Looking for a new review baseline speaker system, and something to rock the house.

[psbfan9]

I know some forum members don't care for THX certification, but there are plenty of people (myself included) who do care for it.

IOW, if I have 2 speakers that I like equally, I would buy the one with THX Ultra2 certification even if that means I may pay a little extra.

Actually, the Klipsch KL650-THX Ultra2 is not that expensive if you know where to buy them. I could get them for $1300/PR delivered.

I know a lot of people don't give Klipsch any respect. But the fact that these KL650 are THX Ultra2 and +/-1dB FR from both Audioholics and HTM means more to me than hearsay.

If I could sell all the speakers in my family room, I would probably get a pair of KL650.

As you have said, that certification comes at a cost. With Bamberg, you get the same specs. with out the cost of a 'label'.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

As you have said, that certification comes at a cost. With Bamberg, you get the same specs. with out the cost of a 'label'.

I know, but some people want that "label".

It means the speaker has been tested and measured by another 3rd party - THX.

I am just saying the THX certification sells to many people.

 

[slipperybidness]

I know, but some people want that "label".

It means the speaker has been tested and measured by another 3rd party - THX.

I am just saying the THX certification sells to many people.

Yeah, and there has been so concerns raised over the validity of the THX cert. As I recall, not for the speakers but for the electronics.

My Pio Elite has both THX and Air Studios certs

 

[fuzz092888]

If he doesn't mind buying used, I'd jump on these in a heartbeat. Heck, if I wasn't already building a new pair I'd buy these myself.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/classifieds-sell-your-gear/87239-fs-philharmonic-2s-black-asian-cabinets-$1800.html

 

[Marshall_Guthrie]

They wouldn'tallow for a matched front 3 with the setup I have, but I'm sure they're a great deal.

If he doesn't mind buying used, I'd jump on these in a heartbeat. Heck, if I wasn't already building a new pair I'd buy these myself.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/classifieds-sell-your-gear/87239-fs-philharmonic-2s-black-asian-cabinets-$1800.html

 

[fuzz092888]

They wouldn'tallow for a matched front 3 with the setup I have, but I'm sure they're a great deal.

Wait, why do you want a matched 3, over a pair of towers with a timbre matched center?

 

[psbfan9]

Wait, why do you want a matched 3, over a pair of towers with a timbre matched center?

"I'm super sold on 3 identical speakers for the front sound stage. I'd been every combination of towers, bookshelves, and "center" speakers, and I've just never had the tonal cohesion that I've heard in identical front 3 setups. I find that, for me, it makes enough sense on paper and in practice that I'm going that route."

Signed; Marshal 'Mathers' Guthrie

 

[fuzz092888]

"I'm super sold on 3 identical speakers for the front sound stage. I'd been every combination of towers, bookshelves, and "center" speakers, and I've just never had the tonal cohesion that I've heard in identical front 3 setups. I find that, for me, it makes enough sense on paper and in practice that I'm going that route."

Signed; Marshal 'Mathers' Guthrie

Haha, nice signature

I just don't know how much I'd actually benefit from a third Phil 3 as a center over the Salk Center, other than bass extension and max output. If my L/R were different I might feel differently or if my room was larger.

 

[Marshall_Guthrie]

Yes, I get the eminem thing alot. Atleast he's shaped up. Imagine if my parents had named me "Flavor Flav Guthrie" (though Flav is headed back to get his GED, I hear)

It's really not about output or extension, but timbre matching to the last degree. As quoted, I've had 3 models of the JBL studio series, Aperions, Polks and SVS, all in unmatched configurations, and nothing has given me the seamless front image on 5.1 that I've heard in a matching 5 speaker setup of powered yamaha monitors at a college I used to work at, or the 3 matching setup of JBL S38ii I had for a period. I'd love the flexibility that an acoustically transparent screen would give me to choose tower or bookshelves, but I don't have the space.

I'm also going to be keeping them very close to the same vertical plane.

Haha, nice signature

I just don't know how much I'd actually benefit from a third Phil 3 as a center over the Salk Center, other than bass extension and max output. If my L/R were different I might feel differently or if my room was larger.

 

[fuzz092888]

Depending on the speakers and company I think you can get extremely close without matching, while also maximizing your two channel listening as well. FWIW, the tweeters on my center and towers are within a half inch of each other height wise and the Abbado BD's sound absolutely stunning.

That being said, a matched front soundstage of just about anything on your list won't exactly sound terrible

Yes, I get the eminem thing alot. Atleast he's shaped up. Imagine if my parents had named me "Flavor Flav Guthrie" (though Flav is headed back to get his GED, I hear)

It's really not about output or extension, but timbre matching to the last degree. As quoted, I've had 3 models of the JBL studio series, Aperions, Polks and SVS, all in unmatched configurations, and nothing has given me the seamless front image on 5.1 that I've heard in a matching 5 speaker setup of powered yamaha monitors at a college I used to work at, or the 3 matching setup of JBL S38ii I had for a period. I'd love the flexibility that an acoustically transparent screen would give me to choose tower or bookshelves, but I don't have the space.

I'm also going to be keeping them very close to the same vertical plane.

 

[Philip Bamberg]

Yeah, and there has been so concerns raised over the validity of the THX cert. As I recall, not for the speakers but for the electronics.

My Pio Elite has both THX and Air Studios certs

Going through the THX certification experience was eye-opening and frustrating. It actually was a back-and-forth game over testing and re-testing, with the company receiving a bill for each round.

You might also be surprised to learn just how much deviation from "flat" is allowed by the spec, but that becomes apparent by the obviously different tonal balance between two speakers both of which received certification. (This comment is FYI, not criticism from me.)

Yes, I believe in and support the spec (although it is not ground-breaking by any means), but the process is political and the result is about profits.

My 2 cents.

 

[Marshall_Guthrie]

So, I can't update the first post with the list, which is a bummer, but I'm officially adding the Bamberg Series 2 TM to the list. Anyone in Oregon have a pair of these that I could listen to? I'll bring beer.

 

[Philip Bamberg]

It's really not about output or extension, but timbre matching to the last degree. As quoted, I've had 3 models of the JBL studio series, Aperions, Polks and SVS, all in unmatched configurations, and nothing has given me the seamless front image on 5.1 that I've heard in a matching 5 speaker setup of powered yamaha monitors at a college I used to work at, or the 3 matching setup of JBL S38ii I had for a period. I'd love the flexibility that an acoustically transparent screen would give me to choose tower or bookshelves, but I don't have the space.

I'm also going to be keeping them very close to the same vertical plane.

Bear in mind that while 3 identical front speakers is a good idea, it still does not guarantee absolutely identical sound from all 3. There are room acoustic issues associated with each speaker's proximity to the room boundaries, audio furniture, etc. And there are trade-offs - such as if you had to raise the TV because the center speaker is raised, then you could become psychologically bothered by the high viewing angle.

Anyway, here is an interesting anecdote...
During Christmas break 2011 I visited a good customer of mine in Austin. He had ordered five Bamberg Series 5 monitors (he already had a powerful sub) for use in the home theater. He also had two SVS wedge-shape small surround speakers on the rear as rear-center fill surrounds.

(I designed the SSS speaker, which is the same configuration I used for the Klipsch THX surround. These were a budget-cost speaker with TM firing 45-degrees horizontally one direction, and another MT driver pair firing the opposite direction at -45 degrees.)

He demonstrated his receiver's automatic calibration process that sends pink noise to each speaker in turn, and uses the microphone to set levels, EQ, etc.

He could not wait to run this demo for me. Know why? Because all seven speakers had the EXACT same sound on pink noise! I was almost shocked. In other words, the $250 surround speaker sounded the same for tonal balance as the $1500 high end monitor. And the two speakers were designed years apart, with different parts, and even different acoustic configurations! They sounded the same because they were designed and voiced by the same engineer.

So my opinion is that using two different speakers in the 3 locations is not as risky as one might think. And pink noise is a quick and easy way to check for timbre matching yourself.

 

[shadyJ]

Going through the THX certification experience was eye-opening and frustrating. It actually was a back-and-forth game over testing and re-testing, with the company receiving a bill for each round.

You might also be surprised to learn just how much deviation from "flat" is allowed by the spec, but that becomes apparent by the obviously different tonal balance between two speakers both of which received certification. (This comment is FYI, not criticism from me.)

Yes, I believe in and support the spec (although it is not ground-breaking by any means), but the process is political and the result is about profits.

My 2 cents.

Hey Phil, can you tell us anything about the off-axis requirements of the THX certification?

 

[Marshall_Guthrie]

I agree completely. In addition to real program material, I test positioning with a 360-degree pink noise sweep (off the DVE disc I believe). Using that sweep, I can say the best systems I've heard used 3 identical speakers in identical vertical plane several feet from room boundaries. Unfortunately, I've personally found it's not as simple as grabbing speakers from the same designer. After trying various combinations of JBL S310ii, S-Centerii, S38ii, and S26ii, only the S310ii L/R plus S26ii center performed similarly enough for me to be happy with after EQing with Audyssey Mult-EQ. Now, I'm looking to move beyond happy to thrilled.

My 92" screen is non-AT, so positioning is already a compromise. Based on seating posture, we're fairly reclined, so I opted to raise the screen, get the center tweeter as close to ear-level as possible, and leave the option of a more up-right posture for critical listening. I'll have to do a video tour of my space and attach it to this thread. I'll see if I can get that done tonight, but I'm working pretty late.

I'm not trying to spread FUD about towers with matching centers. Like I said, I made compromises with my setup that others may not want to make, and even with non-identical speakers, I've gotten really close to my ideal. If you're in the market, please let your ears be your guide and don't let my particular obsession for matching fronts become your own.

Audioholics probably has a great article on setting up centers to get them sounding like your fronts. My list is:
-Get the tweeter as close to ear level or matching the fronts as possible.
-Experiment with tilt towards the listeners ears (rubber door stoppers, foam, and/or thick fabric make excellent tools for tilting)
-get it out of your furniture. Set it on top away from boundaries to avoid the "boxy" sound.
-EQ with your AVR if available.

Bear in mind that while 3 identical front speakers is a good idea, it still does not guarantee absolutely identical sound from all 3. There are room acoustic issues associated with each speaker's proximity to the room boundaries, audio furniture, etc. And there are trade-offs - such as if you had to raise the TV because the center speaker is raised, then you could become psychologically bothered by the high viewing angle.

...

He could not wait to run this demo for me. Know why? Because all seven speakers had the EXACT same sound on pink noise! I was almost shocked. In other words, the $250 surround speaker sounded the same for tonal balance as the $1500 high end monitor. And the two speakers were designed years apart, with different parts, and even different acoustic configurations! They sounded the same because they were designed and voiced by the same engineer.

So my opinion is that using two different speakers in the 3 locations is not as risky as one might think. And pink noise is a quick and easy way to check for timbre matching yourself.

 

[Marshall_Guthrie]

Also, just to clarify, you mean you designed the "SVS" surround? And this was the SVS SSS-02 model?

(I designed the SSS speaker, which is the same configuration I used for the Klipsch THX surround. These were a budget-cost speaker with TM firing 45-degrees horizontally one direction, and another MT driver pair firing the opposite direction at -45 degrees.)

 

[Philip Bamberg]

Also, just to clarify, you mean you designed the "SVS" surround? And this was the SVS SSS-02 model?

Yes. You can see the shape resemblance between the Klipsch and SVS surrounds. I wanted to "pack in" the drivers as tightly as possible, since there are many delay and reflection combinations going on.

For the SSS, developing within those delay issues was quite problematic. So basically, I designed it as a single TM, but with the crossover seeing half the impedance of each single woofer and tweeter. The I just hooked up all four drivers to the single 2-way crossover. Man, things were tight inside that box.

To check the voicing, I set them up on stands facing out. Boy did that sound kinda weird. The treble was off, so I set that by ear and - you guessed it - pink noise.

Funny how the "acid test" turned out to be 1000 miles away at my customer's house!

BTW, thanks to everyone for indulging my longish posts. I will post a little more info that I would like to share about LCR speakers tomorrow.
Go Colts (and Broncos)!

 

[Marshall_Guthrie]

Your "longish posts" have been packed with great info so far. You're more than welcome to frequent my thread, but might get more traction if you start a dedicated thread.

Yes. You can see the shape resemblance between the Klipsch and SVS surrounds. I wanted to "pack in" the drivers as tightly as possible, since there are many delay and reflection combinations going on.

For the SSS, developing within those delay issues was quite problematic. So basically, I designed it as a single TM, but with the crossover seeing half the impedance of each single woofer and tweeter. The I just hooked up all four drivers to the single 2-way crossover. Man, things were tight inside that box.

To check the voicing, I set them up on stands facing out. Boy did that sound kinda weird. The treble was off, so I set that by ear and - you guessed it - pink noise.

Funny how the "acid test" turned out to be 1000 miles away at my customer's house!

BTW, thanks to everyone for indulging my longish posts. I will post a little more info that I would like to share about LCR speakers tomorrow.
Go Colts (and Broncos)!

 

[3db]

Going through the THX certification experience was eye-opening and frustrating. It actually was a back-and-forth game over testing and re-testing, with the company receiving a bill for each round.

You might also be surprised to learn just how much deviation from "flat" is allowed by the spec, but that becomes apparent by the obviously different tonal balance between two speakers both of which received certification. (This comment is FYI, not criticism from me.)

Yes, I believe in and support the spec (although it is not ground-breaking by any means), but the process is political and the result is about profits.

My 2 cents.

I always thought that THX is added burden that is not required by competently designed audio components. Furthermore, the majority of room environments that THX certified components get thrown in are not THX certified rooms themselves so it truly is a waste of money IHO to chase down THX components.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Do they sell THX certified logos ?

That's what I really want. They look really cool.