Looking at subs

[inura]

Hi Audioholics forums, new guy here with my first post. After having read a bunch of the articles on this site, and watched your YouTube videos I thought why not make a post .

I have been looking to upgrade my sub and have narrowed it down to buying either the SVS PB-1000, the XTZ sub 12.17 or the SVS SB-2000. As i live in Norway they are priced at 610$ ,790$ and 854$ respectively. They all go according to their spec sheet down to 19Hz, so no difference there (no reviews of these on this site of these sadly). I used this site to find the subs, where I sorted by price from low to high and that anything above 19hz was to be filtered out from the results: http://www.prisjakt.no/category.php?m=s267685116&o=produkt_pris_inkmoms#prodlista. The first Yamaha is listed but not with a store that I can buy it from sadly.

So I was looking at subs that go as low as possible for the least amount of money, capped at 7000kr. I have an existing system that I will slowly upgrade, consisting of an Onkyo TX-NR636 reciver, Proson event 655 fronts, Dynavoice Challenger C-5 EX (v3), Argon 6350 side and a Dynavoice Magic sub 8 EX (v3). Crossed over at 60hz to give the bass less work to do. It sounds not that bad for a budget system after tinkering with every setting and speaker placement option there is. But back to the sub, as I feel that this is the weakest link here... I can opt to buy another sub of the same make I already have (218$) *could buy 3 of em on the budget I have , or buy a single better sub that can play deeper and better. Not sure there yet. Any thoughts on this? I do see that I can split the budget on several parts, but I am going to focus on the sub this time around.

 

[rojo]

Hey inura, and welcome! Well, the PB-1000 is SVS's entry level. While probably more capable than your Dynavoice 8" sub (it is an 8-inch sub, right?), it's probably going to struggle to fill a large room. And ported will give you better output than sealed, so I wouldn't recommend the SB-2000. That makes the XTZ sub the best of your choices.

You might also consider the BK Electronics Monolith ported subs. They seem to offer excellent price / performance ratio.

 

[lovinthehd]

A low extension point without a level/distortion spec is only so useful. Multiple subs can have an advantage in smoothing response over more seats than a single sub can provide. Ported subs give you more response down around tuning, probably more useful for movies than music. What's your breakdown of movies vs music? What spl level at 19 hz at what distortion level is appealing to you?

 

[inura]

What's your breakdown of movies vs music? What spl level at 19 hz at what distortion level is appealing to you?

If I was to change out the 8-inch sub for a bigger one. I would use the new sub for movies and the old in a 2.1 system for music. Regarding the spl level at 19Hz vs distortion level, I am not sure when looking at the subs I have listed. My idea here was to first get one sub, then later on get another one. If one is less likely to distort at sub 20Hz, that would be the one I choose. It seems then that the XTZ is the better choice here?

 

[lovinthehd]

If I was to change out the 8-inch sub for a bigger one. I would use the new sub for movies and the old in a 2.1 system for music. Regarding the spl level at 19Hz vs distortion level, I am not sure when looking at the subs I have listed. My idea here was to first get one sub, then later on get another one. If one is less likely to distort at sub 20Hz, that would be the one I choose. It seems then that the XTZ is the better choice here?

Not that familiar with XTZ myself. It isn't a matter of less likely to distort, its how much distortion will it have. You might want to review various third-party testing done at data-bass.com to get an idea of subs in this regard. For movies a ported sub will give you more efficiency around 20hz in any case. Perhaps the PB2000 instead of the SB2000.

 

[rojo]

XTZ is well-reputed with capable subs and reasonable pricing. Their stuff has been featured in a few AH articles. The XTZ sub OP put on his list is absolutely a worthwhile option.

 

[inura]

Then I think we have an answer. Buy a XTZ sub 12.17 now and a second one later. Thank you guys for your replies .

 

[herbu]

If one is less likely to distort at sub 20Hz, that would be the one I choose.

This statement is a bit confusing to me. Below 20Hz you don't hear it, you feel it. It doesn't exist in music. They are the frequencies that vibrate your bladder and make you need to pee during action movies. I'm not sure what "distortion" in these frequencies is like, or how you would even know.

So I'm not sure this would be the most important criterion for me in choosing a sub. Deep extension, yes... Distortion at that extension, I'm not sure.

 

[lovinthehd]

16hz certainly exists in music and can be audible as well....maybe not something everyone may seek, tho definitely exists in movies. All subs are going to distort below 20hz, its just a matter of how much.

 

[fuzz092888]

16hz certainly exists in music and can be audible as well....maybe not something everyone may seek, tho definitely exists in movies. All subs are going to distort below 20hz, its just a matter of how much.

16Hz is rare in music as a fundamental (I think I used fundamental correctly). Pipe organs come to mind, but only with 128ft stop IIRC. If we're talking about synthetic sounds, then that's a whole other ballpark. Harmonics might reach down that low, but again, fairly rare.

Movies as well, still relatively rare as far as the number of movies out there. Especially because they are scene specific.

By that logic, all subs will distort at any frequency, its just a matter of how much. I'm not sure what the point is with that last statement.

 

[lovinthehd]

16Hz is rare in music as a fundamental (I think I used fundamental correctly). Pipe organs come to mind, but only with 128ft stop IIRC. If we're talking about synthetic sounds, then that's a whole other ballpark. Harmonics might reach down that low, but again, fairly rare.

Movies as well, still relatively rare as far as the number of movies out there. Especially because they are scene specific.

By that logic, all subs will distort at any frequency, its just a matter of how much. I'm not sure what the point is with that last statement.

While there are quite a few movies with sub 20hz content, it may not be in the range of movies one would watch. More about having gear capable of reaching down there more than how often and what that is worth to one.

True as far as distortion from any speaker or sub of course, but distortion is generally much higher below 20hz (or even 30hz for that matter).

 

[fuzz092888]

While there are quite a few movies with sub 20hz content, it may not be in the range of movies one would watch. More about having gear capable of reaching down there more than how often and what that is worth to one.

I'm aware of the movies as I tend to use this list. So with the sentence in bold, you're saying that it is more about have subs that can reach that point, than how often you actually use that capability? I think the bigger question regarding the OP is why he wants extension down to below 20Hz and at what SPL levels he intends to hit at those frequencies. If he's looking for chest thump and more SPL's, response below 20 is not a necessity at all.

True as far as distortion from any speaker or sub of course, but distortion is generally much higher below 20hz (or even 30hz for that matter).

True, distortion rises as frequency decreases, but that is highly dependent on drivers, alignment, design, and SPL's. I'll also echo Herbu's sentiment that at frequencies that are no longer heard, a higher level of distortion becomes more acceptable.

 

[lovinthehd]

I'm aware of the movies as I tend to use this list. So with the sentence in bold, you're saying that it is more about have subs that can reach that point, than how often you actually use that capability? I think the bigger question regarding the OP is why he wants extension down to below 20Hz and at what SPL levels he intends to hit at those frequencies. If he's looking for chest thump and more SPL's, response below 20 is not a necessity at all

Sort of, it depends how much that ULF capability is worth the time and expense of achieving. I agree, the OP needs to understand the goals he's setting. Chasing sub-20Hz capability for most probably isn't worth it once they figure out just how much that can take.

True, distortion rises as frequency decreases, but that is highly dependent on drivers, alignment, design, and SPL's. I'll also echo Herbu's sentiment that at frequencies that are no longer heard, a higher level of distortion becomes more acceptable.

Yes, higher distortion becomes more acceptable, but you would try and keep it to a minimum as much as you can, too. OP needs to understand it more I think before he can set realistic goals (or just understand what use a -3dB point at an unknown level actually is).

 

[BoredSysAdmin]

.... a ported sub will give you more efficiency around 20hz in any case. P

Ported subs TYPICALLY for offer higher output at lower base than sealed, but 20hz is not rule which each ported subs goes by. Below its tuning frequency, ported sub's output drops very sharply.

So for movies and large rooms, typically ported subs would work better and in unrelated note - you'd want sub for usable down 20hz output since there are good amount of movies with 20hz content, but as fuzz, mentioned - below 20hz frequencies are very rarely found in most music.

 

[fuzz092888]

Sort of, it depends how much that ULF capability is worth the time and expense of achieving. I agree, the OP needs to understand the goals he's setting. Chasing sub-20Hz capability for most probably isn't worth it once they figure out just how much that can take.

That's kinda my point. Making these recommendations is pointless without first understanding what the goals are in the first place.

Yes, higher distortion becomes more acceptable, but you would try and keep it to a minimum as much as you can, too. OP needs to understand it more I think before he can set realistic goals (or just understand what use a -3dB point at an unknown level actually is).

Obviously you would want distortion low, but again, this all goes back to what the goals of the sub are. Are we looking for infrasonic content and to be able to hit that at 90-100db's, which would most likely also limit SPL above that point if you're also looking for a flat FR, or are we going to strong reference level output 20Hz on up? If it's the former, then distortion below 20Hz becomes a priority and below 25% becomes preferable. If it's the latter, then it doesn't really matter if distortion rises like a rocket ship below 20Hz.

 

[lovinthehd]

Ported subs TYPICALLY for offer higher output at lower base than sealed, but 20hz is not rule which each ported subs goes by. Below its tuning frequency, ported sub's output drops very sharply.

So for movies and large rooms, typically ported subs would work better and in unrelated note - you'd want sub for usable down 20hz output since there are good amount of movies with 20hz content, but as fuzz, mentioned - below 20hz frequencies are very rarely found in most music.

Yes, without knowing port tuning that was an overstatement, but not for the subs I think we're talking about here (obviously a music oriented sub that may have a port tuning in the low 30s would be different). Did you mean to insert a "below" between down and 20hz output in the sentence above?

 

[lovinthehd]

That's kinda my point. Making these recommendations is pointless without first understanding what the goals are in the first place.




Obviously you would want distortion low, but again, this all goes back to what the goals of the sub are. Are we looking for infrasonic content and to be able to hit that at 90-100db's, which would most likely also limit SPL above that point if you're also looking for a flat FR, or are we going to strong reference level output 20Hz on up? If it's the former, then distortion below 20Hz becomes a priority and below 25% becomes preferable. If it's the latter, then it doesn't really matter if distortion rises like a rocket ship below 20Hz.

Most of this I think is to get the OP to look into the subject more, show him what other considerations there are and to set some realistic goals for his room/budget/use.

 

[inura]

I see I made a statement that I did not think properly through... There are some good points made here and a more fitting line would be that i want deep extension on the sub for those movie scenes that have sub 20hz content. Of the ones I have listed it seems like the XTZ is still the one best suited for this. The plan is to set the crossover at 80Hz. Music is not a criteria for me with this system. I am still a bit new to this game and see that there is much to consider.

 

[rojo]

@inura Your XTZ sub plan is a good one. Don't let the ongoing discussion cause you to doubt your decision.

 

[lovinthehd]

I see I made a statement that I did not think properly through... There are some good points made here and a more fitting line would be that i want deep extension on the sub for those movie scenes that have sub 20hz content. Of the ones I have listed it seems like the XTZ is still the one best suited for this. The plan is to set the crossover at 80Hz. Music is not a criteria for me with this system. I am still a bit new to this game and see that there is much to consider.

There are just many considerations, hope you didn't mind me throwing some out there. I know it took me a while with subs as to where I wanted to be. I looked at that XTZ sub, looks pretty nice and agree of those listed this seems the best candidate, also has somewhat adjustable port tuning by use of port plugs.

Your room will really dictate response much more than the specs. How large a room is it? Is it sealed off from other rooms? I have a large room open to others, total of about 6500 cuft so it takes me several large subs to where I want to be (and I am using sealed with eq rather than the ported route myself, currently 3x18" and a dual opposed 15")