Keep Denon AVR-4311CI or upgrade for 2 channel music

[Grunt66]

Need some help from those that are using the 4311CI for 2 channel music listening. I have had the 4311CI since 2012 and used the Audyssey's advanced MultEQ XT32 to setup the system. From day one I was using the 4311CI in pre-amp mode using a Emotive XPA-2 and XPA-3 for amp side of the house. I have since changed the XPA-2 for a Wyred 4 Sound 2 channel amp (ST-1000MKII) for two channel listening several years ago. My main speakers are Mirage OMD-28's and my CD player is a Emotiva ERC-2. I also use a Emotiva DAC (Stealth DC-1) that is connected to my PC when I stream music from iTunes account via toslink cable from my sound-blaster dedicated sound card.

The easiest way to put it is the system has always sounded dull in: Pure Direct and Direct mode. Stereo mode at least to my ears sounds the best.

Here are the settings from the Denon after running Audyssey:
Speakers Front: Full Range
Center: 60hz
Surround: 110Hz

Under 2 channel setting the Denon has the front speakers set to large.

Here are specifications for my Mirage OMD-28's.
Frequency response: 25 Hz - 20 kHz (+/- 3dB)
Room Efficiency: 87 dB
Crossover Point: 550 Hz and 2.5 kHz

I am not using a sub woofer in my system. I let the Denon use the Audyssey program to calibrate the listening environment. Back in November of 2017 I replaced a Onkyo TX-NR5007 with a Pioneer SC-LX901 in our main listening room. While the Onkyo was good for movies it sounded bland compared when listening to music or music concert videos. Once the Pioneer was in place and I let the MCACC Pro calibrate the SC-LX901 it was like we had new speakers. The improvement in sound for both movies and music was night and day compared to the outgoing Onkyo. The speakers in our main room are Mirage OM-5's.

So that I got me thinking is the Audyssey program the culprit since me and the wife both agree the Pioneer using MCACC Pro brought our speakers back to like so to speak.

I remember buying an Onkyo Integra TX-890 (still have it in the closet) 2 channel receiver from Circuit City around 1988 and Infinity SM-152 speakers. We connected a Onkyo Integra TA-2600 cassette player (still have that in the closet as well) for music playback.

I was contemplating buying a Emotive XSP-1 pre amp and adding it to my Denon but after reading a forum post from another member it was considered not a wise thing to do since the forum member had a Marantz receiver.

I am open to any and all suggestions. Thanks in advance.


Living Room: Pioneer Pro-141FD, Pioneer Elite SC-LX901, Mirage OM-5, OM-C2, OM-R2, Sony BDP-S790
Man Cave: Sony 55" XBR-HX950, Denon AVR-4311CI (Using as Pre amp), Wyred 4 Sound ST1000MKII, Emotiva XPA-3, Emotiva ERC-2, Mirage OMD-28, Mirage OMD-C2, OM-R2, Sony PS4 Pro, Xbox One S
Bedroom: Sony XBR-46HX929, Bose 1SR, Sony PS3.

 

[TLS Guy]

Need some help from those that are using the 4311CI for 2 channel music listening. I have had the 4311CI since 2012 and used the Audyssey's advanced MultEQ XT32 to setup the system. From day one I was using the 4311CI in pre-amp mode using a Emotive XPA-2 and XPA-3 for amp side of the house. I have since changed the XPA-2 for a Wyred 4 Sound 2 channel amp (ST-1000MKII) for two channel listening several years ago. My main speakers are Mirage OMD-28's and my CD player is a Emotiva ERC-2. I also use a Emotiva DAC (Stealth DC-1) that is connected to my PC when I stream music from iTunes account via toslink cable from my sound-blaster dedicated sound card.

The easiest way to put it is the system has always sounded dull in: Pure Direct and Direct mode. Stereo mode at least to my ears sounds the best.

Here are the settings from the Denon after running Audyssey:
Speakers Front: Full Range
Center: 60hz
Surround: 110Hz

Under 2 channel setting the Denon has the front speakers set to large.

Here are specifications for my Mirage OMD-28's.
Frequency response: 25 Hz - 20 kHz (+/- 3dB)
Room Efficiency: 87 dB
Crossover Point: 550 Hz and 2.5 kHz

I am not using a sub woofer in my system. I let the Denon use the Audyssey program to calibrate the listening environment. Back in November of 2017 I replaced a Onkyo TX-NR5007 with a Pioneer SC-LX901 in our main listening room. While the Onkyo was good for movies it sounded bland compared when listening to music or music concert videos. Once the Pioneer was in place and I let the MCACC Pro calibrate the SC-LX901 it was like we had new speakers. The improvement in sound for both movies and music was night and day compared to the outgoing Onkyo. The speakers in our main room are Mirage OM-5's.

So that I got me thinking is the Audyssey program the culprit since me and the wife both agree the Pioneer using MCACC Pro brought our speakers back to like so to speak.

I remember buying an Onkyo Integra TX-890 (still have it in the closet) 2 channel receiver from Circuit City around 1988 and Infinity SM-152 speakers. We connected a Onkyo Integra TA-2600 cassette player (still have that in the closet as well) for music playback.

I was contemplating buying a Emotive XSP-1 pre amp and adding it to my Denon but after reading a forum post from another member it was considered not a wise thing to do since the forum member had a Marantz receiver.

I am open to any and all suggestions. Thanks in advance.


Living Room: Pioneer Pro-141FD, Pioneer Elite SC-LX901, Mirage OM-5, OM-C2, OM-R2, Sony BDP-S790
Man Cave: Sony 55" XBR-HX950, Denon AVR-4311CI (Using as Pre amp), Wyred 4 Sound ST1000MKII, Emotiva XPA-3, Emotiva ERC-2, Mirage OMD-28, Mirage OMD-C2, OM-R2, Sony PS4 Pro, Xbox One S
Bedroom: Sony XBR-46HX929, Bose 1SR, Sony PS3.

Do not use Audyssey or any of its add ons, like Dynamic Eq. Audyssey ruins good systems.

 

[lovinthehd]

Not much for Audyssey to do with a 2.0 setup, altho DEQ can be helpful at lower volume levels (but you could use Bypass L/R and still use DEQ). Your speakers are only 83dB sensitive per S&V measurements, min impedance 4.25ohm but no phase angle info, and are rated moderately hard to drive. Even without an external amp I'd think the 4311 would do okay. Hard to know what you're comparing dull to, maybe you have a preference for some dsp rather than not...maybe you should try a different pre-amp and see if that makes a difference.

 

[AcuDefTechGuy]

Denon 4311CI for 2 channel music...the system has always sounded dull in: Pure Direct and Direct mode. Stereo mode at least to my ears sounds the best.

I’ve used the Denon AVR-3312 and X3100 for 2Ch Music, and I gotten awesome sound from speakers like the RBH SX-T2/R, RBH SVT Towers, B&W 802D2 and Philharmonic 3 with the Denon.

The Sound Mode I use is Stereo + Audyssey Bypass L/R + Dynamic EQ, Dynamic Volume is off.

I love Dynamic EQ and absolutely prefer it over Pure Direct mode or any analog separates System I’ve heard. Dynamic EQ seems to make the music sound very dynamic, lively, and exciting, even when I listen to “Yo Yo Ma Plays Ennio Moricone”.

I’ve heard and owned some high-end analog 2Ch systems in my early days - Mark Levinson, Krell, Bryston. They sounded great, but I think Dynamic EQ sounds even better, even with the Denon 3000 series.

So I am confident the Denon 4311 could sound awesome for 2Ch music as well.

I think you need a subwoofer and use Dynamic EQ.

 

[PENG]

So that I got me thinking is the Audyssey program the culprit since me and the wife both agree the Pioneer using MCACC Pro brought our speakers back to like so to speak.

I would respectfully disagree with TLSGuy but do agree Audyssey could be the culprit if not setup correctly. Even for a 2 channels system, for best results you still need to use all 8 positions and follow instructions to the letter. If you run it correctly, there is no need to guess, because it is easy find out if it you prefer it "on" or "off" by simply making the selections on the menu. If Stereo sounds better than pure direct for you then it seems likely Audyssey is actually doing something good for you, assuming you have it "ON". If direct and pure direct it would have been disabled.

Looking at the frequency response of the OM28 I can understand why you prefer Stereo, because Audyssey would have at least attempted to dial down the mid bass to the lower mid range bands.

Fig.2: Mirage OMD-28 pseudo-anechoic response at 15 degrees above (red) and 15 degrees below (blue) the tweeter.
Read more at https://www.soundandvision.com/content/mirage-omd-28-surround-speaker-system-measurements#2dvCk0RzZGoudVCa.99

It is the speakers that are responsible for the dullness, not the amplifiers. Audyssey default to reference, you should try "Audyssey flat", that should brighten things up a little. The pioneer's REQ system used with different speakers in a different room is not a valid reference/comparison.

 

[Grunt66]

I appreciate the input. Since my original post I have done some changing of gear. First I moved the Pioneer SC-LX901 into my room. The sound for music improved over the Denon.

We headed to the local Best Buy Magnolia Design Center. I listened to an Arcam AVR550, Marantz SR7012, Pioneer SC-LX901, and Denon 6400. An Oppo 205 was used to play music and the speakers were B&W 804 D3. All the aforementioned AVR's were placed in direct mode. The following was the order that me and the wife rated the music quality in descending order: Arcam, Pioneer, Marantz, and Denon. No room correction software was installed in any of the aforementioned AVR's.

I purchased the Arcam AVR550 and when it was installed it was like a blanket had been removed from my speakers. A tremendous improvement over the Denon in 2 channel direct mode.

Then I experienced an issue with the installation of the Dirac software. I have posted over in the AVForums since there appears to be more users over in the UK. I have returned the Arcam solely because of the Dirac installation issues.

For whatever reason the Denon is the weak link in my system.

 

[snakeeyes]

Sounds like you found a setup that improved things.
You might also want to try out a sub at some point, just to see if you like it. Rythmik, HSU, and SVS are all good values for subs.

 

[PENG]

I see things like this too many times.

And it's not any one brand.

Most of us would know exactly what to do if it were our own systems.

But trying to figure out someone else's system on the forum is like taking a stab in the dark.

A friend of mine also had the Denon 4311 + EMO amp for his Klipsch speakers (I think RF-83 towers).

Audyssey set his Speaker Channel Levels (all below the 0.0dB level) in a way that it required him to turn the master volume knob up too much.

He felt like the sound was compressed or dull or lifeless.

So I simply told him to 1) make sure Audyssey Volume is off, 2) make sure Audyssey is set to Bypass L/R, 3) make sure Dynamic EQ is set to On (offset zero), and 4) MANUALLY increase all the Speaker Channel Levels up by 3dB or more so that every level was above 0.0dB.

His response?

Wow!

It was like a cloud had been lifted or a blanket had been lifted.

The sound was so Dynamic and Lively.

He couldn't believe it.

I was a genius.

Bottom line - it's usually all in the SETUP of the system and every room/speaker/case is different.

We're just taking a stab in the dark.

He used pure direct to compare so it is not Audyssey, Dirac that lifted the blanket for him. It could just be Placebo, expectation bias at work. We all know the hearsay perpetuated by a few from the old says had indeed put those in such order, i.e. Arcam first, and Denon last, as far as "musical" is concerned. Unless it was done blind, that's the result you are going to get for people who are familiar with those brands, and it is not unusual for some wives to sat what was expected.., those are good wives I suppose.

 

[Grunt66]

So since I returned the Arcam this weekend the Denon was placed back into the system. I did 8 measurements fror Audyssey. Not to beat a dead horse but the sound was dull in direct mode. Then when placed in stereo mode the sound came to life and was a improvement over direct mode. However the sound was too harsh. Playing Audyssey in flat setting mode was dull but an improvement over direct mode.

Presently I am bypassing the Denon and my Emotiva Stealth DC-1 dac is being used as a pre amp. What a difference in sound quality for the better over the Denon.

When we were at Best Buy listening to different AVR's my wife was in another part of the store. I asked the salesman to play the different AVR's ( Arcam, Pioneer, Marantz, Denon). My wife did not know which AVR's were playing when I asked her to rate them for sound quality. As listed in my above post the Arcam was first and the Denon was in last place. I concurred with her findings.

I have tried numerous Audyssey adjustments with the Denon 4311 and either it is to dull sounding or overly harsh. It is interesting that the Emotiva dac sounds great since I was sending the CD / Tidal streaming into it and then the DAC was connected to CD analog inputs of the Denon.

I am going to take a shot in the dark with my basic understanding why I think this happening. I have a 2008 Toyota Tacoma double cab that I installed a complete stereo system. This was done in 2009 with the following components: Head unit: Eclipse CD7200MKII (passive head unit). AMP: JL Audio HD900/5, Front speakers: Hybrid Audio Technologies (HAT) Clarus 6.5 components, Rear speakers: HAT Clarus 6.5 mid range, Sub woofer: JL Audio slim sub 13". In our other cars the BMW has Harman Kardon system and wifes VW has the Dynaudio system. When listening to Sirius radio in the BMW and VW it does not sound bad, however when played in my Tacoma there is a difference in quality for the worse. It was explained to me that when using higher quality audio equipment it will bring out the worst and best in the audio signal.