JL 12w6 v1

[fredk]

One popped up used in the area so I have a question. Does anyone know how this driver changed from v1 to v2? Chris I believe you mentioned somewhere that this driver is the equivelant of the Kappa Perfect 12. Does that apply to the v1?

The driver is 6-8 year old and the asking is... cheap.

Edit: how do I positively identify this driver?

 

[WmAx]

One popped up used in the area so I have a question. Does anyone know how this driver changed from v1 to v2? Chris I believe you mentioned somewhere that this driver is the equivelant of the Kappa Perfect 12. Does that apply to the v1?

The driver is 6-8 year old and the asking is... cheap.

Edit: how do I positively identify this driver?

This driver was good, but I doubt it was equivalent to the Kappa Perfect VQ.

The new version had a major motor re-design, based on the W7 motor system technology.

BTW, I have discovered a driver that can in a 5-6 cubic foot sealed enclosure, get a -3dB point of 20-21Hz and -6 at about 17-18Hz. Because it is only a 12db/octave roll off in a sealed box, this driver, with room low end boost, would get you about -3dB at about 15-16Hz in room, assuming you have a standard room of 2000 cubic feet or less, and you corner load the subwoofer.The driver is especially suited for SQ, as it has the most linear motor curve around, as it designed and based on the high end TC Sounds motor system - it was engineered for Eclipse by TC Sounds, afterall. But this is not high cost like the high end TC Sounds branded units. This 12" has more linear displacement than most 15" drivers. And I do mean LINEAR. It has no more than about 10 percent motor linearity deviation, at about 35mm one way. X-max is 40mm, and physical limit is about 50mm one way. The driver is 2nd to none in terms of linearity/sound quality, yet only costs $190 plus shipping on eBay. If you want even more SPL, just add a 2nd unit. But based on your prior statements, one is probably plenty. Expect average SPL for music use to be in the 110-113dB range in the room size and positioning as described above. Use minimum 500 watt amplifier. Ideally, 1000 watt amplifier.

The driver is the Eclipse SW8200.

-Chris

 

[fredk]

Thanks Chris. I wondered about v1 vs v2. I thought it might be a no risk way to see if a 12" driver would work for me. I figure if I pick up a used driver at a reasonable cost I can always sell it without loss if I am not happy.

Are you saying the Eclipse will reach a little lower than the Kappa Perfect because of the shallower rolloff?

I have also been poking around Ebay. To get one of these drivers to my door in Canada is going to be $250-270CDN. At that price I can step up to a Mach5 IXL18 , or the CSS SDX15 and have a driver operating well under its specified Xmax. The SDX15 would be operating at about 40% Xmax where these 12" drivers would be pushing the limit.

The few measurements Illka made of the SDX15 look good compared to the TC 2k. I know his tests don't really tell me anything about actual linearity or suspension distortion. I think I can also comfortable tune a sub with this driver down to 14-15Hz if desired.

At this point, I need to save pennies up so unless I find a really good deal used on one of the drivers I am considering, I don't have to make a decision yet.

By the way, I modeled the Dayton RSS390HF and it looks pretty good. It also has a shallow roll off, but it does have limited spl. It falls in that same range landed cost to me though.

Thanks for all your help Chris.

 

[WmAx]

Are you saying the Eclipse will reach a little lower than the Kappa Perfect because of the shallower rolloff?

I have also been poking around Ebay. To get one of these drivers to my door in Canada is going to be $250-270CDN. At that price I can step up to a Mach5 IXL18 , or the CSS SDX15 and have a driver operating well under its specified Xmax. The SDX15 would be operating at about 40% Xmax where these 12" drivers would be pushing the limit.

Did you read what I said about the Eclipse? It is not operating any where near it's limits. It has more actual air volume displacement than most 15" drivers. The 12" Eclipse even has substantially more air displacement than the Mach 5 18" driver. And you can be pretty certain that Mach has a very average motor with poor linearity. Of course, a TC 2k has more displacement, but a TC2k is an extraordinary subwoofer - nothing average about it. The Eclipse will comfortably response to the frequencies you so desire, and in a much smaller cabinet(only about 1/2 the size) than it will require for the 15" drivers in low tuned ported cabinets. The Kappa is not suited for a sealed system used down low, but the Eclipse is very well suited.

The few measurements Illka made of the SDX15 look good compared to the TC 2k. I know his tests don't really tell me anything about actual linearity or suspension distortion. I think I can also comfortable tune a sub with this driver down to 14-15Hz if desired.

Actually, the tests do tell you about linearity. If the distortion remains low, and frequency response relatively similar, as SPL is raised considerably, then it is a linear system. The lower the distortion as SPL raises compared to another, the more relative linearity can be deducted.

Now, the SDX15 will have more output SPL, but also a much larger cabinet, as compared to the Eclipse. How much SPL do you need? The Eclipse will give you well over 100dB, probably at least 110dB, at very low distortion down to the frequency range that you desire, and in a mere 6 cubic foot cabinet, assuming your room is the volume that I describe prior - which you never confirmed. What is your room size?

By the way, I modeled the Dayton RSS390HF and it looks pretty good. It also has a shallow roll off, but it does have limited spl. It falls in that same range landed cost to me though.

The 12" Eclipse can move a lot more air than the Dayton 15" RS. Of course, if you use the Dayton in a very large ported cabinet, it's LF output will be greater due to the port. The Eclipse can not be used in a ported system; it's specifically designed for sealed applications. If you put both the Dayton RS 15" and Eclipse in sealed cabinets, the 12" Eclipse would trounce the Dayton 15" in terms of SPL and distortion, under 35Hz. Consider the Dayton's motor will start to fall out of it's linear range at about 10mm one way stroke. The Eclipse, will start to fall out of it's linear range at about 35mm one way stroke. The Dayton has about 55% more surface area. But when you factor in stroke, the 12" Eclipse has 2.6 times the stroke, giving the Eclipse more than 2x the linear air volume displacement as compared to the 15" Dayton, despite the smaller diameter.

-Chris

 

[fredk]

I guess I missed something the first time around. I will take another look at the eclipse and do some modeling. I can pull the T/S parameters off the diyaudio Klippel measurements.

Edit: room is small 1700cf in the main area. Add another 200 for halls and the dining area.

 

[annunaki]

One popped up used in the area so I have a question. Does anyone know how this driver changed from v1 to v2? Chris I believe you mentioned somewhere that this driver is the equivelant of the Kappa Perfect 12. Does that apply to the v1?

The driver is 6-8 year old and the asking is... cheap.

Edit: how do I positively identify this driver?

The W6v1 was a woofer well ahead of it's time. For nearly 10 years it was the benchmark that others set to beat. It had very much above average linearity for the day (It's linearity was what most would call average across the industry now).

However, the W1v2 now exceeds the linearity of the original W6v1 and is on par or better for output. The W3v3 substantially exceeds its performance.

JL Audio's proprietary DMA (Dynamic Motor Analysis) software has had great benefit with results like the W7 and W6v2. It not only models the motor but also the most linear suspensions to complement.

That Eclipse woofer looks like a winner, especially considering your room size. High linearity, low cost, & lots of headroom should you decide on a larger amplifier at some point. It uses a similar motor & VC design to the high end TC Sounds units.

 

[annunaki]

I now see why the Eclipse is priced the way it is. The suspension is not very linear compared to the motor and induces a fair amount of distortion.

Eclipse Klippel Data

I am sure this woofer outperforms many in the price category, but it is still not what one gets with a higher priced woofer such as a W6v2, W7 or Audiopulse LMS type woofers when it comes to motor & suspension linearity.

 

[WmAx]

I now see why the Eclipse is priced the way it is. The suspension is not very linear compared to the motor and induces a fair amount of distortion.

Eclipse Klippel Data

I am sure this woofer outperforms many in the price category, but it is still not what one gets with a higher priced woofer such as a W6v2, W7 or Audiopulse LMS type woofers when it comes to motor & suspension linearity.

The suspension is not bad - and is what I expect when such extreme excursions are present using more or less conventional speaker suspension system on this type of motor, though it's still more linear suspension than on a regular driver by a long stretch - note the incredible wide scale here of excursion - this gives a graphical illusion when comparing to other graphs due to the long scale; overall it hardily outperforms still, any JL or most other products in overall linearity. It would be a joke comparing, for example, the W6v2 to the Eclipse head to head in a sealed system. The Eclipse would easily produce far higher output from 35hz on down(where excursion starts to be significant) with far lower distortion. In case you are forgetting, the non linearity of the air spring of the sealed box itself is going to produce likely more non-linear resistance as compared to the suspension in this case. Let's take a perfectly linear suspension - then throw it in a sealed box. The air stiffness compliance non-linearity is going to be a substantial factor. The W6v2 is a fine driver, and for conventional speakers, it has superb linearity. But let's compare it to the Eclipse - at just 11mm one way stroke, the JL has lost greater than 20 percent of BL product. It really makes zero difference if it's suspension is more linear(and I don't really know that it is - because the distortion products from the suspension on the Elicpse happen at rather extreme excursions that the JL can not entertain attempting); the motor rapidly loses force in an excursion critical application like a sealed box. I don't know how a W7 would fair against the Eclipse, but the Eclipose does not have the power handling or robustness of the W7, so I don't try to compare these two directly. I'm pretty sure the W7 has superior suspension linearity - though I can't find klippel data on a W7 right now to directly compare - though I have seen in the past this data. I know you like JL annunaki, but they have nothing on that market that has a motor like this at the moment.

-Chris

 

[fredk]

Interesting comments. I am not able to evaluate the data so I need to rely on others when it comes to interpretation.

It seems the biggest concern with this motor technology is manufacturing variability. I see comments about a skewed BL curve, but there is no indication of how this would affect the performance of the driver.

Chris, I have been thinking further on your comments about the CSS driver and Illke's tests. So are you saying then, that if the CSS driver compares well to the TC2k in his testing, this is an indication that the CSS driver is of good quality?

 

[fredk]

(It's linearity was what most would call average across the industry now).

This brings up another point I have been mulling over. From what I am reading it would appear that there are a lot more quality large diameter drivers out there than just a few years ago. a lot of that would appear to stem from the fact that the owner of the XBL^2 patent is willing to license out the technology and design motors for multiple vendors.

Is that a reasonable assesment?

 

[WmAx]

Interesting comments. I am not able to evaluate the data so I need to rely on others when it comes to interpretation.

It seems the biggest concern with this motor technology is manufacturing variability. I see comments about a skewed BL curve, but there is no indication of how this would affect the performance of the driver.

Chris, I have been thinking further on your comments about the CSS driver and Illke's tests. So are you saying then, that if the CSS driver compares well to the TC2k in his testing, this is an indication that the CSS driver is of good quality?

Let's examine the tests of both drivers, both carried out in similar sealed cabinets. The CSS has roughly 50 percent less output(3db=50%) at any given point across most of the range. The distortion is higher for the CSS at the same time. The TC driver's limit of output was due to the the amplifier limit, not driver limit. The CSS has a more powerful amp in it's test.

The TC2000 driver is no doubt superior, but the TC drivers is unusual in terms of linearity and overall build quality/robustness. The CSS is a good driver, no question. It just is not a match for a TC2000 15", that is all. If you want to go with a cabinet of sufficient size, the CSS will serve you flawlessly.

-Chris

 

[fredk]

Thanks Chris. The CSS driver remains on my list of potential candidates.

 

[annunaki]

The suspension is not bad - and is what I expect when such extreme excursions are present using more or less conventional speaker suspension system on this type of motor, though it's still more linear suspension than on a regular driver by a long stretch - note the incredible wide scale here of excursion - this gives a graphical illusion when comparing to other graphs due to the long scale; overall it hardily outperforms still, any JL or most other products in overall linearity. It would be a joke comparing, for example, the W6v2 to the Eclipse head to head in a sealed system. The Eclipse would easily produce far higher output from 35hz on down(where excursion starts to be significant) with far lower distortion. In case you are forgetting, the non linearity of the air spring of the sealed box itself is going to produce likely more non-linear resistance as compared to the suspension in this case. Let's take a perfectly linear suspension - then throw it in a sealed box. The air stiffness compliance non-linearity is going to be a substantial factor. The W6v2 is a fine driver, and for conventional speakers, it has superb linearity. But let's compare it to the Eclipse - at just 11mm one way stroke, the JL has lost greater than 20 percent of BL product. It really makes zero difference if it's suspension is more linear(and I don't really know that it is - because the distortion products from the suspension on the Elicpse happen at rather extreme excursions that the JL can not entertain attempting); the motor rapidly loses force in an excursion critical application like a sealed box. I don't know how a W7 would fair against the Eclipse, but the Eclipose does not have the power handling or robustness of the W7, so I don't try to compare these two directly. I'm pretty sure the W7 has superior suspension linearity - though I can't find klippel data on a W7 right now to directly compare - though I have seen in the past this data. I know you like JL annunaki, but they have nothing on that market that has a motor like this at the moment.

-Chris

Chris,

You have some fair points, I was not discounting the fact that the Eclipse is probably the best solution here. Sorry if it seemed that I meant the suspension linearity was bad. I was not suggesting that the Eclipse not be used, but rather pointing out something obivous to me while looking at the data. I agree that it is probably a mute point considering the motor is so linear, it is inducing next to nothing in so far as distortion is concerned. The suspension is still more linear than a standard driver, of course, and that was not mentioned in my post.

I was probably over-analyzing one part the information a bit heavily as I tend to sometimes do.

I guess the point I was trying to make was that linear motor performance gets all the hype in a lot of cases and suspension linearity tends to be overlooked by many (not saying you overlooked it ).

Here is the Dumax linearity chart I have referenced for the 12w6v2 According to this plot, there may be 5% loss or so by 11mm. Were you referencing the W6v1??? The W6v2 is definitely above average in terms of motor linearity.

Obviously the JL motor is not as linear as the Eclipse, but it is at least 3 years older or too. The W7 motor design is even older but I do believe it performs better than the W6v2 from some Dumax reports I have seen. Who knows what they have in-store for their next release?? No excuses, just the facts

 

[WmAx]

Chris,

You have some fair points, I was not discounting the fact that the Eclipse is probably the best solution here. Sorry if it seemed that I meant the suspension linearity was bad. I was not suggesting that the Eclipse not be used, but rather pointing out something obivous to me while looking at the data. I agree that it is probably a mute point considering the motor is so linear, it is inducing next to nothing in so far as distortion is concerned. The suspension is still more linear than a standard driver, of course, and that was not mentioned in my post.

I was probably over-analyzing one part the information a bit heavily as I tend to sometimes do.

I guess the point I was trying to make was that linear motor performance gets all the hype in a lot of cases and suspension linearity tends to be overlooked by many (not saying you overlooked it ).

Here is the Dumax linearity chart I have referenced for the 12w6v2 According to this plot, there may be 5% loss or so by 11mm. Were you referencing the W6v1??? The W6v2 is definitely above average in terms of motor linearity.

Obviously the JL motor is not as linear as the Eclipse, but it is at least 3 years older or too. The W7 motor design is even older but I do believe it performs better than the W6v2 from some Dumax reports I have seen. Who knows what they have in-store for their next release?? No excuses, just the facts

The link you just provided, and averaging +, - stroke; 0mm=BL=10, 11mm=BL=9; 10 percent motor strength loss. By 15mm, the loss is about 25% and falling fast. Now, this is an extraordinary BL curve for a conventional driver, don't get me wrong. But it obviously is ill suited to any substantial SPL in a sealed box system at low frequencies under about 35Hz. It would be perfect in ported applications, and that is the specific application that I recommend this driver for use within.

-Chris

 

[annunaki]

The link you just provided, and averaging +, - stroke; 0mm=BL=10, 11mm=BL=9; 10 percent motor strength loss. By 15mm, the loss is about 25% and falling fast. Now, this is an extraordinary BL curve for a conventional driver, don't get me wrong. But it obviously is ill suited to any substantial SPL in a sealed box system at low frequencies under about 35Hz. It would be perfect in ported applications, and that is the specific application that I recommend this driver for use within.

-Chris

I completely agree with you. A sealed woofer in the home environment the 12W6v2 is not.