Just one piece left.

J

jayph

Enthusiast
First post, found this site last night google searching and liked the amount of replies and knowledge that seemed to be present. Look forward to learning and contributing when I can.

I have finally purchased all my gear and Iam ready to move from my marantz Sr5004 integrated amp to separates. Now I loved the sound and features so I stuck with marantz for my processor. All I have left to purchase is a power amp. I was sold on emotiva after a quick read and the price point but some deeper digging proved maybe I should look elsewhere. I was looking at a sunfire amp but then read that there noisy?

My problem is if you look hard enough you can find bad stuff about anything and I will not be able to demo anything other than what friends have (emotiva and sunfire [old model from when bob was still there])

These are my pieces so far
Samsung 60" 7100 stainless finish
LG 3d blu ray (just waiting till 4k gets cheaper then new tv and player will be added)
Marantz AV7701
Monster HDP-1800
Front L/R - Paradigm monitor 9
Front C - Paradigm CC-290
Rear side - Paradigm ADP-390
Rear back-Paradigm ADP-390
Sub - Klipsch SW-112 ( runing a pair of them)

This set up only sees movies and I would really like a 200w per channel @ 8ohm load. A single device would be preferred but would look at a 5/2 set up. My brain is all fuzzy after two days of searching on google and this site. I may very well be more confused now than when I started my search. My budget is $2000 I could go higher if it meant really improving my amp but would also consider lower if the quality is there.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts and help.

Jason
 
M

mister wiggles

Audioholic Intern
Might be stating the obvious here, but a 5/2 setup would allow you more flexibility should you choose to listen to music in a 2-channel configuration. Emotiva XPA-5 or Rotel 1075/1095 would be a good place to start for the center and surrounds. That would allow you a healthy budget for the 2 channel amp.

Personally, I don't like to put all my eggs in one basket. Having a 7 channel amp go out would be quite devastating. On top of that, the unit would require a massive power supply to properly drive all channels. Bigger power supply = bigger amp = heavy.
 
J

jayph

Enthusiast
Might be stating the obvious here, but a 5/2 setup would allow you more flexibility should you choose to listen to music in a 2-channel configuration. Emotiva XPA-5 or Rotel 1075/1095 would be a good place to start for the center and surrounds. That would allow you a healthy budget for the 2 channel amp.
Thanks for the post. I should of elaborated this is a dedicated theatre room in my home I have a 2 channel system located in another room for listening to music. this will only see movies. I found a christmas deal on an ATI AT2007 thats just outside my budget and could likely spring for it. aswell as the Outlaw 7700 that is right at my budget after shipping. The outlaw is built by ATI but seems to use slightly different components. The ATI has 2 years extra warranty.
 
J

jayph

Enthusiast
Personally, I don't like to put all my eggs in one basket. Having a 7 channel amp go out would be quite devastating. On top of that, the unit would require a massive power supply to properly drive all channels. Bigger power supply = bigger amp = heavy.
That makes sense. But I have two 5.1 integrated receivers to get me by if that were to happen (An integra and the Marantz.) Weight isn't a concern as It will be placed on a shelf in the equipment room and most likely sit there till replaced. I appreciate your help and you have given me somethings to consider.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Sounds like you understand that you would "like" 200W, but the reality is you likely don't need 200W for that setup. Either the ATI or the Outlaw would be good choices though, and when you replace the speakers down the road, those will still handle most things thrown at them with no problem. IMO, you could likely get away with a 7125 just as easily though, especially if you are crossing the 9s to the subs. Subs would be next on my list to replace :) Have you bumped up against SPL limitations with the current receivers in this room (have you already listened to this setup?)?
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
When you go for a power amp 200 watts to me is just entry level. Get the best amp you can afford. 200 watts is not that much power. There is no such thing as overkill when it comes to power amps. Don't let any one tell you that you don't need it, yes you do. I am playing around with an amp that puts out 150 watts right now and it sounds like crap to the 500 watt amps.
 
Last edited:
J

jayph

Enthusiast
Sounds like you understand that you would "like" 200W, but the reality is you likely don't need 200W for that setup. Either the ATI or the Outlaw would be good choices though, and when you replace the speakers down the road, those will still handle most things thrown at them with no problem. IMO, you could likely get away with a 7125 just as easily though, especially if you are crossing the 9s to the subs. Subs would be next on my list to replace :) Have you bumped up against SPL limitations with the current receivers in this room (have you already listened to this setup?)?
Yes thats correct with concerns to the power. Not sure what you mean with the crossing the 9's to the subs? Most people that listen the the theatre in the current set up love the sound and level of bass the subs offer. They will be here for a long time as they are both under 2 years old. I have not listened to the 7.2 set up but own everything listed (waiting for delivery on the processor) The second sub and one set of surrounds are still in the boxes and everything else is used in a 5.1 set up with the marantz sr5004.

The reason for going separates and looking for more power is after I demoed my room to a fellow that has an lot invested in the business. he said I would benefit the most in upgrade from more power. I asked what I would need to make mine sound more like his and that was the answer. He recommended just using the pre outs off my current receiver and just going with the amp for now but I wanted to upgrade to a 3d capable receiver and I get pretty good prices for marantz as a close friend ownes 40% of an audio store. After I get everything hooked up he will also be doing my panels and bass trap if required and helping to tune my room.

back to the sub. I know the sw-112 is not anywhere near high end but In my room they just work awesome and I am scared what I would have to spend for an upgrade. I actually sold a definitive technology trinity to go with the dual sw-112 set up. For my room and ears i just preferred what they offered plus it opened up some extra funds for other components. The trinity was an amazing sub and it is quite possible that the rest of the system just couldn't keep up and thats why I prefer the sw-112?

I found a few reviews on the sherbourn 7-350 and had my card ready to order only to then find out that they folded into emotiva and are no longer available new.
 
Last edited:
J

jayph

Enthusiast
When you go for a power amp 200 watts to me is just entry level. Get the best amp you can afford. 200 watts is not that much power. There is no such thing as overkill when it comes to power amps. Don't let any one tell you that you don't need it, yes you do. I am playing around with an amp that puts out 150 watts right now and it sounds like crap to the 500 watt amps.
200 gives me over double what I got now which should be a nice upgrade plus I just figured that I could afford a higher quality 200 watt amp compared to a lower quality 400 watt amp maybe Iam wrong? I would love the sunfire 400 watt per channel amp in my buddys theatre but it's out of budget. Iam not an audiophile and have no intentions of picking my theatre apart and constantly trying to upgrade to improve. Once this is all set up it will only likely see replacements as compenets wear out or break. I like my theatre now just trying to push it into the next level and was let to believe going separates and adding better and more power would do that. Plus I wanted to be 7 channels for blu rays going forward. Thanks for your thoughts and taking the time to post.
 
Last edited:
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Classic Audio Parts has the ATI amps on sale @ 15% off, so the AT1807 is $1657.50 + S/H.

ATI AT1807 Seven Channel x 180 Watt Amplifier - B-Stock (120V) - Amplifiers

It is rated @ 180W x 7Ch, but into the typical 1% THD, it will output at least 200WPC into 8 ohms.

7 YR warranty parts + labor.

When HTM reviewed the Revel Ultima2 system (Salon2, Voice2, Gem2) they used a 150WPC ATI amp and the sound was pristine and was never lacking in any way.

So I recommend the AT1807.

And in case you don't know yet, ATI makes some amps for the likes of Mark Levinson, Lexicon, JBL Synthesis, Cary Audio, B&K, Theta Digital, and Outlaw. ;)
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
200 gives me over double what I got now which should be a nice upgrade plus I just figured that I could afford a higher quality 200 watt amp compared to a lower quality 400 watt amp maybe Iam wrong? I would love the sunfire 400 watt per channel amp in my buddys theatre but it's out of budget. Iam not an audiophile and have no intentions of picking my theatre apart and constantly trying to upgrade to improve. Once this is all set up it will only likely see replacements as compenets wear out or break. I like my theatre now just trying to push it into the next level and was let to believe going separates and adding better and more power would do that. Plus I wanted to be 7 channels for blu rays going forward. Thanks for you thoughts and taking the time to post.
You can also check out the used market. I just sold 2 subs and a center. I sub cost $2250.00 sold for $500.00, the other sub was $1650.00 sold for $200.00, center was 1k sold for $300.00 and these where all in mint condition. There are good deals around and there is nothing wrong with preowned equipment, just a thought. If new I would go with ATI, heard nothing but good things about them, plus I like Made in the USA.
 
Last edited:
Pyrrho

Pyrrho

Audioholic Ninja
...

The reason for going separates and looking for more power is after I demoed my room to a fellow that has an lot invested in the business. he said I would benefit the most in upgrade from more power. ...

That is almost never the case. Usually, what will benefit the sound the most is an upgrade in speakers (which includes subwoofers). (Or correcting problems with room acoustics.)

One thing to remember is that in order to get just a 3dB increase in sound, you have to double the power. Since most AV receivers these days give you relative volume numbers in dB, you can use yours to see how little difference a doubling of power is. Turn it from -23dB to -20dB, and it will be putting out twice the power it was before you turned the volume control (assuming, of course, that one does not exceed the capabilities of the amplifier at any time, this will be true for any two settings of the volume control that are 3dB apart).


From my own experience, I went from a receiver that retailed for about $600 to one that retailed for about $1700 (because I wanted more, and newer, features), that was capable of putting out about twice the power of the cheaper receiver that it replaced. But since the cheaper receiver was able to drive my speakers to levels I found painful with crystal clarity, the extra power was completely useless in my case. In fact, unless I engaged a feature that affected the sound, my system sounded the same with either receiver. And I have some nice speakers, retailing for well over $6000. Now, if my speakers were a difficult load or terribly inefficient, then the extra power might have been useful. But even in such a case, a doubling of power only gives a 3dB increase in volume, nothing more.
 
J

jayph

Enthusiast
That is almost never the case. Usually, what will benefit the sound the most is an upgrade in speakers (which includes subwoofers). (Or correcting problems with room acoustics.)

One thing to remember is that in order to get just a 3dB increase in sound, you have to double the power. Since most AV receivers these days give you relative volume numbers in dB, you can use yours to see how little difference a doubling of power is. Turn it from -23dB to -20dB, and it will be putting out twice the power it was before you turned the volume control (assuming, of course, that one does not exceed the capabilities of the amplifier at any time, this will be true for any two settings of the volume control that are 3dB apart).


From my own experience, I went from a receiver that retailed for about $600 to one that retailed for about $1700 (because I wanted more, and newer, features), that was capable of putting out about twice the power of the cheaper receiver that it replaced. But since the cheaper receiver was able to drive my speakers to levels I found painful with crystal clarity, the extra power was completely useless in my case. In fact, unless I engaged a feature that affected the sound, my system sounded the same with either receiver. And I have some nice speakers, retailing for well over $6000. Now, if my speakers were a difficult load or terribly inefficient, then the extra power might have been useful. But even in such a case, a doubling of power only gives a 3dB increase in volume, nothing more.

So if I understand you correctly (this might come off as being rude or attacking but I assure you Iam not) If Iam not willing to upgrade any of my speakers ( I really am happy with them) that I would have the same listening enjoyment going with the Marantz sr7007 instead of the AV7701 and a separate power amp when it comes to movies? Cause if that is true I can cancel my order for the AV7701 and just get the SR7007 and save the $2000 or so on an AMP?

The theatre I really enjoy and Iam trying to reproduce doesn't have speakers much better than mine maybe worse with A test on the same processor and amp. His is so clear and enveloping I get lost in the movie and hear everything that Iam suppose to. Mine right now is enjoyable but not on the same level. The only difference between the two (taking the room out of it) is that he runs separates and more power. I know basics but not much outside that. Is it possible his room is just that much better designed ( he does have panels in certain spots and a bass trap ) My system is currently in my regular family room as the theatre is just being finished up with the final walls and drywall.

If it helps my new room is 11'2" wide and 16' long it is a drop ceiling roof standard height. insulated drywall all four walls with a carpeted cement floor. there is a open walkthrough in the rear and two doors on the one wall no windows. This is a private theatre for me and the wife and the only furniture in the room will be for the equipment and two recliners in the sweet spot. I have not listened to anything in this room obviously but wanted to have everything here and ready when it's finished.

Edit: my setup at volume 0 is about the same level as his at -15 and when he takes his to 0 WOW. Mine at zero feels uncomfortable and don't think I could watch a whole movie there. Not distorted or bad but I guess muddied together (if that makes sense) where his just sounds right voices and conversation is crisp. gun shots feel like an actual gun going off in the room ect. hard to explain when I am no expert.
 
Last edited:
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
If Iam not willing to upgrade any of my speakers ( I really am happy with them) that I would have the same listening enjoyment going with the Marantz sr7007 instead of the AV7701 and a separate power amp when it comes to movies? Cause if that is true I can cancel my order for the AV7701 and just get the SR7007 and save the $2000 or so on an AMP?
Based on my experience, yes, I would agree with that for both movies and music.

Getting "separates" doesn't really improve the sound just because it is "separates". And unless you really need more power, getting a separate power amp will not improve the sound.

For example, I love the feature of Audyssey Dynamic EQ for my subwoofers. So I think a $1,000 AVR like the Denon X4000 will sound better than a $10,000 pre-pro that does NOT have Dynamic EQ.

IMO, in Direct Mode/Pure Direct Mode, AVRs will measure similar to pre-pros and they will sound similar pre-pros.

That is my opinion.

It's quite okay for others to disagree. :D
 
Last edited:
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I don't disagree with Walter, power IS a good thing, but there is a point at which you are no longer adding any benefit at all. Having more than you need is definitely not an issue, but its also like having 1000HP in a Miata. You literally won't use more than a fraction of it. IMO 200W is about the sweet spot, so to speak, rather than the entry level point, but obviously depends on your sysetm (room size, listening habits, speakers, etc...).

I also agree with Pyrrho, adding power won't change your sound nearly as much as speakers. Since you are happy with the speakers, the only thing more power is going to add is SPL = you can turn it up louder with it remaining clear. It does seem like you are looking for more power than a typical AVR. Watts aren't exactly all the same though. 125W from an Outlaw amp is not the same 125W you will get from a typical AVR :) That said, the 9s can likely handle plenty of power, so 200W should be good. When I said crossed to the sub, even with the 9s being big, you are wasting power if you run them full range; bass is what subs are for so let them do the heavy lifting. My room is quite large (~25x30 high vaulted celings) and with 200W I can literally shake the walls. They aren't big speakers either :) Click on My HT in my sig.

To the subs, no offense intended, but you wouldn't need to spend that much to improve on them. AH reviewed the SW115 and gave it a positive review, so I'd guess these are decent too, but I'd still call them the weak link in the setup and would put more into quality subs than going overkill with the amp (like 500W).

Room acoustics is another factor for sure. YES, his room being treated can make a significant difference in how things sound. Getting yours properly setup and doing a few minor treatments should also get you very good results though. Dual subs need far more specific calibration than a single one otherwise you can end up with them fighting each other. Running the mains large with two subs will also potentially degrade the sound.
 
Last edited:
J

jayph

Enthusiast
I don't disagree with Walter, power IS a good thing, but there is a point at which you are no longer adding any benefit at all. Having more than you need is definitely not an issue, but its also like having 1000HP in a Miata. You literally won't use more than a fraction of it. IMO 200W is about the sweet spot, so to speak, rather than the entry level point, but obviously depends on your sysetm (room size, listening habits, speakers, etc...).

I also agree with Pyrrho, adding power won't change your sound nearly as much as speakers. Since you are happy with the speakers, the only thing more power is going to add is SPL = you can turn it up louder with it remaining clear. It does seem like you are looking for more power than a typical AVR. Watts aren't exactly all the same though. 125W from an Outlaw amp is not the same 125W you will get from a typical AVR :) That said, the 9s can likely handle plenty of power, so 200W should be good. When I said crossed to the sub, even with the 9s being big, you are wasting power if you run them full range; bass is what subs are for so let them do the heavy lifting. My room is quite large (~25x30 high vaulted celings) and with 200W I can literally shake the walls. They aren't big speakers either :) Click on My HT in my sig.

To the subs, no offense intended, but you wouldn't need to spend that much to improve on them. AH reviewed the SW115 and gave it a positive review, so I'd guess these are decent too, but I'd still call them the weak link in the setup and would put more into quality subs than going overkill with the amp (like 500W).

Room acoustics is another factor for sure. YES, his room being treated can make a significant difference in how things sound. Getting yours properly setup and doing a few minor treatments should also get you very good results though. Dual subs need far more specific calibration than a single one otherwise you can end up with them fighting each other. Running the mains large with two subs will also potentially degrade the sound.
So if I were spend around $800 on a sub and went to single not two what would I be looking at size and model wise? I can't afford another trinity with what I have spent already on the room. I would be able to return the one SW 112 as it's in the box still. I could move the other one to the garage as I only have two polk bookshelf right now out there.

the one set of ADP 390, one klipsch sw 112, and the av7701 are new in box and are returnable. I just figured matching the speakers was a good idea for sound. and I really like the sound of marantz so I stuck with them. I am open to any suggestions as I want to do this once and just enjoy movies. I don't want buyers remorse and be shopping again.
 
J

jayph

Enthusiast
Based on my experience, yes, I would agree with that for both movies and music.

Getting "separates" doesn't really improve the sound just because it is "separates". And unless you really need more power, getting a separate power amp will not improve the sound.

For example, I love the feature of Audyssey Dynamic EQ for my subwoofers. So I think a $1,000 AVR like the Denon X4000 will sound better than a $10,000 pre-pro that does NOT have Dynamic EQ.

IMO, in Direct Mode/Pure Direct Mode, AVRs will measure similar to pre-pros and they will sound similar pre-pros.

That is my opinion.

It's quite okay for others to disagree. :D
I appreciate you taking the time to post your opinion but you have opened a can of worms now and my head is starting to hurt again. (said in jest)
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
Marantz fan here as well so I don't see a problem sticking with them, but I would also say along the lines of what ADTG is saying, that the 7007 with an amp will probably give you about the same performance. I went from an older Marantz 8300 (serving as pre/pro) to my Emotiva and the difference is minimal aside from features; I only upgraded because the display went out on the Marantz and it didn't have HDMI. I've owned 5 or 6 Marantz AVRs and have been pleased with all of them (I still have my PM7200 class A integrated :) )

Sub:

VTF-3 MK4 Subwoofer or just above your price the 15 is the way I'd go: VTF-15H Subwoofer

The XV or XS PSA subs would likely do well in this room also (V = vented, S = sealed). For HT, you may prefer vented, though the HSUs can be tuned for different modes based on your preference.

http://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/power-x/products/xv15

http://www.powersoundaudio.com/collections/power-x/products/xs15
 
Last edited:
J

jayph

Enthusiast
Marantz fan here as well so I don't see a problem sticking with them, but I would also say along the lines of what ADTG is saying, that the 7007 with an amp will probably give you about the same performance. I went from an older Marantz 8300 (serving as pre/pro) to my Emotiva and the difference is minimal aside from features; I only upgraded because the display went out on the Marantz and it didn't have HDMI. I've owned 5 or 6 Marantz AVRs and have been pleased with all of them (I still have my PM7200 class A integrated :) )

Sub:

VTF-3 MK4 Subwoofer or just above your price the 15 is the way I'd go: VTF-15H Subwoofer

The XV or XS PSA subs would likely do well in this room also (V = vented, S = sealed). For HT, you may prefer vented, though the HSUs can be tuned for different modes based on your preference.

POWER SOUND AUDIO — XV15 Home Audio Subwoofer

POWER SOUND AUDIO — XS15 Home Audio Subwoofer
I like the look of the vtf-15H subwoofer. The little bit on tuning I read sounds like a cool feature. I seen HSU mentioned a bunch I'm my searches so I guess there quite popular. I am having a hard time wrapping my head around that one sub will play louder and cleaner than the two I have now. But the price to feature ratio I can deal with.

Thanks for the links.
 
j_garcia

j_garcia

Audioholic Jedi
I like the look of the vtf-15H subwoofer. The little bit on tuning I read sounds like a cool feature. I seen HSU mentioned a bunch I'm my searches so I guess there quite popular. I am having a hard time wrapping my head around that one sub will play louder and cleaner than the two I have now. But the price to feature ratio I can deal with.

Thanks for the links.
Understood, but it is is relatively simple: there is no middle man (store) to mark the price up since they sell direct to you. So what you're paying for and get is more sub for your money. Trust me, once you've heard one of them, it will be crystal clear :)
 
walter duque

walter duque

Audioholic Samurai
[B said:
j_garcia[/B];1003796]I don't disagree with Walter, power IS a good thing, but there is a point at which you are no longer adding any benefit at all. Having more than you need is definitely not an issue, but its also like having 1000HP in a Miata. You literally won't use more than a fraction of it. IMO 200W is about the sweet spot, so to speak, rather than the entry level point, but obviously depends on your sysetm (room size, listening habits, speakers, etc...).
This is where I get a little confused You literally won't use more than a fraction of it. My amps put out 350 watts into 8 ohms and 500 watts into 4 ohms with 3.5 db of head room. My safe zone is +3 db (I can play at the level all day long), but when I take it up to +5 or +6 db my clipping indicators start flashing a little. If I am only using a fraction of the power the amps put out why are the clipping lights coming on? Help me out on this one.

Now is it possible the amps are not getting enough juice. A 20 amp breaker is recommended just for one amp and I am running the whole system (and then some) of a 15 amp breaker? I do live in a small apartment so I can't change anything around.
 
Last edited:
newsletter

  • RBHsound.com
  • BlueJeansCable.com
  • SVS Sound Subwoofers
  • Experience the Martin Logan Montis
Top