Justification for Amplification

[Buckeyefan 1]

I think this topic has been toyed with on other threads, but with many interruptions, going off on tangents. I'll state a few ideas and hopefully people will add their two cents for or against these thoughts. Feel free to pick one and tear it apart.

1) Why are the better speakers usually power hungry pigs?
2) Can't one manufacture a tower at 8 ohms and 98dB with several drivers to compete with the best, less sensitive speakers (< 90 dB)? Is this only true with horn loaded speakers, and do horns take them out of the ballgame?
3) What makes an inefficient speaker better than an efficient one?
4) Why would anyone want to blow a ton of watts into inefficient speakers at low volumes? Would it be for the purpose of hearing nuances? (that dreaded Stereophile word)
5) Are suspension speakers more accurate than ported? If so, do they really need more power? How much more?
6) Will a midrange and tweeter benefit from huge current?
7) Is a 7 channel power amp necessary for a surround system, or will a beefy 2 channel amp suffice - assuming one is using a mid to high end receiver?

 

[jaxvon]

1. Probably because the speaker designers' first goal is sound quality and fidelity, then appearance, and compatability/ease of use/efficiency way last.

2. I've never seen a non-horn speaker (aside from the Zu, which is arguably not as transparent as non-horns as well) with sensitivity above the low nineties. Even with a ton of drivers. And yes, horns do color the sound, so in the pursuit of ultimate fidelity, they're out of the running.

3. I don't know if an inefficient speaker is better than an efficient one (only your ears can decide), but very often, they end up being better for the reasons stated in #1.

4. Because not everyone wants to blast their speakers to hear their music.

5. Generally, they are held as such. Measurements confirm this. They do need more power, as they don't get the dB output boost that a port or ports would yield.

6. Midrange, perhaps, tweeter no. But everything benefits from CLEAN current. There's a lot to be said for having headroom, especially with speakers that have nasty impedance drops and when one listens to music with a lot of dynamics that demand heavy loads on the amplifiers. Cheap amps crap out and clip, cooking tweeters.

 

[MacManNM]

I think this topic has been toyed with on other threads, but with many interruptions, going off on tangents. I'll state a few ideas and hopefully people will add their two cents for or against these thoughts. Feel free to pick one and tear it apart.

Why are the better speakers usually power hungry pigs?

Because these pigs move with greater accuracy.

Can't one manufacture a tower at 8 ohms and 98dB with several drivers to compete with the best, less sensitive speakers (< 90 dB)? Is this only true with horn loaded speakers, and do horns take them out of the ballgame?

No and maybe

Are suspension speakers more accurate than ported? If so, do they really need more power? How much more?

Hell yes. IMO 4x. In order to get the extended freq response something is sacrificed; with a vented system the sacrifice is sound for power.

Will a midrange and tweeter benefit from huge current?

no

 

[brian32672]

horns do color the sound, so in the pursuit of ultimate fidelity, they're out of the running.

Is this a biased opinion or a fact... Not talking about coloring the sound. Talking about pursuit of ultimate fidelity...

What if I and others find horns so much more to our liking that we feel we have found that ultimate bliss????

Are we idiots?????????????? Who do not have golden ears?????

EDIT:: BTW jaxvon, much nicer avatar IMO. Hey Buck could you stick to one for at least a week. J/K....

 

[brian32672]

Hell yes. IMO 4x. In order to get the extended freq response something is sacrificed; with a vented system the sacrifice is sound for power.

I have to agree with Mac on this. There is much more accuracy with a sealed and properly tuned driver.

 

[mtrycrafts]

1) Why are the better speakers usually power hungry pigs?

Well, this is one of those interpretations that may not be accurate?

Great speaker designers would disagree

2) Can't one manufacture a tower at 8 ohms and 98dB with several drivers to compete with the best, less sensitive speakers (< 90 dB)? Is this only true with horn loaded speakers, and do horns take them out of the ballgame?

If you want real answers, best to ask some of those speaker builders. Manty think theirs is the best approach, so you will have a divergent answer


3) What makes an inefficient speaker better than an efficient one?

That is only an opinion?


4) Why would anyone want to blow a ton of watts into inefficient speakers at low volumes? Would it be for the purpose of hearing nuances? (that dreaded Stereophile word)

At low volumes? where the noise floor of the room will mask the nuances you seek?

5) Are suspension speakers more accurate than ported? If so, do they really need more power? How much more?

Need expert testimony here too.

6) Will a midrange and tweeter benefit from huge current?

Not anymore than it needs from the input music signal.


7) Is a 7 channel power amp necessary for a surround system, or will a beefy 2 channel amp suffice - assuming one is using a mid to high end receiver?

Not sure I understand this Q. Are you asking about 2 channel music vs 7?

 

[MacManNM]

1) Why are the better speakers usually power hungry pigs?

Well, this is one of those interpretations that may not be accurate?

Great speaker designers would disagree

2) Can't one manufacture a tower at 8 ohms and 98dB with several drivers to compete with the best, less sensitive speakers (< 90 dB)? Is this only true with horn loaded speakers, and do horns take them out of the ballgame?

If you want real answers, best to ask some of those speaker builders. Manty think theirs is the best approach, so you will have a divergent answer


3) What makes an inefficient speaker better than an efficient one?

That is only an opinion?


4) Why would anyone want to blow a ton of watts into inefficient speakers at low volumes? Would it be for the purpose of hearing nuances? (that dreaded Stereophile word)

At low volumes? where the noise floor of the room will mask the nuances you seek?

5) Are suspension speakers more accurate than ported? If so, do they really need more power? How much more?

Need expert testimony here too.

6) Will a midrange and tweeter benefit from huge current?

Not anymore than it needs from the input music signal.


7) Is a 7 channel power amp necessary for a surround system, or will a beefy 2 channel amp suffice - assuming one is using a mid to high end receiver?

Not sure I understand this Q. Are you asking about 2 channel music vs 7?

This thread is subjective, play nice.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Mtry,
I value your personal opinion over published papers. I think you have more accumulated knowledge than many who write these papers, and should speak up. I just want people's own opinions and experience here, whether it be lengthy or short. I doubt anyone will "call you out" if you answer honestly based on your previous knowledge.

7) Is a 7 channel power amp necessary for a surround system, or will a beefy 2 channel amp suffice - assuming one is using a mid to high end receiver?

Not sure I understand this Q. Are you asking about 2 channel music vs 7?

Sorry, let me clarify. 7 channel music or DD/DTS movies was what I was getting at. Basically, allowing the receiver's other channels to run all but the fronts and subwoofer.

 

[Sleestack]

My candidate for an exception to 1,2 and 3. I just picked up a pair of these Epiphany 12-12s (speakers on the outside). With a sensitivity rating of 96db, they can be driven to ear splitting levels with a 20 watt tube amp.

In any case, one of the finest speakers I have ever heard. I'm sure others would disagree. (Just in case you are wondering, Merlin TSM-MXs are only stacked on the Onix Ref.3s b/c they are waiting for stands.)

 

[PENG]

6) Two things dictate how much current the speaker driver is going to draw, namely voltage & impedance. If you crank the volume up, output voltage increases, sending more current into the driver. If the impedance of the speaker dips low, it draws more current from the output stage of the amp. If you crank the volume up high when the speaker impedance dips low at certain frequencies, you get even higher, or "huge" current, provided the amp can sustain the voltage required at that current level. So mid range could draw some serious current, depending on its impedance characteristics and how loud you want it to sound.

This is just theory, I am not sure about the actual impedance characteristics (ohms vs frequencies) of typical, or specialty mid range drivers. Hopefully we'll hear from experts in this field.

 

[jaxvon]

Is this a biased opinion or a fact... Not talking about coloring the sound. Talking about pursuit of ultimate fidelity...

What if I and others find horns so much more to our liking that we feel we have found that ultimate bliss????

Are we idiots?????????????? Who do not have golden ears?????

EDIT:: BTW jaxvon, much nicer avatar IMO. Hey Buck could you stick to one for at least a week. J/K....

I'll reference Wikipedia for this one:

Fidelity: Noun. Fidelity is a notion, that at its most abstract level implies a truthful connection to a source. Its original meaning dealt with loyalty and attentiveness to one's duty to a lord or a king, in a broader sense than the related concept of fealty. Both derive from the Latin word fidelitas, meaning "faithfulness."

When I speak of "Ultimate Fidelity", I'm talking about the most truth to the source. Horns color the sound more than non-horn speakers, thus they technically have lower fidelity (when speaking of a normal, dynamic, non-horn design that is low in distortion and has good response). I'm not talking about what sounds better, as I already mentioned in my previous post that "sounds good" is completely a personal decision.

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

Sleestack,

Those are some impressive 12-12's. I'm not familiar with the company, other than what I've read on the net. What size are the midranges? Are those all ribbons? How usable is the bass down to 35hz? Is there a frequency gap from the sub to the towers? I find it hard to believe a 20 watt amp would drive those to the levels you say - but what do I know. The drivers must either be wired in series or parallel, which would either hellbend the resistance way up or down, right? I bet the imaging is spectacular.

Specifications
Frequency Response - 35Hz - 20k
Impedance - 8 ohms
Sensitivity (1w,1m) - 95dB
Weight - 162 Lbs
HWD(in inches) - 69 x 11.25 x 16.5
Base dimensions - (in inches) 19.5 x 20.5
Minimum Wattage - 20 Watts

 

[STRONGBADF1]

I think this topic has been toyed with on other threads, but with many interruptions, going off on tangents. I'll state a few ideas and hopefully people will add their two cents for or against these thoughts. Feel free to pick one and tear it apart.

1) Why are the better speakers usually power hungry pigs?
2) Can't one manufacture a tower at 8 ohms and 98dB with several drivers to compete with the best, less sensitive speakers (< 90 dB)? Is this only true with horn loaded speakers, and do horns take them out of the ballgame?
3) What makes an inefficient speaker better than an efficient one?
4) Why would anyone want to blow a ton of watts into inefficient speakers at low volumes? Would it be for the purpose of hearing nuances? (that dreaded Stereophile word)
5) Are suspension speakers more accurate than ported? If so, do they really need more power? How much more?
6) Will a midrange and tweeter benefit from huge current?
7) Is a 7 channel power amp necessary for a surround system, or will a beefy 2 channel amp suffice - assuming one is using a mid to high end receiver?

Buckeye, since you just hijacked your own thread....

Sleestack,

Those are some impressive 12-12's. I'm not familiar with the company, other than what I've read on the net. What size are the midranges? Are those all ribbons? How usable is the bass down to 35hz? Is there a frequency gap from the sub to the towers? I find it hard to believe a 20 watt amp would drive those to the levels you say - but what do I know. The drivers must either be wired in series or parallel, which would either hellbend the resistance way up or down, right? I bet the imaging is spectacular.

Specifications
Frequency Response - 35Hz - 20k
Impedance - 8 ohms
Sensitivity (1w,1m) - 95dB
Weight - 162 Lbs
HWD(in inches) - 69 x 11.25 x 16.5
Base dimensions - (in inches) 19.5 x 20.5
Minimum Wattage - 20 Watts

Very impressive looking speakers! I would like to know about the bass response also.


about question #7 - I thought bigger (more) is always better !!!

SBF1

 

[Sleestack]

Haven't had enough time to fully tweek the bass setup, but there is much more bass in these speakers than I expected. I'll be using a TACT RCS 2.2x to properly set the crossovers, but thus far, I am wondering if I even need to use a sub with the 12-12s. That is to say, the bass is quite strong down to 35hz, however, I'll probably set the crossover between 40 and 50 when I set the TACT.

Imaging and soundstage are spectacular. I'll give more detailed impressions after I spend some quality time with the speakers.

These speakers are indeed easy to drive. When I spoke to the owner of Epiphany, he said he wanted to these speakers to be able to be driven by an iPod. That might be a bit of an exaggeration, but a 20 wpc EAR V20 is defintely doing the job.

Sleestack,

Those are some impressive 12-12's. I'm not familiar with the company, other than what I've read on the net. What size are the midranges? Are those all ribbons? How usable is the bass down to 35hz? Is there a frequency gap from the sub to the towers? I find it hard to believe a 20 watt amp would drive those to the levels you say - but what do I know. The drivers must either be wired in series or parallel, which would either hellbend the resistance way up or down, right? I bet the imaging is spectacular.

Specifications
Frequency Response - 35Hz - 20k
Impedance - 8 ohms
Sensitivity (1w,1m) - 95dB
Weight - 162 Lbs
HWD(in inches) - 69 x 11.25 x 16.5
Base dimensions - (in inches) 19.5 x 20.5
Minimum Wattage - 20 Watts

 

[MacManNM]

Ok, one exception, I'm still thinking those things need a bass cabinet. I don't think there a lot of great loudspeakes out there that you don't have to pour a ton of watts into.

As for #7. Multi chan power amps are just as useless as receivers. For surround, grab yourself a nice hefty 2ch or a pair of blocks, and your ready to go. Other than the center, the rest of the speakers aren't drawing squat.

 

[Privateer]

As for #7. Multi chan power amps are just as useless as receivers. For surround, grab yourself a nice hefty 2ch or a pair of blocks, and your ready to go. Other than the center, the rest of the speakers aren't drawing squat.

That all depends what you are running for surrounds.

 

[mtrycrafts]

Mtry,
I value your personal opinion over published papers. I think you have more accumulated knowledge than many who write these papers, and should speak up. I just want people's own opinions and experience here, whether it be lengthy or short. I doubt anyone will "call you out" if you answer honestly based on your previous knowledge.




Sorry, let me clarify. 7 channel music or DD/DTS movies was what I was getting at. Basically, allowing the receiver's other channels to run all but the fronts and subwoofer.

Wasn't sure how you meant this
but with many interruptions, going off on tangents.

I thought maybe a serious response is what you were seeking

Its hard for me to be subjective as I am not too critical in that respect. My boundary is rather wide, except on the type of music I would enjoy for any period of time. So I will just butt out

 

[mtrycrafts]

6) Two things dictate how much current the speaker driver is going to draw, namely voltage & impedance. If you crank the volume up, output voltage increases, sending more current into the driver. If the impedance of the speaker dips low, it draws more current from the output stage of the amp. If you crank the volume up high when the speaker impedance dips low at certain frequencies, you get even higher, or "huge" current, provided the amp can sustain the voltage required at that current level. So mid range could draw some serious current, depending on its impedance characteristics and how loud you want it to sound.

This is just theory, I am not sure about the actual impedance characteristics (ohms vs frequencies) of typical, or specialty mid range drivers. Hopefully we'll hear from experts in this field.

But, but, but, is this subjective?

 

[Mudcat]

You want amps

Got six of them. Four 75 wpc and two 150 wpc Alesis.


Check em out here.
http://forums.audioholics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2380

I've recently replace some of the speakers listed with Criterion towers for the surrounds. Still using the old dBX Soundfield V's and Sapphires for the fronts. Move the Mirage Omni 7's upstairs, but kept the Mirage center with this system..

Result is despite the wide range of effeciencies, I can rattle the upstairs windows at very low power levels, with very clean sound.