X

Xytech

Audioholic Intern
Hi all,
Just had a look at my Dad's set of speakers down in the living room. They are Kef model 104's, apparantly from the 1970s. Anyone know anything about this (what appears to be fairly ancient) speaker set? Tempted to give them a whirl while I choose my own speakers! Is there anything I should know before using them?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Hi all,
Just had a look at my Dad's set of speakers down in the living room. They are Kef model 104's, apparantly from the 1970s. Anyone know anything about this (what appears to be fairly ancient) speaker set? Tempted to give them a whirl while I choose my own speakers! Is there anything I should know before using them?
Are they 104s like this?



Or are they 104/2s like this?

 
gmichael

gmichael

Audioholic Spartan
Bass reflex?

Is their another driver inside where we can't see it?
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
They are the former...
So you have Raymond Cooke's 104s.

They were a good speaker for their date.

The bass driver is one of the best and most famous ever built, the B 139.

I use four on my rear backs and tow in my system downstairs.

The mid range cone is the Bextrene B200. These were among the first plastic cone speakers. The Bextrene does impart a slight character to the sound. Also at this date cracking is becoming a big problem with Bextrene cones. Bextrene is no longer manufactured and the speakers can not be repaired.

The tweeter is the KEF T 27. This is before ferro fluid. These tweeters are frail and easily burned out. They have to be crossed over high. I used to cross them over at 5 kHz. I have quite a few in storage.

The speakers have a a complex crossover to give them a flat resistive impedance curve. However with the low sensitivity of the B 139s and the losses of the flat impedance crossover you will require a beefy amp.

The B 139s are rated at 27 watts, But they seem to take a lot more than that.

In essence you can not play music loud with these speakers at this age. If you do you will destroy some very fine historic speakers.

Do not use them for rock music and probably not a lot of movies.

Play classical music at sensible listening levels and you will be fine.

Make sure you have an amp of adequate power and don't drive it to clipping, or the tweeters will be toast in a hurry.

If you destroy the speakers, the KEF B139s are very valuable and fetch very high prices on eBay.

These are a set of very famous speakers and now rare.
 
Whitey80

Whitey80

Senior Audioholic
I, to this day, still kick myself for not picking up a perfect pair of the 104/2's off of local craigslist 2 years ago for $200
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
My memory was at fault when I responded this morning.

The 104 is actually a two way speaker. The lower unit is the passive radiator version, of the B139. -2db point is 50 Hz and the -5db point is 35 Hz.

The speaker is not very powerful and the max power input is 50 watts.

The crossover to the T27 is 3 kHz and third order. The speaker has a peak power handling of 8 watts above 3 kHz so you have to be careful.

It was the KEF Concerto that was the three way using the B 139.

Interestingly that was the only three way that KEF used the B 139 in.

Most B139 were sold to the DIY community and other manufacturers. The B 139 was in some very high end speakers, including Radford, IMF and Fried. There were a lot of those drivers produced.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
My experience with those KEF 10X.Y series speakers is that they have good HF response but not much bass despite the reasonably large drivers and enclosures.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
My experience with those KEF 10X.Y series speakers is that they have good HF response but not much bass despite the reasonably large drivers and enclosures.
The drivers are not really very big. There is one driver just under 8" and the ABR which is not significantly different to a port. To get 5 db down at 35 Hz is very respectable for an 8" two way.

The strange thing is how Raymond Cooke did not take advantage of his wonderful B 139.

I think it reflects the dominance of DIY at that time in British audio. From 1950 to 1970, I would bet there were probably more DIY speakers than manufactured ones. Everybody seemed to be at it. I think Raymond pretty much took it for granted that those who wanted good sound at affordable cost would be the DIY builders. He had lots of designs in his KEF constructor pamphlets and many of them were superior to his complete speakers. They certainly used the B 139.

This should not be surprising as his mentor was Gilbert Briggs of Wharfedale. He wrote many books, informative and very amusing, for the home constructor. To GAB as he was known, the home constructor was the market and the complete speaker the niche market!

GAB and I think Raymond Cooke always felt the home constructor had the edge on quality.

If you think about it a good speaker enclosure is costly to manufacture and ship. To gets costs down manufactured speakers are seldom the finest construction. I think returning to those days would help a speaker manufacturer's bottom line. Selling lots of raw drivers is easy money. Now however the dumb marketing department and MBAs have it all wrong and see raw driver sales as detrimental. I'm certain it is not.

As far as the KEF B 139 bass driver is concerned, it has held a spot at the top of the totem pole for half a century.

KEF were first to use the Thiel/Small parameters and supported the work.

The B 139 has TS parameters right in the sweet spot, and is suitable for sealed ported and TL designs. However it is the TL community that it is particularly revered. In terms of power handling its specification was seriously low balled.

I know of no other driver that can hit the lows in such a relatively small enclosure as the B 139.

My rear TLs with dual B 139s in each speaker have tremendous bass authority. Far better in fact than most current subs.

I think enthusiast will still be scrounging for these drivers for years.

Tangband have tried to copy it sort of, but are well short of the mark.

A serious modern clone of the the B139 would have a lot to offer in modern audio, as you can get deep bass with a narrow cabinet.

The lack of innovation in the mass speaker market astounds me. Speaker after speaker built round 6.5" drivers and smaller, and the demands of digital programs getting ever more onerous.
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
Model 104/2 Specifications
Frequency Range 55Hz - 20kHz (+/- 2dB)
Drive Units HF: T33 25mm (1") Impregnated fabric dome
MF: 2 x B110 100mm (5") Doped Bextrene cone
LF: 2 x B200 200mm (8") Paper cone
Crossover Point 150Hz, 3kHz
Nominal Impedance 4 ohms
Characteristic
Sensitivity Level 92dB
Amplifier Requirements 25-200W into 4 ohms
Maximum Output 112dB
Internal Volumes LF 50 litres
MF 3 litres
Net Weight 32kg (70.5lbs)
Dimensions
(H x W x D) 900 x 280 x 415mm
35.5 x 11 x 16.4 ins
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Model 104/2 Specifications
Frequency Range 55Hz - 20kHz (+/- 2dB)
Drive Units HF: T33 25mm (1") Impregnated fabric dome
MF: 2 x B110 100mm (5") Doped Bextrene cone
LF: 2 x B200 200mm (8") Paper cone
Crossover Point 150Hz, 3kHz
Nominal Impedance 4 ohms
Characteristic
Sensitivity Level 92dB
Amplifier Requirements 25-200W into 4 ohms
Maximum Output 112dB
Internal Volumes LF 50 litres
MF 3 litres
Net Weight 32kg (70.5lbs)
Dimensions
(H x W x D) 900 x 280 x 415mm
35.5 x 11 x 16.4 ins
That is the 104/2. The OP has the 104 which is a totally different speaker. The two speakers having nothing in common, except 104.

104 specs: -

Harmonic Distortion <1% THD 100-30,000 Hz
rel 96dB SPL at 400 Hz
Dividing Frequencies 45 Hz (acoustically coupled)
3,000 Hz (electrical cut-off slope 18dB/8ve
Rated Max. Power 50 watts programme
Continuous Sine 20v (50w) 100-2,500 Hz
Amplifier Requirements 15 to 50 watts into 8 ohms
Wave Rating reducing to 8v (8w) above 3kHz
Nominal Freq. Range 30-40,000 Hz
Nominal Impedance 8 ohms
Specific Freq. Response +/-2dB 50-20,000 Hz
+/-5dB 35-35,000 Hz
-10dB at 30 Hz
System Resonance Mechanical reflex 35 Hz
Sensitivity 12.5 watts into nominal 8 ohms produces 96dB at one metre and 400 Hz in anechoic conditions
Weight 15.8 kg (34.75 lb) net
21.0 kg (46.2 lb) packed
Internal Volume 35.5 litres
Room Size Up to 280 cubic metres (10,000 cu ft)
Finishes Walnut, teak, white
Dimensions 630 x 330 x 260 mm
24.8 x 13 x 10.23 in
Acoustic Contour Control 3 positions +/-2dB centred on 1.5 kHz
Grille Black Microcellular Foam
 
P

Pat D

Audioholic
Hi all,
Just had a look at my Dad's set of speakers down in the living room. They are Kef model 104's, apparantly from the 1970s. Anyone know anything about this (what appears to be fairly ancient) speaker set? Tempted to give them a whirl while I choose my own speakers! Is there anything I should know before using them?
I got a pair of Kef 104 speakers in 1976 and used them until the early 1990s. When the capacitors in one of the crossovers went, I had the newer 104aB crossovers installed. With the original 104, I preferred the midrange control set to the -2 dB position. With the 104aB, I preferred the +2 dB position. I sold them after I got the Quad ESL-63's, and as far as I know, they are still in use.

As TLS mentioned, by post-digital standards, the tweeter was not very robust, although it was tougher than many of that vintage. It should be OK unless you run high frequency test tones through it. Musical transients should give it no difficulty.

Another idiosyncrasy is that the passive radiator, which is a port substitute, does not load the woofer at very low frequencies. This could be a problem with record warps on LPs, at such low frequencies, the excursion of the powered woofer is not damped. This could be a problem at high levels, according to the reviewer in Audio magazine. Although the woofer could handle a lot of power above 100 Hz or so, it could not play cleanly if hard driven under about 40 Hz. The only time this was a problem was if I tried to turn up the bass on organ recordings—after a certain point, the deep bass simply would not get louder. If you get to that point, back off a little. But if you don’t do something like that, the speaker actually has a deep and solid bass response in a 12’ X 20’ room at ordinary levels.

The sensitivity is about 85 dB, I think, but the minimum impedance is only about 7 ohms. However, the speaker is fairly reactive around the crossover region, so it does require a fairly decent amplifier. I used a HK 730 receiver (rated 40, actually 50 watts) for years. I had ambitions to get Quad ESL-63 speakers, so when the receiver’s left channel blew and no one seemed to be able to repair it properly, I got a Quad 606 amplifier (140 watts), which I still have. I felt the larger amplifier was a little better for CDs.

The 8 inch woofer is crossed over to the ¾ inch tweeter at 3 kHz. This necessitates that the off axis dispersion is not very even between about 1000 and 2500 kHz. The speaker has a very even response within 15 degrees right or left of the tweeter axis, which Kef called the listening window. So, if set up well away from the side walls, and with the fairly prominent bass response, about 18 inches off the floor and not too close to the back well, they can still sound very, very good. They are superb on male and female vocal and piano, and quite good on full orchestra and chorus.

I found they sounded much clearer with the foam grilles in place. These damp the cabinet reflections. Unfortunately, they also deteriorate after about 10 or 12 years, and are hard to replace.

If you can set them up properly, you can get good results even by today’s standards. But they are not for head bangers. My advice is not to get something else until you find something you like better.

You can find the specification on the Kef site. Look under Museum, click on the 1970s, and then click on Model 104.

http://www.kef.com/ca/about/museum
 
Last edited:
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
You are in luck. I recently stumbled upon a great site for information on KEF speakers. Here is information about your model, and you can download a brochure and manual and some information about the crossover change:

http://203.85.34.201/html/en/explore/about_kef/museum/1970s/Reference_Series_104/index.html

You also might want to visit:

http://www.hifiloudspeakers.info

That is a site for enthusiasts of KEF speakers, and there are several very knowledgeable people who post there, but I recommend that you read the brochure and manual first (at my first link), which may very well tell you all you want to know. Downloads at that site can sometimes be slow, but remember that patience is a virtue and good things come to those who wait.

KEF has a very good reputation for making really good speakers, and they have had that reputation from before the time of your father's speakers being made. My guess is that they sound pretty good, and you will need to spend a good amount of money to get something better sounding.

With all systems, if you hear distortion, turn down the volume before you damage things.
 
cpp

cpp

Audioholic Ninja
104's here ya go

Model 104 Specifications
Harmonic Distortion <1% THD 100-30,000 Hz
rel 96dB SPL at 400 Hz

Dividing Frequencies 45 Hz (acoustically coupled)
3,000 Hz (electrical cut-off slope 18dB/8ve

Rated Max. Power 50 watts programme

Continuous Sine 20v (50w) 100-2,500 Hz

Amplifier Requirements 15 to 50 watts into 8 ohms

Wave Rating reducing to 8v (8w) above 3kHz

Nominal Freq. Range 30-40,000 Hz

Nominal Impedance 8 ohms

Specific Freq. Response +/-2dB 50-20,000 Hz
+/-5dB 35-35,000 Hz
-10dB at 30 Hz

System Resonance Mechanical reflex 35 Hz

Sensitivity 12.5 watts into nominal 8 ohms produces 96dB at one metre and 400 Hz in anechoic conditions

Weight 15.8 kg (34.75 lb) net
21.0 kg (46.2 lb) packed
Internal Volume 35.5 litres
Room Size Up to 280 cubic metres (10,000 cu ft)
Finishes Walnut, teak, white
Dimensions 630 x 330 x 260 mm
24.8 x 13 x 10.23 in
Acoustic Contour Control 3 positions +/-2dB centred on 1.5 kHz
Grille Black Microcellular Foam
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I got a pair of Kef 104 speakers in 1976 and used them until the early 1990s. When the capacitors in one of the crossovers went, I had the newer 104aB crossovers installed. With the original 104, I preferred the midrange control set to the -2 dB position. With the 104aB, I preferred the +2 dB position. I sold them after I got the Quad ESL-63's, and as far as I know, they are still in use.

As TLS mentioned, by post-digital standards, the tweeter was not very robust, although it was tougher than many of that vintage. It should be OK unless you run high frequency test tones through it. Musical transients should give it no difficulty.

Another idiosyncrasy is that the passive radiator, which is a port substitute, does not load the woofer at very low frequencies. This could be a problem with record warps on LPs, at such low frequencies, the excursion of the powered woofer is not damped. This could be a problem at high levels, according to the reviewer in Audio magazine. Although the woofer could handle a lot of power above 100 Hz or so, it could not play cleanly if hard driven under about 40 Hz. The only time this was a problem was if I tried to turn up the bass on organ recordings—after a certain point, the deep bass simply would not get louder. If you get to that point, back off a little. But if you don’t do something like that, the speaker actually has a deep and solid bass response in a 12’ X 20’ room at ordinary levels.

The sensitivity is about 85 dB, I think, but the minimum impedance is only about 7 ohms. However, the speaker is fairly reactive around the crossover region, so it does require a fairly decent amplifier. I used a HK 730 receiver (rated 40, actually 50 watts) for years. I had ambitions to get Quad ESL-63 speakers, so when the receiver’s left channel blew and no one seemed to be able to repair it properly, I got a Quad 606 amplifier (140 watts), which I still have. I felt the larger amplifier was a little better for CDs.

The 8 inch woofer is crossed over to the ¾ inch tweeter at 3 kHz. This necessitates that the off axis dispersion is not very even between about 1000 and 2500 kHz. The speaker has a very even response within 15 degrees right or left of the tweeter axis, which Kef called the listening window. So, if set up well away from the side walls, and with the fairly prominent bass response, about 18 inches off the floor and not too close to the back well, they can still sound very, very good. They are superb on male and female vocal and piano, and quite good on full orchestra and chorus.

I found they sounded much clearer with the foam grilles in place. These damp the cabinet reflections. Unfortunately, they also deteriorate after about 10 or 12 years, and are hard to replace.

If you can set them up properly, you can get good results even by today’s standards. But they are not for head bangers. My advice is not to get something else until you find something you like better.

You can find the specification on the Kef site. Look under Museum, click on the 1970s, and then click on Model 104.

http://www.kef.com/ca/about/museum
How do you like your Quad ESL 63s and the Quad 606? It sounds as if you have a really nice set up.

There are now at least three of us using Quad current dumping amps on this forum now.

My main system is powered by this collection of current dumpers.

 
K

Ken Shabby

Audiophyte
My experience with those KEF 10X.Y series speakers is that they have good HF response but not much bass despite the reasonably large drivers and enclosures.
I would agree with you there. I own a pair of 105/2's that were my father's that are a tad thin on bass.
 
X

Xytech

Audioholic Intern
Hi All,

I've spoken to Dad about the speakers - firstly, thank goodness I checked here first as I would probably have plugged them into my amp and blown them! Dad was saying that he doesn't think they could handle much beyond his 50 watt old-school amp that he has them plugged into - although they seem to still create very good volume from that amp.

Anyway, he fondly remembers purchasing them all those years ago for apparently a stellar bargain!

Thanks for the thoughts and assistance, had been an interesting read.

Cheers
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Hi All,

I've spoken to Dad about the speakers - firstly, thank goodness I checked here first as I would probably have plugged them into my amp and blown them! Dad was saying that he doesn't think they could handle much beyond his 50 watt old-school amp that he has them plugged into - although they seem to still create very good volume from that amp.

Anyway, he fondly remembers purchasing them all those years ago for apparently a stellar bargain!

Thanks for the thoughts and assistance, had been an interesting read.

Cheers

When looking at power ratings of amplifiers, they are giving maximum power with particular levels of distortion (as the power goes up beyond the maximum RMS ratings, distortion levels tend to rise rapidly). The amplifier is NOT putting out that power always whenever you turn it on; the amount of power it is putting out at any moment is dependent on the input level (which, being music, is somewhat variable) and the position of the volume control. So an amplifier rated for 1000 watts may be putting out less than 1 watt, depending on the input level and the volume control setting. So you can use a powerful amplifier with speakers that cannot handle the total power that the amplifier is capable of putting out.

Basically, whenever the sound starts to become audibly distorted, you should turn down the sound. That, however, will not tell you whether the distortion is due to the amplifier reaching its limits, or the speaker reaching its limits, or both.



Unfortunately, power ratings for speakers are not standardized, and so they mean virtually nothing for comparing between different brands. If you are interested in details regarding power and what it takes to destroy speakers, here are some links:

http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/loudspeaker-power-handling

http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/loudspeaker-power-ratings

http://www.audioholics.com/education/loudspeaker-basics/loudspeakers-power-ratings-part-iii-the-test-results



If you keep the volume down, you will not overpower the speakers. I used a receiver rated at 160 watts RMS continuous per channel (an old Pioneer SX-1250) with speakers that were rated for about half that power. I used that system for more than a decade, with no problems ever. Most of my current systems involve amplification whose abilities exceed what the speaker manufacturers recommend (I have 4 systems set up in my home). I have never damaged a speaker from doing this, and I have had various systems for a few decades now.

Generally speaking, you can find out about how loud you can play a system by putting on music that is at a fairly constant level, and slowly turning up the volume until you start to hear distortion, and then turn it down until the distortion goes away, and you have found what is likely your maximum safe volume (though obviously playing it that loud all day could lead to excessive heat). Keep in mind, that does NOT mean that you will always be safe with the volume control at that setting, because a higher input at that setting will result in the amplifier putting out more power.

But it does give you a kind of reference point, and if that is not loud enough for you, you either need more sensitive speakers, or speakers that can handle more power, or a more powerful amplifier. Or, if you are one of the many crazy people who literally listen at levels that are so loud that they do permanent damage to their hearing, you should learn to enjoy music at safe levels instead, unless you don't want this to be a lifelong hobby and would like to end your days with a hearing aid and even then not hearing well while using that aid.
 
RaT

RaT

Junior Audioholic
Great site. I found my 1980 KEF 103's there. I still use them regularly. Still enjoy them immensely.



You are in luck. I recently stumbled upon a great site for information on KEF speakers. Here is information about your model, and you can download a brochure and manual and some information about the crossover change:

http://203.85.34.201/html/en/explore/about_kef/museum/1970s/Reference_Series_104/index.html

You also might want to visit:

http://www.hifiloudspeakers.info

That is a site for enthusiasts of KEF speakers, and there are several very knowledgeable people who post there, but I recommend that you read the brochure and manual first (at my first link), which may very well tell you all you want to know. Downloads at that site can sometimes be slow, but remember that patience is a virtue and good things come to those who wait.

KEF has a very good reputation for making really good speakers, and they have had that reputation from before the time of your father's speakers being made. My guess is that they sound pretty good, and you will need to spend a good amount of money to get something better sounding.

With all systems, if you hear distortion, turn down the volume before you damage things.
 
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
Great site. I found my 1980 KEF 103's there. I still use them regularly. Still enjoy them immensely.
Do you have the original 103, or the 103.2 (which came out in 1980)? I have heard great things about the 103.2, and imagine that the 103 is a fine speaker as well.

From looking at old information about KEF speakers from that era, I know why I did not buy any at the time, as they were rather expensive (one must remember inflation and what a dollar was worth back then when thinking about such matters; I also had far less money at my disposal then). But from my little experience with old KEF speakers now, it was money spent for quality.
 
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