out every last detail in the reording

Analytical - speakers that have a more sterile presentation, more crisp and defined notes. Speakers that make you hear things in recording you've never heard before, but can be painful on bad recordings. These are the speakers that can wring out all the details in the recording, good or bad

So which camp would you see yourself in? Or somewhere in the middle?

 

[avaserfi]

When you talk speakers and the term 'fast' is used, the only way to emperically measure 'fastness' is with energy storage measurements. I typically us a burst decay measurement. And yes, the Seas Mag cone woofers are fast. The cone material is a major contributor to that, but of equal importance is the motor on the drivers. The end result is that the Seas Mag cones are leaders in the energy storage department. Another aspect of speed can be applied to cabinet tuning and things like group delay, but that's more when talking about sub 100hz.

And relative to the woofers, honestly all tweeters are 'fast'. Some can be better than others in the terms described above, but still orders of magnitude less than woofers.

Just wanted to try and explain a bit about what designers mean when they call a speaker fast.

Speed as it is often refered to by a listeners/designers is an often misunderstood phenomenon. Many seem to think it is based off of enclosure design while others believe it is based off of the driver itself. Unsurprisingly, perceived speed is based off of the system as a whole and can be quantified in a relatively simple fashion: via careful analysis of frequency response of a loudspeaker as well as impulse response.

With regard to driver speed based on frequency of course higher frequency drivers are 'faster' physics dictate this: look at relative wavelength. Take a common misconception of sealed versus ported subwoofers [these systems are what produce the physically slowest wavelengths of all drivers] and their relative speed. Often times, it seems, many believe that sealed subwoofers are faster due to an intrinsic quality of a sealed system. This is not the case, rather, this perceived 'tightness' is related to the higher octave roll off coupled as compared to a ported subwoofers extended bass shelf.

Imaging is very room dependant. The keys to getting a deep/wide and firm stage is having the speakers out from the rear walls at least 3 feet (more if possible), and at least a few feet from sides. Also you want a somewhat symetrical room layout. For treatments, the most important parts are plenty of damping on the rear wall behind the speakers - a bunch of heavy curtains are ideal. And treatments at the first reflection points.

There are three primary factors correlated with perceived high quality imaging, in order of importance:

Room interaction - It has been shown through countless perceptual studies that off-axis response with similar magnitude to the axial response increases listening enjoyment in stereophonic situations. This was found to be in part due to increase realism caused by superior imaging. There are however some exemptions to these findings. Any speaker with designed to have off axis dispersion will have terrible imaging if placed within one foot of boundaries in a highly reverberant room.

Symmetry of response - this refers to the frequency and phase of the loudspeakers and effects the perception of being in the centered. Symmetry of speaker placement and listener position do play a part in this.

Treble response - Referring to a typical two channel system a slight boost in treble (3dB around 6kHz) will yield perceived "tighter" imaging with a smaller sweet spot while the same cut will yield wider, but more "loose" imaging.

As far as acoustic treatments go they are a must for optimal sound quality to be achieved, but they are, in certain ways highly dependant on the loudspeaker in question as well as the application e.g., omnipolar speakers require grossly different treatments [and placement] as compared to typical monopolar systems.

With regard to treating of first reflections it has been shown through credible perceptual research that if a loudspeaker has low resonances and off axis characteristics that closely match the axial response first reflections are best left untreated presuming the first reflection will arrive to the listener within a certain time frame (approximately 4-6 milliseconds). These reflections have been shown to increase listener enjoyment and preference along side increasing audibility of timbral resonance within instruments allowing for a more realistic listening experience.

 

[Spkr_Bldr]

^^^ Nothing in there that I disagree with Andrew.