M

mocwilson

Junior Audioholic
hi all,
so when i run my Audyssey set up i am getting an out of phase report on my left and right, ive re run it and sometimes its only the left. im using a denon x4500h. im thinking maybe its just my room acoustics as everything i can see is wired correctly. unless its an internal wiring problem?

any ideas?

thanks all
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Overlord
Which speakers? My Ultras did that almost every time because of the design of the speaker so I ignored it.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
hi all,
so when i run my Audyssey set up i am getting an out of phase report on my left and right, ive re run it and sometimes its only the left. im using a denon x4500h. im thinking maybe its just my room acoustics as everything i can see is wired correctly. unless its an internal wiring problem?

any ideas?

thanks all
It can be due to the crossovers, which invert the polarity of the drivers that need a 12dB/octave slope.
 
Trell

Trell

Audioholic Field Marshall
When I started adding room treatments that consists of panels with scattering plates I started to get out-of-phase warning from my Denon AVR-X4200W just about every time i run the Audyssey setup. The warning has been shown before but very seldom. I just ignore the warning as I know the speaker cables are correctly connected.
 
Gmoney

Gmoney

Audioholic Ninja
hi all,
so when i run my Audyssey set up i am getting an out of phase report on my left and right, ive re run it and sometimes its only the left. im using a denon x4500h. im thinking maybe its just my room acoustics as everything i can see is wired correctly. unless its an internal wiring problem?

any ideas?

thanks all
Umm, I had a issues like yours just a few years ago Yamaha 7790 would tell me I had a speaker out of phase drove me nuts! I been into home audio since the 70's so isn't like I don't know where the neg and pos is supposed to go. Will I had this amp it was the last thing I tried but I pulled all the inter connect cables from my per-amp outs and ran the Auto setup again and Walla! I sold off that XPA-5 amp knowing where I got it from they wouldn't even check it out much less repair it.
 
M

mocwilson

Junior Audioholic
Which speakers? My Ultras did that almost every time because of the design of the speaker so I ignored it.
psb stratus goldi, the strange thing is sometimes its just the left speaker and others times both. which is what makes me think its the room.
 
M

mocwilson

Junior Audioholic
It can be due to the crossovers, which invert the polarity of the drivers that need a 12dB/octave slope.

is there anything i can do to fix it? i cant really tell myself as they still sound good to me....maybe i shouldnt even worry about it?
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
If you have your speakers wired correctly in terms of polarity not a lot you can do about it (outside of switching speaker/wiring and see what follows what), and the reports of a automated system are of limited importance, too. There are some test discs (and likely downloads, but have plenty of discs that provide such phase testing feature...many dvd/blurays include a setup/test section).

Not long ago I redid a bunch of wiring and probably too late at night at times....but at the end when running Audyssey it reported rear surrounds out of phase....at first I thought now way but I checked and indeed I had mis-connected. Acoustic environments can also trick an automated system to report this....
 
highfigh

highfigh

Audioholic Overlord
It's not a problem- reversing the driver in a 12dB/octave slope makes it move in phase with the other driver(s).
 
Pogre

Pogre

Audioholic Overlord
Yeah, I don't think anything needs "fixed". If you've double checked your wiring and everything is correctly hooked up its likely just a quirk of the speakers. I'd just ignore it and move on. You did say everything sounds good so I don't think it's worth any concern.
 
J

Joryde

Audiophyte
I'm with those that think it can probably be safely ignored. You should hear some significant strangeness if there was something truly amiss. But... if you wanted to fiddle with it some more, and if it's not already set up this way, maybe re-define the fronts as full-range w/o subs and try the Audyssey again and see if you get a different answer. As mentioned elsewhere, either the sub-to-mains xover or internal xover of mains might confuse the Audyssey system.
 
M

mocwilson

Junior Audioholic
Yeah, I don't think anything needs "fixed". If you've double checked your wiring and everything is correctly hooked up its likely just a quirk of the speakers. I'd just ignore it and move on. You did say everything sounds good so I don't think it's worth any concern.
Interestingly after bi amping the speakers and re running audyssy set up I did not get the out of phase error.....also I might be hearing slightly better base and seperation but could also be placebo effect.
 
fast fred

fast fred

Full Audioholic
I'm with those that think it can probably be safely ignored. You should hear some significant strangeness if there was something truly amiss. But... if you wanted to fiddle with it some more, and if it's not already set up this way, maybe re-define the fronts as full-range w/o subs and try the Audyssey again and see if you get a different answer. As mentioned elsewhere, either the sub-to-mains xover or internal xover of mains might confuse the Audyssey system.

This happens to me with my new ULTRA Towers - I guess Denon doesn't like Bassy Fronts :)
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Ninja
A very simple way to test your speakers to find out if they operate in phase, is to reverse the polarity of one. They are in phase when the sound is fuller and you have more bass output.
 
fast fred

fast fred

Full Audioholic
A simple way to test your speakers to find out if they operate in phase, is to reverse the polarity of one. They are in phase when the sound is fuller and you have more bass output.
So is it bad to be in "phase"

What are the pros, cons etc
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Ninja
So is it bad to be in "phase"

What are the pros, cons etc
They have to be connected in phase for best results. Out of phase, the speaker cones are not moving in the same direction. There are some cancellations of the various waves and that is why the overall sound is not as loud.
 
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Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic
So is it bad to be in "phase"
What are the pros, cons etc
Verdinut is correct that when the speaker cones move in opposite directions the sound waves cancel each other out, particularly in the bass range. If you ever tested it out you would notice the difference immediately. I used to install car audio and I don't know how many times we had people come in complaining about their system lacking bass, only to find out that one rear speaker was connected backwards (out of phase). 10 seconds to swap two connectors and happy customer. You can place your head close in front of either speaker and hear the bass, but when you are centered between the two speakers the bass drops to a very low level. Physics at work. :D
 
Eppie

Eppie

Audioholic
NO, the sound waves cancel each other AT ALL FREQUENCIES, why not?
Technically yes but not as detectable by the human ear, or perhaps the effect is not as pronounced at higher frequencies. The decrease in bass response is much more noticeable. Easy enough to try if you have banana plugs on your speakers (and turn off the sub).

I've never researched this. If all sound was affected equally, then you would simply get a lowering in volume at all frequencies. That's not what you hear though when two speakers are working out of phase. It's most noticeable in the bass. The more I think about it, I suspect that it has a lot to do with the fact that half of what you hear in a room is reflected sound that arrives at the ear at different times, so the reflected sound (mostly mids and highs) will not get canceled out in the same way as low frequencies. Two speakers outdoors or in an anechoic chamber might behave differently. Any sound engineers out there with a proper explanation?
 
Verdinut

Verdinut

Audioholic Ninja
Technically yes but not as detectable by the human ear, or perhaps the effect is not as pronounced at higher frequencies. The decrease in bass response is much more noticeable. Easy enough to try if you have banana plugs on your speakers (and turn off the sub).

I've never researched this. If all sound was affected equally, then you would simply get a lowering in volume at all frequencies. That's not what you hear though when two speakers are working out of phase. It's most noticeable in the bass. The more I think about it, I suspect that it has a lot to do with the fact that half of what you hear in a room is reflected sound that arrives at the ear at different times, so the reflected sound (mostly mids and highs) will not get canceled out in the same way as low frequencies. Two speakers outdoors or in an anechoic chamber might behave differently. Any sound engineers out there with a proper explanation?
Bass output takes a lot more amp power than mid-high frequencies. Let's say you play music at an average SPL of 80 dB. From that figure, it's possible that at least 65 dB is from the woofer, and the rest comes from the tweeter or midrange and HF drivers. If the speakers are out of phase, let's assume that you a losing a good portion of the audible bass output and also a good portion of the high frequencies. However, in that example, you might be robbed of 30 dB in the low frequencies but only about 6 to 8 dB for the HF.
That explains, in my opinion, our hearing perception.
 

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