JBL 580's - first comments and questions.

[Pogre]

Curious, did SVS include a pair?
I'm thinking that the white gloves eventually got associated with inexpensive speakers wanting to pretend to be high end, since I haven't seen or read of them being included with any speakers recently.

I was assuming I'd get white gloves. I heard they did that, but no gloves for me. Slightly disappointing. Could be because I went all b stock. Didn't matter tho. I have plenty!

 

[shadyJ]

I was assuming I'd get white gloves. I heard they did that, but no gloves for me. Slightly disappointing. Could be because I went all b stock. Didn't matter tho. I have plenty!

View attachment 22218

Those are safety gloves, aren't they? Not quite the same thing as the cotton gloves used for keeping fingerprints off of surfaces. I suppose they would have the same effect, so long as they are not dirty.

 

[Pogre]

Those are safety gloves, aren't they? Not quite the same thing as the cotton gloves used for keeping fingerprints off of surfaces. I suppose they would have the same effect, so long as they are not dirty.

They're not designed for fingerprints, but they're 100% cotton. More for keeping your hands warm than anything. I wore them under nitrile gloves and they kept my hands warm and dry. I used bring them home from work with me and toss them in the laundry with the whites. Some are a little stained (blood and dirt from the boxes the meat came in), but they're all clean. I've had to empty that drawer a few times now!

*Edit: I have this weird aversion to touching cardboard, paper bags and boxes. Especially if my hands are dryer than normal. I break out in goosebumps and the whole sensation is just very... unpleasant for me. It feels like he cardboard is sucking all of the moisture out of my hands where they touch. If I think about it hard enough I break out in goosebumps! Closest I can come to describing it is, it's like nails on a chalkboard for some people, only I have unpleasant tactile sensations and goosebumps that go along with it. *shudder*

All of our meat came in cardboard boxes so I wore those gloves pretty much all day at work.

 

[zieglj01]

Question #3 - Often, with dual woofers, one is a mid-woof and the other is only a woofer. However only one crossover frequency is specified so I assume there is no BSC (baffle step compensation). Does the use of a compression tweeter with horn somehow eliminate the need for BSC? (FWIW, the Klipsch does not have BSC either)

The only thing that I will say is that the Studio 530 bookshelf had 18 parts to the crossover.

 

[speakerman39]

The only thing that I will say is that the Studio 530 bookshelf had 18 parts to the crossover.

Looks to be of 3rd order from what I can tell, no? Good quality components too. Greg Timbers did an outstanding job with the 500 series inmho. Just wished I had such skills to do that. X-over design is the best part of loudspeaker design. At least, the most fun!


Cheers,

Phil

 

[zieglj01]

Looks to be of 3rd order from what I can tell, no? Good quality components too. Greg Timbers did an outstanding job with the 500 series inmho. Just wished I had such skills to do that. X-over design is the best part of loudspeaker design. At least, the most fun!

It seems to look around 3rd order, but also maybe some type of shaping going on. The 530 also crosses over at 1500 khz

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Thanks for the response/correction. Based on your comments, I am sure I am mistaken.
I had a PM discussion with TLSGuy regarding the Focal Twins and based on the FR and other measurements, he commented that they had used the second woofer for dealing with BSC. There are several speakers that are categorized as 2.5 way speakers and I mistakenly inferred that they all did this to accomplish BSC.
I know that the woofers of the FS-52 are crossed at 250Hz and 3kHz depending on if they are acting as woofer or mid-woofer.
Is this more often done to balance the efficiency of the lows vs the mids?

It's easy to be confused about 2.5 designs. They're simply one other way to achieve baffle step compensation. In an MTM or MMT 2-way design, both woofers have the same crossover points and slopes, and the crossover network flattens out all or some of the naturally rising response in the midrange that's due to the baffle step. Other things equal, an MTM or MMT will have 6 dB greater sensitivity than a MT with the same crossover slopes. In a 2.5, the lower woofer is rolled off about where the baffle step begins. The upper woofer is allowed to rise 6 db with no baffles step compensation. The combined output is flat, at the same level of sensitivity as a 2.0 MTM or MMT. So why bother with the added complexity of a 2.5 design if there's no gain in sensitivity? The reason is reduced comb filtering between the two woofers vertically off-axis. If the two woofers operate at the same level of output until they are rolled off at, say, 2200 Hz, the two woofer will start to go out of phase with each other around 1500 Hz as you move vertically up or down, because the relative flight time of the two woofers changes. In a 2.5, there is less interaction between the two woofers because the lower woofer is being rolled off in the upper midrange. The result is smoother vertical off-axis response.

 

[speakerman39]

It's easy to be confused about 2.5 designs. They're simply one other way to achieve baffle step compensation. In an MTM or MMT 2-way design, both woofers have the same crossover points and slopes, and the crossover network flattens out all or some of the naturally rising response in the midrange that's due to the baffle step. Other things equal, an MTM or MMT will have 6 dB greater sensitivity than a MT with the same crossover slopes. In a 2.5, the lower woofer is rolled off about where the baffle step begins. The upper woofer is allowed to rise 6 db with no baffles step compensation. The combined output is flat, at the same level of sensitivity as a 2.0 MTM or MMT. So why bother with the added complexity of a 2.5 design if there's no gain in sensitivity? The reason is reduced comb filtering between the two woofers vertically off-axis. If the two woofers operate at the same level of output until they are rolled off at, say, 2200 Hz, the two woofer will start to go out of phase with each other around 1500 Hz as you move vertically up or down, because the relative flight time of the two woofers changes. In a 2.5, there is less interaction between the two woofers because the lower woofer is being rolled off in the upper midrange. The result is smoother vertical off-axis response.

Very informative Dennis. But, what if both mids were wired in parallel would that have any effect? It is my understanding that tweeters for the most part do NOT change over all impedance that much. Is that correct?

Conversely, what is both mids were wired in series as opposed to parallel? How would that affect over all impedance? Just trying to learn something here. Lastly, does the 18 element X-over in Ziegl's post above look to be 3rd order to you? How does shaping come into play as Ziegl mentioned? Thanks!


Cheers,

Phil

 

[GeneC]

I also received a pair of 580's from Amazon last weekend. Packing was average at best, but they arrived safely which was a miracle since UPS passed them off to USPS. I got them out of the box without hurting them or myself so all-in-all, boxes and packing material accomplished their goal. The Swan Diva's I bought in 2005/2006? were packed to the hilt. Double-boxed, thick styrofoam and rapped in white cloth bags. And yes, a pair of cheap, useless white gloves. Swan knew how to do it.

After setting the 580's in place and hooking them up they got my usual 12 seconds of speaker break-in* before the critical listening session began. While they look like a working girl walking down San Pablo Avenue, they sound like the sweet kiss of an expensive call-girl from The City.

They took the place of a pair of Infinity IL30's ($100 dollar CL deal that also included an IL25c) which I prefer over the more acclaimed IL40's. I also have a pair of Studio L880's which went back-and-forth with the 580's during the initial listening session. I listened in both Analog Direct and with the self-adjusted (for each speaker) MCACC EQ. I also matched SPL's of course. While they were pretty much better then the L880's in every respect, they weren't that much better in any area. I could listen to them both for the long term, but having to look at the 580's...that's another thing. I know, who cares what they look like? Well, apparently I do. What can I say? When I put the IL30's back in place I realized they were almost as good as the other two, and put warm smile on my face. But I can't explain why. They just did.

Anyway, a great buy for $518 shipped, but they will eventually find another home. While they may sound like a high-priced call girl, and the L880's the thick, built-like-a-brick girl in your companies shipping dept, the IL30's are more like your wife. Maybe not better in any area, but the one you can live with over the years. I know it doesn't make any sense to like the IL30's more then the 580's or the L880's, but the heart want's what the heart want's. And so do my ears.

Don't get me wrong. The 580's and 880's are very good speakers and I will re-visit the 3 speakers again and give the 580's a second look this weekend, but for now it looks like the search for a better wife...I mean, speaker...continues.

* I have no idea if speaker break really exists (and don't really care) but if it does my Advanced Adult Attention Deficit Disorder (AAADD) will never allow it to occure anyway.

Let the joy of sound continue.

 

[zieglj01]

* I have no idea if speaker break really exists (and don't really care) but if it does my Advanced Adult Attention Deficit Disorder (AAADD) will never allow it to occure anyway.

Let the joy of sound continue.

I am a little more patient with speaker break-in, as I give them 13.24578 minutes to break-in.

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Very informative Dennis. But, what if both mids were wired in parallel would that have any effect? It is my understanding that tweeters for the most part do NOT change over all impedance that much. Is that correct?

Conversely, what is both mids were wired in series as opposed to parallel? How would that affect over all impedance? Just trying to learn something here. Lastly, does the 18 element X-over in Ziegl's post above look to be 3rd order to you? How does shaping come into play as Ziegl mentioned? Thanks!


Cheers,

Phil

Hi Phil. I'm having trouble following your impedance questions. About all I can do is state the basics. If two woofers are wired in parallel, they will have 6 dB greater output than a single identical woofer. If two woofers are wired in series, there will be no change in output compared with a single woofer (because the increase in impedance cancels out the gain in output from the second woofer), but there will be a gain in power handling. I guess you're asking whether it makes much difference in system impedance (the impedance of the whole speaker with the crossover in place) whether the tweeter is 4 ohms or 8 ohms. I think that depends on so many variables that I wouldn't want to offer a generalization. I suspect the JBL is 4th order Linkwitz Riley acoustic, but you can't really tell without a circuit diagram. (Remember, it's the acoustic crossover slope that counts, not the electrical). Some of those components may be wired in parallel to form a higher or lower value, and as such they're really only one component. But I would need a map to tell for sure.

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

*Edit: I have this weird aversion to touching cardboard, paper bags and boxes. Especially if my hands are dryer than normal. I break out in goosebumps and the whole sensation is just very... unpleasant for me. It feels like he cardboard is sucking all of the moisture out of my hands where they touch. If I think about it hard enough I break out in goosebumps! Closest I can come to describing it is, it's like nails on a chalkboard for some people, only I have unpleasant tactile sensations and goosebumps that go along with it. *shudder*

/QUOTE]
Rawr!!!!

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

Looks to be of 3rd order from what I can tell, no? Good quality components too. Greg Timbers did an outstanding job with the 500 series inmho. Just wished I had such skills to do that. X-over design is the best part of loudspeaker design. At least, the most fun!


Cheers,

Phil

Seems like some of his last work there maybe? I think they fired him in 2015. I can't imagine why. Stupid bean counters probably lol. I enjoy that I can say my older studio series jbl's were designed by Greg. The 590's were on my short list to start replacing my aging stuff with. Seems like the whole 500 series was received well.

 

[rojo]

I got my pair of 580's and unboxed them.
JBL could learn a little about packing and presentation from Klipsch. I would consider my RF-82 II's to be roughly in the same class. I will be comparing these two speakers in the near future, but first impressions matter and the Klipsch packaging and unpacking instructions allowed me to feel like I got something special while the JBL was thoroughly utilitarian. There is no significant cost to having better unpacking instruction on the exterior of the box. From a practical standpoint, this is not a big deal because you only unpack them once, but if I was JBL, I would want my customers to be as proud of their purchase as possible to reduce the incidence of returns!
They have an interesting panel to act as the lower section of the waveguide if you prefer to leave the grill off of the mid-woofers.
The upper pic shows w/o & with grill, the lower pic shows this panel installed (and an interesting speaker stand in the background - looks like a very small Martin-Logan sub for the base):

Unfortunately one of these panels is defective - it looks like one of the mounting pins was mashed while it was still hot - right after coming out of the molding machine and there is no way to align/install this panel!
Normally, I would follow the normal retarded system of returning the entire speaker to get a functioning panel! However, since these are out of stock, I don't want to end up with a single speaker!

Question #1 - Does anyone have ideas on how to contact JBL directly to get a replacement part sent? I think Sound Designs was the seller, but figure JBL is who ultimately will replace the panel. Not sure I will ever use it, but I want the speakers to be whole in case I sell them.

Question #2 - The crossover is at 1500kHz. Will the removal of the grill over the mid drivers have an audible effect? I generally think of grills as effecting the higher frequencies, but don't know what frequencies would likely be compromised by the grill.

Question #3 - Often, with dual woofers, one is a mid-woof and the other is only a woofer. However only one crossover frequency is specified so I assume there is no BSC (baffle step compensation). Does the use of a compression tweeter with horn somehow eliminate the need for BSC? (FWIW, the Klipsch does not have BSC either)

Hey Kurt, you might enjoy reading this review of the 590s: http://i.nextmedia.com.au/avhub/australian-hifi_reviews_2013_2013-08_jbl-studio-590-loudspeakers-review.pdf

If you can get past all the fluffy logorrhea waxing poetic about the glories of the waveguide and the name dropping, there is some worthwhile info that removes the veil around some of the mysteries and can help scratch your curiosity about your new speakers. Unfortunately, there's no advice offered regarding a botched molded grille post. But it does mention the 2.5-ness of the midbass drivers and explains that there's negligible impact to the sound between grille on and off. Bonus: it has measurement graphs.

 

[zieglj01]

NewEgg is having a flash sale on the Studio 520 center on Wed
https://flash.newegg.com/search?keyword=Speaker&within=Jbl&category=0&nm_mc=AFC-C8Junction&cm_mmc=AFC-C8Junction-VigLink-_-na-_-na-_-na&AID=12087162&PID=6155355&SID=j7ct9oyl7c00s3dy020oo&utm_medium=affiliates&utm_source=afc-VigLink

 

[speakerman39]

I guess you're asking whether it makes much difference in system impedance (the impedance of the whole speaker with the crossover in place) whether the tweeter is 4 ohms or 8 ohms. I think that depends on so many variables that I wouldn't want to offer a generalization. I suspect the JBL is 4th order Linkwitz Riley acoustic, but you can't really tell without a circuit diagram. (Remember, it's the acoustic crossover slope that counts, not the electrical). Some of those components may be wired in parallel to form a higher or lower value, and as such they're really only one component. But I would need a map to tell for sure.

Yes, I was asking if the tweeter being 4 ohm or 8 ohm really changes over all impedance when the mid or mids are wired in parallel and/or in series. More importantly, how does that affect/change the X-over design? Can you explain the differences between acoustic crossover slopes vs. electrical. Just a bit confused on that here. I find X-over design fascinating. There is much more to it than I ever thought though. Thanks!

Cheers,

Phil

 

[speakerman39]

Seems like some of his last work there maybe? I think they fired him in 2015. I can't imagine why. Stupid bean counters probably lol. I enjoy that I can say my older studio series jbl's were designed by Greg. The 590's were on my short list to start replacing my aging stuff with. Seems like the whole 500 series was received well.

William, I read over on AVS that Greg Timbers was fired from JBL after working there for over 40-years! He stated that himself. Was just looking for the link, but to no avail. I do believe, however, that it(the link) is on the JBL thread over @AVS. If I remember correctly, Greg was let go back in late 2014. I also agree that the man is a genius when it comes to designing loudspeakers. Hence, the Studio 500 series being the perfect example. Not a tower guy myself, but I loved the 530's.


Cheers,

Phil

 

[William Lemmerhirt]

William, I read over on AVS that Greg Timbers was fired from JBL after working there for over 40-years! He stated that himself. Was just looking for the link, but to no avail. I do believe, however, that it(the link) is on the JBL thread over @AVS. If I remember correctly, Greg was let go back in late 2014. I also agree that the man is a genius when it comes to designing loudspeakers. Hence, the Studio 500 series being the perfect example. Not a tower guy myself, but I loved the 530's.


Cheers,

Phil

Hey Phil, there are likely many others, but this forum seems to have been a place of high activity for Greg. Not a long read but still interesting.
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?37395-End-of-an-Era-43-years-with-JBL-is-Over

 

[speakerman39]

Hey Phil, there are likely many others, but this forum seems to have been a place of high activity for Greg. Not a long read but still interesting.
http://www.audioheritage.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?37395-End-of-an-Era-43-years-with-JBL-is-Over

William, this looks like the link that I was looking for. What an amazing talent w/over (4) decades of experience. The 530's sure made a believer out of me. Thanks for the link.


Cheers,

Phil

 

[Dennis Murphy]

Yes, I was asking if the tweeter being 4 ohm or 8 ohm really changes over all impedance when the mid or mids are wired in parallel and/or in series. More importantly, how does that affect/change the X-over design? Can you explain the differences between acoustic crossover slopes vs. electrical. Just a bit confused on that here. I find X-over design fascinating. There is much more to it than I ever thought though. Thanks!

Cheers,

Phil

The order of the electrical crossover slope is simply the number of branches in the circuit. A first order has one positive branch (a coil for the woof, a cap for the tweet), a second order adds a branch to ground (coil for the tweet, cap for the woof), and so on. But the performance characteristics of a speaker depend on the order of the acoustic slopes--the rate at which the woofer actually rolls off at the top end, and the tweeter at the bottom. That's what the ear hears, and what affects its lobing pattern and phase characteristics. That will depend not only on the electrical circuit--the roll-off that arrives at the speaker's input terminals (also known as the transfer function)l--but on the inherent response of the woofer (and on the shape of its impedance curve). If the woofer has a sharply rising response above the intended crossover point, you could end up with less than a 4th order slope. If the driver is already starting to roll off at the crossover point, you could end up with a steeper than 4th order slope. In general, but not always, you end up with a steeper slope than the order of the electrical circuit. So it's not unusual for a speaker with a 4th order acoustic Linkwitz-Riley crossover to have a 3rd order electrical circuit, or frequently a second order. It's quite unusual for the electrical and acoustic slopes to be equal. At the extreme, if a woofer and a tweeter had very smooth 4th order roll-offs on their own, you wouldn't need any crossover at all (ignoring baffle step compensation), and the electrical "circuit" would be of zero order.