Larger Speakers = Larger Listening Sweet Spot?

[LiveJazz]

I've been reading various threads about room size. I have a 26'x20'x8' room that will house my primary system...a large room by most definitions. It is carpeted. Listening/viewing position will be a large sectional sofa, about 15' back from the speakers.I'd been leaning toward a bookshelf-based setup but am now second guessing that.

Basically, I'd like to have my speakers sound as good as possible in a variety of spots. It isn't really a matter of volume. I don't listen at huge volumes anyway....but I have noticed that when you're in a room with really good, large speakers playing, the sound just seems to permeate the room in a very natural and satisfying way, no matter where you sit or stand (almost). One of my formative audio experiences was in a family friend's large living room with a pair of Mirage M1 bipolar speakers playing. It was incredible, like being a sea of rich, smooth and clear (but not necessarily loud) sound.

Perhaps I won't be able to achieve the above, but at the very least, I'd like the speakers to sound excellent without having to be in the perfect triangulated position relative to the speakers. My current bookshelf speakers are quite sensitive to this.

Sound I be looking at bipolar main speakers, or is it really just a matter of woofer size and power? Would a good set up bookshelf speakers and a sub really accomplish the same thing as a floorstander for a large room, or would it be more fluid and natural with larger mains to be begin with?? Would I be giving up much of the clarity I crave with bookshelves?

I'm not necessarily looking for speaker recommendations (through they are welcome!!), but feedback on how this is typically approached with the "room filling" goal in mind. Budget expectations are steadily creeping up...lets say $1200 for floorstanders...but would always prefer less if my goals can be accomplished (ie without floorstanders...I really don't know...wish I could easily audition in my space).

So many factors to consider!

 

[jinjuku]

There is a pair of unfinished Mini-Statements for sale on the Parts Express Tech Talk forum classifieds. The seller is asking $600 plus freight. To me in Louisville it would be $850 and still a bargain.

 

[LiveJazz]

^^ Wow, that is tempting. I've been watching some DIY forums for ideas. I was tossing around the idea of doing a build, but would probably want to start with something a little more simple (Overnight Sensations), just to get a feel for it.

Certainly would not be opposed to buying from an experienced builder.

 

[Pyrrho]

Larger speakers do not equal a larger sweet spot. The "sweet spot" is determined by the dispersion, not by the size. I recommend that you consider some Ohm Walsh speakers if you want a large sweet spot. Here is their web site:

Ohm Speakers | Custom Audiophile Speakers for Music & Home Theater

 

[jinjuku]

^^ Wow, that is tempting. I've been watching some DIY forums for ideas. I was tossing around the idea of doing a build, but would probably want to start with something a little more simple (Overnight Sensations), just to get a feel for it.

Certainly would not be opposed to buying from an experienced builder.

Well the Mini's are certainly built. Just no veneer or other finish applied. They certainly have a generous sweet spot but you will have to play with positioning. My full size Statements never get old. Every time I listen to them I'm left in awe.

 

[fmw]

Speakers move air in order to deliver the sound. Larger speakers move more air so they have a tendency to have a fuller, richer delivery. I've done well in years past with bookshelf and subwoofer combinations, however. It makes the little speakers a part of system that can still move some air.

 

[Pyrrho]

Speakers move air in order to deliver the sound. Larger speakers move more air so they have a tendency to have a fuller, richer delivery. I've done well in years past with bookshelf and subwoofer combinations, however. It makes the little speakers a part of system that can still move some air.

Larger speakers typically reproduce deeper bass, and consequently sound "fuller", but that does not mean that they therefore have a wider sweet spot.



To the opening post:

...
Perhaps I won't be able to achieve the above, but at the very least, I'd like the speakers to sound excellent without having to be in the perfect triangulated position relative to the speakers. My current bookshelf speakers are quite sensitive to this.

That means that you will want to look at omnidirectional speakers, or speakers that are nearly omnidirectional. Which is why I previously suggested Ohm Walsh speakers (the current ones are nearly omnidirectional, but not truly omnidirectional). You will want to look at their web site for a discussion of this aspect, or reviews, such as:

6moons audio reviews: Ohm Acoustics Walsh Micro Tall

Starting on page 21 of:

http://www.theaudiocritic.com/back_issues/The_Audio_Critic_29_r.pdf

My personal experience with Ohm Walsh speakers goes back to an old model, the Walsh 2, that came out in the 1980's. They sound almost the same widely off axis as they do on axis, when properly positioned. I auditioned them when they came out because they had a contest in which one could win a free pair, and to enter, you had to go to a dealer and listen to them (they used to sell the normal way, but now I think they are factory direct). I liked them very much at their price point, and if I had had the money, I would have bought them on the spot. I told my brothers about them, and one of them (who had enough money to afford them) went to audition them because of what I said about them, and he liked them and bought them. He still has them.

I have not heard any of the current models, but I expect that they are similar in this regard, as they are a similar design.

Sound I be looking at bipolar main speakers, or is it really just a matter of woofer size and power? Would a good set up bookshelf speakers and a sub really accomplish the same thing as a floorstander for a large room, or would it be more fluid and natural with larger mains to be begin with?? Would I be giving up much of the clarity I crave with bookshelves?

...

You may like bipolar speakers, but that isn't really going to automatically give you a wide sweet spot. And it is not a question of size of speaker, but a question of how the sound is dispersed into the room.

Some speakers, like my Apogee Stage speakers (which are dipoles), have a very narrow sweet spot. Most people would not regard them as "small" speakers, as they are about 26" wide and about 38" tall, and weigh about 55 pounds (however, they are only about 3" deep). If one is far away from them, then the sweet spot will be larger than when one is fairly close (as with other speakers generally), but they are not speakers with a wide sweet spot. They sound best when one is precisely situated relative to them (though they still sound good when one is not so situated).

If you want the sound to be identical no matter where you are relative to a speaker, then you should be looking at omnidirectional and nearly omnidirectional speakers.

 

[Swerd]

I have a 26'x20'x8' room

Listening/viewing position will be a large sectional sofa, about 15' back from the speakers.

I'd like the speakers to sound excellent without having to be in the perfect triangulated position relative to the speakers. My current bookshelf speakers are quite sensitive to this.

Sound I be looking at bipolar main speakers, or is it really just a matter of woofer size and power? Would a good set up bookshelf speakers and a sub really accomplish the same thing as a floorstander for a large room, or would it be more fluid and natural with larger mains to be begin with?? Would I be giving up much of the clarity I crave with bookshelves?

Budget expectations are steadily creeping up...lets say $1200 for floorstanders

As you realize, answers to your questions are complex. Pyrrho has already mentioned some.

Wide sound dispersion, and the resulting sense of a wide stereo image from two speakers, are achieved by several different design approaches. I'll mention some.

In one sense, wide dispersion and speaker size are inversely related. Large coned speakers may have narrower dispersion than small coned ones. But this depends on the sound wavelength. This is true of all speaker drivers – its a matter of physics.

A cone speaker can make widely dispersed sound if the wavelength of the sound is larger than the diameter of the cone. As sound wavelength gets shorter, and approaches the cone's diameter, the dispersion of the sound begins to get narrower, to the point where the sound beams in a narrow pattern. So dispersion depends on size of the size of the cone and the wavelength of the sound. Think of a mid woofer in a 2-way speaker. A well designed speaker crossover will take that into account and pick the crossover wavelength at the point where wide dispersion begins to drop. You'd be surprised how many commercially available speakers fail to do that. If done well, it creates a speaker with both wide dispersion and good imaging focus. If done poorly, it creates a narrow sweet listening spot that requires high volume to make the sweet spot get larger.

The reflected sound from the rooms walls also contribute the overall sense of spaciousness. This can vary significantly with room size, reflectiveness of walls, speaker and listener location, etc, as well as wavelengths where this is most affected. It can take a lot of trial and error to optimize this. In your case, a large room may help minimize the effect of room reflections.

With monopole speakers (drivers mounted on the front of a standard cabinet), most sound is directly radiated from the front, but their location in the room, near or far from walls does have an indirect effect.

There are dipole and bipole designs that change this balance. A dipole (imagine a speaker with an open back) radiates sound both forward and rearward, and a bipole has one or more drivers mounted on the front and rear to do this. There are omnidirectional speakers with one or more drivers facing upward or downward rather than forward and backward. These multi-directional speakers often have a different sound, and have different location requirements than monopole speakers. They are an acquired taste that not everyone likes.

 

[LiveJazz]

You may like bipolar speakers, but that isn't really going to automatically give you a wide sweet spot. And it is not a question of size of speaker, but a question of how the sound is dispersed into the room.

If one is far away from them, then the sweet spot will be larger than when one is fairly close (as with other speakers generally), but they are not speakers with a wide sweet spot. They sound best when one is precisely situated relative to them (though they still sound good when one is not so situated).

As you realize, answers to your questions are complex. Pyrrho has already mentioned some.

In one sense, wide dispersion and speaker size are inversely related. Large coned speakers may have narrower dispersion than small coned ones. But this depends on the sound wavelength. This is true of all speaker drivers – its a matter of physics.

A cone speaker can make widely dispersed sound if the wavelength of the sound is larger than the diameter of the cone. As sound wavelength gets shorter, and approaches the cone's diameter, the dispersion of the sound begins to get narrower, to the point where the sound beams in a narrow pattern. So dispersion depends on size of the size of the cone and the wavelength of the sound. Think of a mid woofer in a 2-way speaker. A well designed speaker crossover will take that into account and pick the crossover wavelength at the point where wide dispersion begins to drop. You'd be surprised how many commercially available speakers fail to do that. If done well, it creates a speaker with both wide dispersion and good imaging focus. If done poorly, it creates a narrow sweet listening spot that requires high volume to make the sweet spot get larger.

That's fascinating! Thank you all, this is extremely informative. The level of detail is amazing...I've been looking all over the place for this kind of information but it's really hard to find (at least it is if you don't know the right search terms to use in the first place!).

I suppose it makes sense that a sweet spot can't fill a room, since by definition a true sweet spot can only occupy one spot. I guess a better way of phrasing it would be, I'd like as little degradation of sound as you move out of sweet spot as possible. This is mainly for the enjoyment of others, if several people are in the room at once. Also I might want to sprawl sideways on the couch without worrying about the location of my ears.

I'll try to find of omnidirectional speakers to test, but assuming I don't go that route or find any to test, it sounds like this will really just be a matter of spending time with as many speakers as possible to determine which (if any) speakers in my price range are properly designed to account for the impacts of the wavelength/cone size on dispersion, as Swerd states above. It sounds like it's also good that the listening position(s) in my room will be a fairly good distance from the speakers.

Any top of mind ideas of speakers (or brands) that might be readily testable that might go down that path? Ohm Walsh sounds interesting but I'd really like to be able to test, and most of those designs are out of my price range.

 

[Swerd]

You mentioned earlier that you liked some smaller bookshelf speakers. There's a lot to be said for them, even in larger rooms like yours. With a sub woofer, they can be great.

Let's talk about 2-way speakers with 5½" to 6½" mid woofers and a small dome (¾" or 1") or ribbon tweeter. If all other things are equal, except cabinet size, the small speaker may have more coherent imaging, but the larger speaker may have more potent bass.

From the point of view of a listener on a sofa, the speaker cabinet's width may have the greatest effect on dispersion or imaging. A narrow cabinet front may do better than a wide one. So if a bookshelf and floorstanding cabinet are the same width, you may not notice a difference.

Click on the link below in my signature line and read my SongTower Listening Impressions. I talk about my experiences with imaging going from a large wide 3-way speaker to a narrow 2-way speaker.

Another feature of small bookshelf speakers, is that because the cabinets are smaller, they are stronger than than larger floor standing cabinets, and may vibrate less. This difference is subtle, but sometimes it can be audible. Large cabinets can also be made to resist internal vibrations, but it costs more to make them that way.

In your price range, three very good small bookshelf 2-way speakers are:

Salk SongSurround I

Ascend Sierra-1

Philharmonic Audio Philharmonitor

These companies make floor standing versions of these speakers, but their cost is higher than your price limit of $1200 a pair.

There are other good makes, such as PSB, Paradigm, KEF, but I am less familiar with them. I would avoid B and W or Monitor Audio.