Looking for advice - replacing HK AVR 7000

[PearlcorderS701]

hahaha yes i do, i slowly upgrade things as i can and the room where its placed is small enough it wont make a big difference since the sitting area is only 5' from it, i usually upgrade one thing a year because i am on a budget.

Yeah -- you GOTTA upgrade that display!!

 

[yepimonfire]

all in good time.

 

[PearlcorderS701]

all in good time.

No...NOW!! IT MUST BE BIGGER THAN 19 INCHES!!

BTW, I see you're from Massachusetts...are you a Patriots fan?

 

[yepimonfire]

i dont watch much football

 

[PearlcorderS701]

OK. Only asking because I'm a huge fan of their old team...back when they actually wore the coolest uniforms in the NFL, and had the most awesome mascot and logo. All my team stuff I buy is all throwback vintage Pats...

 

[SJesMe]

Thanks again, to all, for your time and great advice. This gal is doing her darnedest to quicken up her learning curve because being without anything at all is murder!

As much as I really like Codifus's solution to my problem, I'm obviously looking for something that does not (yet) exist. After scotch-taping my head back together (it asploded with all that technical detail! ), I had to come back to the fact that my beloved AVR7000 was, in fact, a 5.1. I've got all this angst over the concept of sound deterioration/power loss via an AVR when I sorta forgot that I was delighted with what I had! Thus, there MUST be another AVR out there that will deliver on par. Right?

Per Codifus:

These discussions have made me realize something else: the consumer audio manufacturers are employing this divide and conquer approach so as to maximize their profit margins. This is another part of the reason you have to compromise. There's another thread about the HK980 and the HK3490.

I read that thread as well and I totally agree. While "sound" is completely subjective, I think there remains a hardcore purist group (of which I happily admit being a part) which is stubbornly old school when it comes to what music "should" sound like. I long for a return to the day when I could plug a turntable and a pair of JBL L-100s into the back of my Marantz 2230 and be happy for two decades, rather than needing a Ph.D. in rocket science just to get hooked up, only to have to tear it all down 3 years later because the technology is obsolete. It's the same with computers. And people wonder why it takes so much more $$ to simply "get by" these days. Bleh.

But I digress. I'm still considering the HK3490 and the TX8555, but I'd like to hear some recommendations on a decent AVR (preferably 5.1) if possible. Something, as pointed out by Pearlcorder, that is NOT overrated. I'm surprised no one has brought up Denon yet ... any reason for that? I thought they were well regarded?

I'm short on time right now. But, again, my thanks to all who are contributing their wisdom. I'll be back.

 

[SJesMe]

OK. Only asking because I'm a huge fan of their old team...back when they actually wore the coolest uniforms in the NFL, and had the most awesome mascot and logo. All my team stuff I buy is all throwback vintage Pats...

Go Steelers!

 

[PENG]

Reason is the Onkyo uses Series A/B speaker switching and the HK uses Parallel A/B speaker switching..
In a Series configuration the amplifier's output power decreases as the load impedance increases, whereas in a Parallel configuration the output power increases as the load impedance decreases..

Just my $0.01..

Okay, I think I should take the time to explain something to you as I do not want others to be missing some key information.

Fist of all, you are talking about the Onkyo TX-SR805 (use for 2 channel) vs the HK 3490 right? Please refer to Jeff's post#11. Secondly I have no idea what you meant by A/B switching but I will take an educated guess of what you meant. The HK allows you to connect speaker 1 and speaker 2 and you can select (switch) speaker 1 only, 2 only, or both.

If you parallel two pair of speakers to the 3490 you should stick with 8 ohm speakers. The receiver will then see them as 4 ohm and could output up to 150W per channel when you select both speaker 1 & 2 to be on. I know you already know the basic theories behind series and parallel circuits.

The Onkyo 805 does not seem to have two sets of front speaker terminals. So if you want to compare the parallel configuration with the 3490's speaker 1 & 2 both on simultaneously scenario you would have to connect two pair of speakers to the front L/R speaker terminals. In that case you are supposed to stick with 8 ohm (nominal) speakers. In that case the Onkyo 805 will give you much more power than the 3490.

Now let's look at some numbers:

HK3490 - 150WPC at 4 ohms, <0.2% THD according to HK specs.

Onkyo TX-SR805 - 327.6 at 4 ohms, 0.1% THD according to lab measurements.

In terms of power output, the 3490 is not even in the same league.

Here is one of the two reviews I read that included lab test results:
http://www.hometheatermag.com/compactspeakers/208bwonk/index5.html

When you talked about Onkyo's series vs HK's parallel connections, you may be confused with the 'bridging connection' feature that the Onkyo also offers. It allows you to connect the front channel in series with the surround back channels (if you only use the AVR for 5.1 or less). In this case you can get almost double the power using just 8 ohm speakers.

So let me be clear, with the Onkyo I see 3 viable speaker connections for two channel applications.

a) Connect two pairs of 8 ohm speakers to each of the front L & R channel binding posts. You cannot switch, as the 805 does not offer a selector; and it offers only one set of binding posts for each of the front left and right channels.

b) Connect one pair of 4 ohm speaker to each of the front L & R channel binding posts.

c) Bridge the front L/R to the surr B L/R, that is, in series and then connect one pair of 8 ohm speaker to each of the L & R channels.

In any of the above 3 scenarios you will get more power output than you would get from the HK3490. Option c), the bridging (series) scenario will get you almost double the 805's rated output power.

See page 24 of the owner's manual
http://filedepot.onkyousa.com/Files/own_manuals/TX-SR805_875_B_En.pdf?CFID=980920&CFTOKEN=11931473&jsessionid=f0308a0852b3b58e110f4927025407b5d337

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Something, as pointed out by Pearlcorder, that is NOT overrated.

I only really felt that way about Oppo...

 

[PearlcorderS701]

Go Steelers!

...maybe if they brought back Bradshaw...otherwise, it's Go PATS!

 

[PENG]

I'm surprised no one has brought up Denon yet ... any reason for that? I thought they were well regarded?

I'm short on time right now. But, again, my thanks to all who are contributing their wisdom. I'll be back.

I cannot find a Denon or any (almost) AVR that does 5.1 and yet offers the 2 channel driven output power comparable to that of the HK3490.

 

[SJesMe]

i wouldnt agree, ever since figuring out how to adjust Dolby PLII music on my surround AVR, stereo sounds so flat and boring.

one of the biggest stereo problems eliminated using PLII: no sweet spot in between the LR channels, you can sit anywhere in the room and still have perfect imaging.

doesent sound like instruments are stuck in front of you, sounds realistically spread out to be convincingly spacious, especially with acoustic music like a symphony. i would never go back to 2 channel music again, its like mono became when stereo hit the market.

This is a classic example of what I was referring to in saying "sound" is subjective. I can only say that if the stereo you were used to sounded flat and boring, you have never listened to "real" 2-channel stereo. With no offense intended whatsoever, I have listened to stereo and experienced a feeling of being "inside" the music ... such that it filled the room and brought me to tears. Perhaps the one-dimensionality you describe was because you were listening to stereo on a surround AVR ...? (Which is what I'm desperately trying to avoid.)

PENG: I do appreciate your technical expertise but will readily admit you've lost me. Also, I haven't really considered the 805 since Jeff R (post #2) said that it was probably wasn't a good option if I didn't utilize the 7.1 surround it was meant to produce.

You said:

I cannot find a Denon or any (almost) AVR that does 5.1 and yet offers the 2 channel driven output power comparable to that of the HK3490.

I was afraid of that ... and also why I'm here. I assume you mean without attempting the bridging options you explained in your post #28 (not that I'm adventuresome enough to even try such a thing).

So, was my experience with the AVR7000 a fluke then? I wonder if anyone can offer any thoughts on the Marantz SR5003 / 6003? It (like the HK 3490) offers Dolby Virtual Speaker, but with all the bells and whistles of a 7.1 and a direct 2-channel mode (I think).

Thanks again for all the help. Keep suggesting and I'll keep researching.

 

[Jeff R.]

PENG: I do appreciate your technical expertise but will readily admit you've lost me. Also, I haven't really considered the 805 since Jeff R (post #2) said that it was probably wasn't a good option if I didn't utilize the 7.1 surround it was meant to produce.


I was basically saying the 805 was out because you will not be able to utilize all the features on it. As far as the Amplifier section and running a pair of speakers in stereo it will be a very solid performer, especially the Pure Audio mode, like mentioned previously the 805 will likely outpower the the 2 channel HK and the 2 channel Onkyo. I was basically steering you away from a very large heavy reciever that most of the features you are looking for will not be used. (Save $$$) However I am sure you can find a used on out there on EBay or Audiogon for a price in the $400 range.

Jeff

 

[PENG]

PENG: I do appreciate your technical expertise but will readily admit you've lost me. Also, I haven't really considered the 805 since Jeff R (post #2) said that it was probably wasn't a good option if I didn't utilize the 7.1 surround it was meant to produce.

That's fine, I was simply responding to Jeff's post #11 and M Code's post#15. That being said, I assumed Jeff's was comparing the amp section of the 3490 to the 805 but perhaps he was comparing it to the Onkyo 8555. It was confusing because Jeff started talking about the 805 and then someone suggested the 8555 so when Jeff later on (post#11) compared the Onkyo with the HK 3490 I could not tell which Onkyo he was referring to. Then M Code tried to tell me something that made no sense so I wanted to make sure you understand there is no way the HK3490 has more power than the 805. The rest of it does not matter if you don't care for the technical stuff.

I assume you mean without attempting the bridging options you explained in your post #28 (not that I'm adventuresome enough to even try such a thing).

Please make no such assumption. I listed 3 options, only one involved bridging. My point is, the 805 is every bit as powerful as (or slightly more powerful than) the AVR7000. By the way I am not the one who suggested the 805. Your and Jeff started talking about it in the earlier posts. I only joined in as I attempted to clarify the output power of the 805 when I felt that you could have been misled to believe it had less output power than the 3490, when the opposite was true. As a matter of fact, a few months ago you could still purchase a new 805 for under $600 but I think they are no longer available except for used ones. So unless you are fine with used ones the 805 is not even an option.

So, was my experience with the AVR7000 a fluke then? I wonder if anyone can offer any thoughts on the Marantz SR5003 / 6003? It (like the HK 3490) offers Dolby Virtual Speaker, but with all the bells and whistles of a 7.1 and a direct 2-channel mode (I think).

I don't know why you would want to replace the AVR7000 in the first place. It is a very powerful AVR. If your speakers and your room acoustic condition do not need that kind of power then a 3490 or the Marantz 6003 will do the trick for you. If you do need that kind of power than you have to get something as powerful as the AVR7000 and you just can't get such powerful AVR on a low end budget that you mentioned in your first post.

 

[SJesMe]

It definitely does get confusing. Thank you for making it clearer.

Jeff R:

I was basically saying the 805 was out because you will not be able to utilize all the features on it. As far as the Amplifier section and running a pair of speakers in stereo it will be a very solid performer, especially the Pure Audio mode, like mentioned previously the 805 will likely outpower the the 2 channel HK and the 2 channel Onkyo. I was basically steering you away from a very large heavy reciever that most of the features you are looking for will not be used. (Save $$$) However I am sure you can find a used on out there on EBay or Audiogon for a price in the $400 range.

The AVR7000 weighed 50 lbs so neither the weight nor cost of the 805 is scary. I actually have a bigger budget than I thought I'd need (up to $1500).

PENG:

I said

I assume you mean without attempting the bridging options you explained in your post #28 (not that I'm adventuresome enough to even try such a thing).

You replied:

Please make no such assumption. I listed 3 options, only one involved bridging.

Typo - sorry. I meant "without attempting the bridging option" (singular), which you said would nearly double the 805's rated output power (making it substantially more powerful than the 3490). This still conflicts with your later post about not finding any 5.1 which offers the 2 channel driven output power comparable to that of the HK3490. So that still confuses me (sorry to be dumb) ... but I'd like to move past it in any event.

I don't know why you would want to replace the AVR7000 in the first place. It is a very powerful AVR. If your speakers and your room acoustic condition do not need that kind of power then a 3490 or the Marantz 6003 will do the trick for you. If you do need that kind of power than you have to get something as powerful as the AVR7000 and you just can't get such powerful AVR on a low end budget that you mentioned in your first post.

I don't WANT to replace it PENG ... it died. It's 10 years old and they want $500 to fix it with a 30-day guarantee that it'll stay fixed. To me, that's a waste of money, no matter how much I loved it. And when I originally stated I had a "lower-end budget," I was thinking more in terms of, like, not over $2000 (which in some forums will get you laughed at ... audio-snobbishness being what it can be). I clarified later, (in post #13), in response to m_vanmeter, my budget is around $1500 ... but lower than that would be welcome, particularly if I have to buy more speakers (sore subject).

My room is 18'x20'. The entertainment center is placed against a 20' foot wall. I have a hardwood floor with a low-plush 12'x15' area rug. One adjacent wall (18') has an 8' floor-to-ceiling stone fireplace) surrounded by built-ins, the wall across from the entertainment center has a 12' window (fully draped as needed). The other adjacent 18' "wall" is mostly open with a pass-through counter to the kitchen and a 8' (open) walk-through. the original ceiling was 7 1/2' with 4" exposed beams. I have "dropped" acoustic tiles 1" down between the beams.

I have JBL S312IIs placed on either side of the entertainment center, angled slightly toward the center of the opposite wall. They are 8ohm, 3-way speakers with a 1" titanium tweeter, a 4" midrange and a 12" woofer, rated at 94 dB and 250 watts. (These speakers alone make me a little uneasy about going with the Onkyo TX-8555 as Pearlcorder's Polk R20s are probably a tad easier to please.)

So, can we discuss the 805 then? Reports/reviews note the following:

• Audio latency (lip-synch issues)
• Audio switching delays (2-4 seconds)
• Running hot
• Lousy customer service

Of the two audio issues, the latency would probably bug me. Any feedback on whether this is accurate? Or maybe there's been a firmware update to correct it?

The heat issues are fairly common with Onkyo (and probably other "serious" AVRs). The HK I had ran quite warm, but not fry-an-egg-on-it "hot." The 850 is 17 1/8" x 18 1/16" x 7 5/8". I have a 20" x 20" x 12" (open front/back but closed sides) dedicated spot for it. The back has about a 4" clearance to the wall. Would this be open enough for it to breathe sufficiently or would I have to incorporate some cooling fans?

As for the customer service ... yeah. Let's just hope I don't need it since there's naught can be done about it.

Also, the 805 offers bi-amping. This sounds like it would be for my stereo set-up (but I'm not familiar with it) but I don't see that it offers Dolby Virtual Speaker (to simulate surround) when using it in stereo.

Thank you again for continuing to help me.

 

[PENG]

This still conflicts with your later post about not finding any 5.1 which offers the 2 channel driven output power comparable to that of the HK3490. So that still confuses me (sorry to be dumb) ... but I'd like to move past it in any event.

No problem, I can easily de confuse you on this one too. Most latest 5.1 AVR, such as those by HK, are entry level AVR's. As such they are typically light weighted and even when ask to drive only 2 channels their output power will not come close to that of the 2 channel HK 3490. The AVR-805 is a 7.1 AVR, not an enty level 5.1. Again, I doubt you can find a new 805 anyway so it is really a moot point now.

I don't WANT to replace it PENG ... it died. It's 10 years old and they want $500 to fix it with a 30-day guarantee that it'll stay fixed.

It is a pity to let it die as those HK AVR-7000 series receiver are very powerful indeed. That being said, I agree it is not worth spending $500 to fix it and only get a 30 day guarantee.

(in post #13), in response to m_vanmeter, my budget is around $1500 ... but lower than that would be welcome, particularly if I have to buy more speakers (sore subject).

Sorry I missed that post. With a $1,500 budget I would then recommend the Denon AVR-4310. It has the highly regarded ABT video processor in it and recent reviews show that it's power output is quite respectable. Not as good as your old HK but for 2 channel stereo it should come close and in any case it should offer enough power for your 94 dB JBL speakers in that 18X20 room. For more information, check this out,

http://hometheatermag.com/receivers/denon_avr-4310ci_av_receiver/

and be sure to take a look of the lab measurements. The newer Onkyo models such as the 3007 will have output power equal to or better than the AVR-7000 but then you may worry about their heat issues.

 

[lsiberian]

This is a classic example of what I was referring to in saying "sound" is subjective.

Remember part of it is objective. More of it than most folks want to admit. That's why I can engineer a loudspeaker.

Stereo is great when you are sitting the sweet spot, but it does have a poor response outside the sweet spot. This is why I suggest omnipolar stereo speakers. Put the drivers on both sides of the speaker and it widens the sweet spot up pretty well.

 

[Jeff R.]

I have a hard time understanding why you want to spend so much money for a reciever that you are going to not utilize any of the functionality on. To spend $1500 on a receiver to power your JBL towers seems a little excessive to me. Those JBL's are very easy to drive and anything even close to 100 watts should be plenty of power for what you need. I really do not think your AVR7000 was even working to drive those speakers. I used my AVR7000 to power my MB Quarts that are a 4 ohm 86db sensitivity. You JBL's at 8 ohms and 94 db sensitivity should be not require that kind of investment in a receiver. Get the HK 3490 and save $1100 and use it for something else....

Jeff

 

[SJesMe]

Jeff R and PENG, you've been very helpful. Just as a last clarification, that $1500 (which I classified as a "lower-end budget") was what I thought I would need to spend to get something comparable to the AVR7000. Please remember, it's been 10 years since I looked at anything on the market. So, yes, I would agree that $1500 in the current market is excessive for my needs. I also agree that the JBLs are very efficient and not hard to drive. The AVR7000 was rated at 100 wpc so I'm certainly satisfied I will have no problem at that power or even lower. (I'm still thinking about that Marantz 5003 or the 6003, but I guess no one has had any experience with them.)

My concern is and always has been the AVR which is overstated/overrated. (Pearlcorder says Oppo for example.) These lesser quality units line the shelves at Best Buy or whatever and for 7 speakers and a "100 watts per channel!" receiver, are out the door for $300. Marketing is a wonderful thing when it comes to selling to the uninformed. It is clear to me that there are some out there that sound quite poorly despite being rated 100 wpc and I am not as educated in the engineering aspects as you all are. I've been hearing how state-of-the-art Denon is, and yet I get the feeling they are overpriced for what they deliver. So I came here to learn.

I thank you all for the education. Codifus was particularly helpful and I am still considering the 3490 based solely on his work-around. Suffice it to say I have no desire to clog up my room with a bunch of speakers I don't need/want just to satisfy the requirements of 5.1 or 7.1 receiver simply because they're all the rage and easier to find.

I think I will stay away from Onkyo based on my own personal bad experience with them, the overheating issue, pops/clicks/delays and latency issues and the notoriously poor customer service. So I guess I'll be sticking with HK one way or the other. The Virtual Dolby Speaker/VMAx option really has me sold based on my experience with the AVR7000 (10 years, two speakers = very happy).

Thank you again.