Kimber Kable 4PR & 8PR Speaker Cable Review

[zhimbo]

Yes, we read the damn review! But, the question still goes begging - why did he bother to do it at all, if there is no real benefit in buying these cables?

There are people (well, at least 1 person) here who are cable-believers who thinks this article supports them. There are people here who are accusing Gene of inconsistency regarding the sonic properties of cables and are implying he promotes "snake oil". You yourself said "but he didn't or couldn't tell me that any differences were audible", which, while true, is an odd comment on article that repeatedly and consistently said there were no audible differences. Wouldn't your point have been stronger if you had acknowledged what was written?

Clearly these cables don't interest you. They don't interest me, either, in the slightest. In fact, the review was perfectly clear and informational enough to me to have the informed opinion that I don't care about them.

Debate the cables, but people need to read what Gene wrote and stop putting words in his mouth.

 

[jinjuku]

the question still goes begging - why did he bother to do it at all?

Some times you do something because you can... The review, when read entirely, is hardly a raging endorsement for Kimber Cable.

 

[FirstReflection]

I've no problem that the review was done. I like to read reviews on just about anything! I also read the review - every word - from beginning to end.

What bothers me is the statement, "Highly recommended!"

Was that not also part of the review?

I couldn't - in good conscience - recommend such ridiculously over-priced cables and I cannot understand why Gene would either. If these perform no better than 10 gauge zip cord, what is it exactly that makes them "highly recommended". Not just "no harm"; not even just "recommended"; but "highly recommended". That phrase implies more than just par; more than just satisfactory. And when you factor in the high price, "highly recommended" fully implies that there is justification for charging so much. That a potential buyer is truly getting something more than what is offered by a MUCH less expensive alternative.

So my problem really does boil down to just that phrase and also the "value" rating. I feel they are misleading.

 

[jinjuku]

I've no problem that the review was done. I like to read reviews on just about anything! I also read the review - every word - from beginning to end.

What bothers me is the statement, "Highly recommended!"

Was that not also part of the review?

I couldn't - in good conscience - recommend such ridiculously over-priced cables and I cannot understand why Gene would either. If these perform no better than 10 gauge zip cord, what is it exactly that makes them "highly recommended". Not just "no harm"; not even just "recommended"; but "highly recommended". That phrase implies more than just par; more than just satisfactory. And when you factor in the high price, "highly recommended" fully implies that there is justification for charging so much. That a potential buyer is truly getting something more than what is offered by a MUCH less expensive alternative.

So my problem really does boil down to just that phrase and also the "value" rating. I feel they are misleading.

Just because he recommends it doesn't mean I won't perform my own due diligence outside of this solitary review. I am not sure on what basis the 'highly recommended' comes from. Is it the banana plugs? A quick online search shows the plugs to be ~$45 for a pair.

I agree, I am not seeing how a speaker cable at $5.6/foot and $2.9/foot can come highly recommended vs BJC Belden 5000 series at $0.64/Foot (both sans termination). I would like to see an explanation / thought process behind this.

 

[gene]

It amazes me on how many responses we get for a review of wire yet when we write detailed reviews on displays or projectors and loudspeakers, the forum thread remains a ghost town.

Everyone loves to be a critic, especially those that only glance over articles and don't actually read them which is clearly the case from many of the responses herein.

1. I don't know of anyone offering the same level of WBT connectors as Kimber. The simple twist ones that Bluejeans, RAM and others offer are inferior compared to the Kimber ones. I use them everyday and I have grown to hate them for the reasons I mentioned in my review. This makes the Kimber products truly unique.

2. The Kimber 8PR have lower inductance than 10AWG zip cord and comparible resistance. Some people care about those things. Both cables are excellent products and it is unlikely their measurable differences are audible.

3. My listening tests focused on the reference gear I was using as I noted. I don't do listening tests for cables.

Perhaps you missed my statements on that topic:
I am not one who attempts to discern the subtle sonic differences cables convey on an audio system. I am a firm believer that only poorly designed cables can under the right conditions be sonically distinguishable. That being said, my listening tests focused on pure enjoyment of the sound quality of my reference system. At no point did I feel the Kimber cables were adding a level of realism I’ve never heard before with my standard 10AWG Blue Jeans zip cord. Never did I feel the midrange got more chocolatey or a magic veil was lifted. My wife never claimed she could hear the difference all the way from the kitchen while she was cooking up some chicken Marsala.

4. Value was compared to other exotic cables, NOT comparing 10AWG Zip cord but esoteric cables from Audioquest, Nordost, etc.

5. Some people aren't happy with standard zip cord. They like fancy exotic cables. I say more power to them as long as the manufacturer doesn't mislead them with nonsensical technobabble in which Kimber doesn't do. Kudos to them for being one of the few exotic cable vendors selling their product on quantifiable performance metrics instead of Star Trek physics.

6. My review did focus on the performance metrics, design and construction of the cable, NOT just the terminations. Again this would have been ascertained if the review was actually read.

 

[zhimbo]

I've no problem that the review was done. I like to read reviews on just about anything! I also read the review - every word - from beginning to end.

What bothers me is the statement, "Highly recommended!"

Was that not also part of the review?

The great thing about a really good review is that they allow you form your own opinion independent of any summary statement of the reviewer.

Indeed, if a review doesn't allow me to do that, I ignore it completely.

 

[GO-NAD!]

There are people (well, at least 1 person) here who are cable-believers who thinks this article supports them. There are people here who are accusing Gene of inconsistency regarding the sonic properties of cables and are implying he promotes "snake oil". You yourself said "but he didn't or couldn't tell me that any differences were audible", which, while true, is an odd comment on article that repeatedly and consistently said there were no audible differences. Wouldn't your point have been stronger if you had acknowledged what was written?

Clearly these cables don't interest you. They don't interest me, either, in the slightest. In fact, the review was perfectly clear and informational enough to me to have the informed opinion that I don't care about them.

Debate the cables, but people need to read what Gene wrote and stop putting words in his mouth.

If my wording wasn't clear, I sincerely apologize. I certainly wasn't trying to put words in Gene's mouth. Yes, he stated there was no audible differences - I was trying to highlight that fact in an effort to question the purpose of conducting the review in the first place. It's been pointed out that Kimber Kable is a sponsor, ergo a review of that company's products was inevitable, I guess.

I still love ya Gene!!

 

[gene]

To decline a review of a product simply because its expensive is illogical.

If you don't want to spend the coin on Kimber products, go get RAM Electronics or Bluejeans Canare 4S11 cables or save even more money and just buy 12AWG zip cord. If you want a nicer looking product with better connectors that measures better than 12AWG Zip cord and you've got money to burn, then go Kimber! I am not sure I can state it any more simply than that!

I thought it was a fun exercise to pit an exotic cable against standard non esoteric cables. Very few high end cable manufacturers afford me that luxury and it speaks volumes for them regarding their courage

 

[Alex2507]

My wife was cooking up some chicken Marsala.

Now there's a review I could sink my teeth into.

I'm pretty sure I could afford the ingredients too.

No, I did not read your review ... yet.

 

[foeth]

If the value is based against similar 'high-end' cables while the performance is the same as zip-chord which sounds the same, you make an unfair or even wrong comparison and your argument is flawed. The value rating is thus completely meaningless.

If you write a review on a cable and do listening tests which have nothing to do with the cable itself, why write it down in the first place? You did perform a listening test with the cables and didn't hear a difference. Shifting attention to the reference system is a nice trick, but doesn't alter the fact that the added value of the cable to the sound quality is zero. This is not reflected in the conclusions. Attention is directed elsewhere. You consider the added measurements of the manufacturer as an advantage, while this measurement is meaningless. How can you call that a reference-level performing product when not performing at the reference level would be the (dubious) achievement? If you seriously think that no Star Trek science is put forward by Kimber, you apparently have never visited their site.

Anyway, what's important is that you get these reactions because of the general quality of the reviews on Audioholics. That's the hidden compliment in all these responses. I care, really

 

[jinjuku]

4. Value was compared to other exotic cables, NOT comparing 10AWG Zip cord but esoteric cables from Audioquest, Nordost, etc.

Thanks for point # 4. I read the article and was simply wondering where the basis for the recommendation came from.

 

[gene]

If the value is based against similar 'high-end' cables while the performance is the same as zip-chord which sounds the same, you make an unfair or even wrong comparison and your argument is flawed. The value rating is thus completely meaningless.

I see your point. The closest competitor to the 8PR is the Canare 4S11 which sells for about 1/2 the price and has similar performance metrics. I dropped the value down to a 2 which is still generous but fair given the material costs of this product. One thing people need to realize is its costly to eek out higher performance from a cable as it involves multiple strands of braided cable to really lower inductance while also keeping DCR low which IMO is the most important metric in loudspeaker cables.

I still Highly recommend the Kimber 8PRs for those that can afford them and cost is NOT an issue.

If you seriously think that no Star Trek science is put forward by Kimber, you apparently have never visited their site.

I have visited their site and no where did I observe nonsense such as: strand jumping, skin effect, cryo freezing, etc. There was essentially nothing other than measurements of their speaker cables. Sure they mention transparency, but that is not dishonest since their cables aren't acting like tone controls like some of their competitor products do.

 

[Audioholics]

Yes, we read the damn review! But, the question still goes begging - why did he bother to do it at all, if there is no real benefit in buying these cables?

Were you injured in the process? In either case, email me and I will give you a complete refund of your money. We want our readers to be 100% satisfied.

To decline a review of a product simply because its expensive is illogical.

You did NOT just say that!

 

[CraigV]

If you welcome debate, CraigV, I hope you will interpret my comments as they are meant: with respect and a genuine interest in discussion.





You swear that you heard a difference. But the test equipment says otherwise. You weren't lying. But you were mistaken. The difference you heard was in your brain; not in the actual sound. Whether it was because you were expecting to hear a difference and therefore, convinced yourself that you did; or whether it's because of the simple fact that each time we listen, we hear something different because of the way in which we focus and mentally block out certain sounds so that we may notice others; or whether it's because human hearing simply isn't that accurate and can be very easily fooled with auditory illusion - the fact remains that if we want the TRUTH, we have to rely on something other than human perception.

My feeling on the matter is too many people put too much faith in measurements, and take them as a steadfast guideline. Two cars can post similar numbers in a road test, but each will have a different feel. The existence of God can not be “proven” but that doesn’t mean there is no such thing.

To me the differences are not just varying perceptions. Switching out gear for a matter of adding more features and expecting no difference in sound quality, but hearing one anyway proves to me the differences are real, and I am tuned into them.

One of the points I am really trying to hit home is, that if one person claims to hear a difference, it should not be fro someone else to tell them they’re wrong or crazy. It’s my belief; let me have it in peace.

 

[foeth]

Putting faith in a measurement is a direct contradiction

Going from cables to God is a rather large step so I prefer discussing cables for now. The crux of the matter is: you cannot convince me if you cannot produce any verifiable evidence to back up your claims. If you can point out a cable in an AB-X test consistently (meaning a proper AB-X tests in successive runs), I will have no other option than to say you can actually hear the difference (even though I cannot). When you cannot (and others cannot) I can only conclude that:

I have no reason to assume that there is an audible difference.

This does by no means affect your (or my) right to have your opinion or belief in any way or for anyone to not buy that special cable if they care to do so. However, it does mean that for me as a scientist (which you probably inferred from the incessant skepticism) I am not convinced. It does not mean that I can deny differences between cables to an absolute certainty (which would be folly), but if you can have your opinion, so can I. In this case, my well-informed and evidence-based opinion that some people are wrong.

 

[gene]

This does by no means affect your (or my) right to have your opinion or belief in any way or for anyone to not buy that special cable if they care to do so. However, it does mean that for me as a scientist (which you probably inferred from the incessant skepticism) I am not convinced. It does not mean that I can deny differences between cables.

Remember our mantra well:

only poorly designed cables can be (under the right conditions) sonically distinguisable.....

 

[FirstReflection]

Essentially, CraigV, our difference of opinion comes down to a matter of trust. I do not trust human perception. You do not trust measurements. You trust that if you believe you hear a difference that there is a difference - at least to you. And you further do not expect that anyone else will necessarily hear the same difference.

I, on the other hand, disbelieve that any difference I hear is real. I start from the position that my own ears are more likely to be wrong or mistaken and I look to scientific measurement to either confirm or dispell my perception.

You would likely tell someone, "trust your ears. If you hear a difference, then that is all that matters", which is a totally understandable point of view.

I simply do not share it and am far more likely to tell someone, "do not trust your own ears because they can be very easily fooled or your perception altered by something other than actual sound".

Do I hear differences with different cables? Yes. But I do not attribute the differences that I hear to the cables. I attribute the differences to any number of other variables - especially my own focus. And the reason I hold that belief is because I can leave the cables alone - not change a thing - and still hear a difference...which leads me to the conclusion that the cables were never responsible for the differences that I heard

 

[GO-NAD!]

Were you injured in the process? In either case, email me and I will give you a complete refund of your money. We want our readers to be 100% satisfied.

Was I injured? Refund what money? Sorry, I don't get it...

 

[FirstReflection]

With respect, Gene, what you've said in this thread has been clearer than what was written in the review.

To put it plainly, I look to professional reviews to answer the question:

"should I buy this?"

Which is why I have a problem with the summary of your review, which (to paraphrase) says that you like the Kimber cables enough to want to keep them for yourself; that (as I infer the meaning) your primary source of enthusiasm is the connectors; and ultimately, these speaker cables are "highly recommended!" - with an exclamation point - which implies excitement and not mere satisfaction.

Here, in the thread, you have clarified that your recommendation is really only meant for people with money to spare and an already established predilection for "exotic" cables.

I simply want to ask: why not speak plainly and say the same thing in the review summary? Rather than the misleading "Highly recommended!" (with an exclamation point) and no conditions to indicate that these are not, in fact, recommended for everybody?

Put another way, if I were to word the summary myself, I would say, "I can recommend these Kimber cables because they have excellent measured performance and unique connectors that are especially well made. However, the performance is not greatly better than far less expensive alternatives and the recommendation is targeted towards buyers who can easily afford the higher cost and would benefit from the aesthetics and/or the unique connectors."

 

[CraigV]

Essentially, CraigV, our difference of opinion comes down to a matter of trust. I do not trust human perception. You do not trust measurements. You trust that if you believe you hear a difference that there is a difference - at least to you. And you further do not expect that anyone else will necessarily hear the same difference.

I do trust measurements, but they’re not the only thing to take into consideration. You also point out that we perceive things differently at different times. That’s human nature, and is in-escapable. Yes, turn to a machine to get hard numbers, but don’t let that machine tell you how to feel about something.


One point that hasn’t been made and really needs to be – this is Gene’s house, and we are all guests here. If Gene writes up a post about alien visitors who brought him speaker cable made from rare metals on their home planet, and they made his speakers sound better than ever, who are we to tell him he’s wrong?