Jack Kervorkian out of the joint.

[highfihoney]

Stratman's right about once the government gets involved the whole process would be at risk,mostly due to a political process thats mostly interested in pleasing everybody without offending anybody,the governments main interest would not be helping people.

IMO the process should only involve the "patient" and nobody else,no system of checks & balances,no oversite board,no head shrinks,no doctors opinions,nada.

Once again, IMO, once a person decides they want to end their own life there should be a place for them to go & get it done,without the usual nonsense that follows anything controversial in the United States.

People who want to die should be allowed to do so,with dignity & not be forced to eat a bullet,swallow pills or cut their wrists,and leave their body as a mess for shocked family members to find.

 

[stratman]

While an interesting read the paper glosses over a few points. The Doctors job is to provide the proper care for the patient, with consent being of up most priority along side legal protection (especially in this case) for all those involved. If the doctor does not believe in the given treatment yet it is the best choice for the patient it is their duty to at least allow access to said treatment. This is just like pharmacists refusing the contraception pills on a religious bases to those prescribed it.

If a treatment is legally allowed and could be the proper choice it is irresponsible to disallow it on any grounds as long as it is not harming the uninvolved.

With a system of proper checks and balances a legalized euthanasia system could save thousands from undo suffering.

The crux of the problem is that we expect "a system of proper checks and balances" if history teaches us anything is that checks and balances can be circumvented at will by the powers that be. In an ideal society this could work, but not in the current situation worldwide. By the way the Netherlands has had some disturbing episodes where doctors have "mistakenly" pulled the plug on some patients without consultation either with patient or family, here in the US that would at least be considered manslaughter.

If you want to forego any future complications regarding end of life issues, now is the time, sit with an attorney and get your paperwork done now don't leave it to your loved ones to make that decision for you, you might be forcing someone to make a decision they might not be able to live with and that's not fair for them either, you make that decision now. Avaserfi this is not directed at you, I'm generalizing. It's meant for all that are considering such a proposition.

 

[avaserfi]

I agree with you in this case I do believe it everyone should make it well known, in will form, as to their wishes in the unfourtunate event of coma or deadly, painful, disease.

Highfihoney: The problem with soley leaving it up to the patient is when a depressed or mentally ill patient decides life isn't worth living, if it was just their choice people who need not be euthanised would be.

I also realize that most systems aren't perfect but the problem with the current state is people do commit suicide and many times they need help to do so. Why force a family member or doctor to help someone in so much pain they cannot live in secret when it could be done properly and respectfully.

 

[loserwife]

There's still only one state that has a law allowing physician-assisted suicide — Oregon.

 

[highfihoney]

Highfihoney: The problem with soley leaving it up to the patient is when a depressed or mentally ill patient decides life isn't worth living, if it was just their choice people who need not be euthanised would be.

That is exactly the problem,people feel the need to somehow save others from their self,which i think is BS to say the least,who is anybody to judge the depth of another persons depression,for some people depression is every bit as painfull as terminal lung cancer or any other terminal & painfull disease,for some its even worse than a terminal illness because they can see no end in sight.

You bring up a good point with depression,some people have experienced deep rooted pain & sorrow that most others will never feel or be able to appreciate,where every last day is filled with painfull memories,people who have never experienced such things first hand could never understand,even if their degree says they can.

Depression & mental illness is always brought up as justification against assisted suicide,it should not matter to others why a person wants to end their own suffering,if they have no vested interest(family)in the matter than its a matter of personal choice.

 

[avaserfi]

While I am for assissted suicide my only problem with allowing those with mental illness to choose death is the same as letting a 15 year old choose death, diminished capacity. Since these are my areas of study (getting a triple degree in psych/soc/criminal justice with emphasises in medicine and stat) I have been around, and have been myself, clinically depressed. Anyone who has spent considerable time with the mentally underdeveloped or impaired, I am including children in this catagory, will realize that people such as these just do not have the capacity to make such a serious decision.

 

[highfihoney]

Avaserfi,no disrespect to you or the time you spent getting degree's but degree's or study has nothing to do with other people's feelings,we all think we know something about what the other person is going through but we dont,every situation is unique,schooling cant replicate feelings nor can it replicate suffering & sorrow.

While children & retarted people should obviously be either excluded or have some form of doctors approval the everyday common man should not, surely not on the grounds that he's just depressed.

Why is it that most people refuse to understand the real pain of depression & blow it off as something thats fixable,to many it will never be right.

 

[avaserfi]

No disrespect taken but I thought I made myself more clear. While a class room environment does not replicate the pain of mental disorders working with the ill, which I do, does help greatly. Also, the fact that I do struggle with diagnosable depression is another insight into the likes of that. I for one can speak that some days I have wanted to die but that was only when the disorder was at its worst and I wasn't thinking clearly. The fact that I couldn't go to a dr and say I would like to end my life this pain is unimaginable and have it happen is a plus.

Also, I never said it can be fixed overnight, it is something very hard to do but can be fixed, unlike terminal illness which I think is the proper outlet for this medium.

 

[captain_tinker]

Folks,
I have to admit, I am surprised by the utter selfishness of those who say that they would choose to end their own lives. What defeatism, and pessimism. And then to see the person who mentioned Terri Schiavo, and the pain that that caused her and her family. To politicize and advocate murder is unconcionable. Even self murder, which is really what suicide is, is a terrible thing!

I understand that there are those in terrible pain and agony, and that is awful and terrible, but to resort to murder to fix it, I just cannot even fathom the selfishness and self loathing that must accompany it.

Suicide may release you from the pain of this life, but that is certainly going to stop your progress in the next life. I realize that this view begins to touch on religious beliefs, but that is unavoidable, and I refuse to apologize for it. I cannot let something like this go on without commenting on it.

I believe that we lived with God before coming to earth, as his spirit children, literal children. I also believe that we came to earth to obtain a physical body and to progress in this plane of existence, to show if we will be obedient to him through faith so that we may someday return to him and be like him.

I say through faith, because we have no knowledge of our previous existence. If we had knowledge of this existence, we could not have faith, it would be a perfect knowledge, and none of us could excersise our free agency that we have been given to act as we will while on this earth. If we knew where we came from and had a perfect remembrance of our previous life, we would all be perfect in this life, and the whole point of this life would have been void.

We have been commanded "thou shalt not commit murder". It does not go into any further detail than that. I am confident that that means it covers ALL kinds of murder, even murder of self, or assisting someone else to do so. So I cannot in good concience condone such an act, even if it were myself in this position, which who knows, could eventually happen. I cannot say that if such a thing were to ever come upon me that I may not desire to be released, and that thoughts of suicide would not come to mind. But I can be certain that I would NOT follow through with it, nor would I constrain another to commit murder by assisting me to do so.

This is something that I feel VERY strongly about. I will not comment further on it, and this will be my last post in this thread on this subject. If I am banned because of it, so what. If I offend anyone by it, again too bad. This is something that I will NOT apologise for. Someone needs to stand up for what is right.

-capT

 

[highfihoney]

Folks,
I have to admit, I am surprised by the utter selfishness of those who say that they would choose to end their own lives.

I understand that there are those in terrible pain and agony, and that is awful and terrible, but to resort to murder to fix it, I just cannot even fathom the selfishness and self loathing that must accompany it.

-capT

You cant fathom it because you've never had reason to understand it,as with everything else in life circumstances change,people change,pain thresholds are different for every person,thank god that you've yet to experience anything that made your mind cross the threshold of loving life to dreading the next day,consider your self fortunate,others are not so lucky.

The only selfishness is from outsiders looking in,trying to force their veiws & ideals on those who suffer,daily.

Self loathing????wtf.....thats just silly

 

[avaserfi]

You cant fathom it because you've never had reason to understand it,as with everything else in life circumstances change,people change,pain thresholds are different for every person,thank god that you've yet to experience anything that made your mind cross the threshold of loving life to dreading the next day,consider your self fortunate,others are not so lucky.

The only selfishness is from outsiders looking in,trying to force their veiws & ideals on those who suffer,daily.

Self loathing????wtf.....thats just silly

I have to say I definitely agree with you there.

My family has been put in the position where a death of a loved one was a more joyous occasion than sad. As odd as it sounds try helping someone who can't remember who you are, who he is or where he is along with why it hurts live his life happily. His final passing was a a great thing that eased his pain more than anyone else's. Our pain through his death would have only been lessened more if his pain in life could have been.

 

[hemiram]

My mom's ex brother in law, in his middle 90's, had a blood clot in the artery supplying blood to his intestines. It started out with some minor cramps, and his doctor asked him what he wanted to do "If it's something bad". He said, without thinking (Thinking was never this guy's thing) "Everything you can!" He had no power of attorney, no living will, even though his kids had tried and tried to get him to set them up.

The night after he went to see his doctor, he started having terrible pain, and was taken to the hospital, where he was opened up, and gangrene of his intestines was found. He had the dead stuff removed, and was given a colostomy. He got a terrible infection, and then went septic, and nearly died. Because of his comment to the doctor, they opened him up again, and again, and again. His kids have tried to get the docs to stop, without success.

He's on a respirator, is not responsive, and shows signs of major brain damage. The doctors wanted to operate again,but he's in too bad of shape to allow it. HE MIGHT NOT SURVIVE, as if that's something bad at this point. He hangs on and on, over too months now, and the doctors call his son and daughter, who is very ill herself, and say, "This is it!", but it isn't. The doctors won't allow the respirator to be removed. His daughter came down here from 400 miles away the first 3 "this is it's", but she's waiting for a lung transplant, and just can't do it anymore. Meanwhile, the hospital bill is cranking up at warp speed, and is already over $280,000 and the billing at that hospital is very slow, so it's actually much higher. It's probably going to take the sale of his house just to pay the part of the bill his crappy insurance won't cover, probably $100K by the time it's over. What would have been a nice estate to leave to his kids and grandkids will be hammered by the time it's over. It's 2 months since this insanity started, and he hangs on and on. He's not going to be more than a vegetable if he were to somehow survive. He's said in front of many people that he never would want to live that way.

The point is, make a living will, and a power of attorney! NOW.

 

[Rickster71]

The point is, make a living will, and a power of attorney! NOW.

Agreed!
It's hard to get family to talk about that stuff. I think, they may feel we have ulterior motives.
You are so right!

 

[billy p]

My mom's ex brother in law, in his middle 90's, had a blood clot in the artery supplying blood to his intestines. It started out with some minor cramps, and his doctor asked him what he wanted to do "If it's something bad". He said, without thinking (Thinking was never this guy's thing) "Everything you can!" He had no power of attorney, no living will, even though his kids had tried and tried to get him to set them up.

The night after he went to see his doctor, he started having terrible pain, and was taken to the hospital, where he was opened up, and gangrene of his intestines was found. He had the dead stuff removed, and was given a colostomy. He got a terrible infection, and then went septic, and nearly died. Because of his comment to the doctor, they opened him up again, and again, and again. His kids have tried to get the docs to stop, without success.

He's on a respirator, is not responsive, and shows signs of major brain damage. The doctors wanted to operate again,but he's in too bad of shape to allow it. HE MIGHT NOT SURVIVE, as if that's something bad at this point. He hangs on and on, over too months now, and the doctors call his son and daughter, who is very ill herself, and say, "This is it!", but it isn't. The doctors won't allow the respirator to be removed. His daughter came down here from 400 miles away the first 3 "this is it's", but she's waiting for a lung transplant, and just can't do it anymore. Meanwhile, the hospital bill is cranking up at warp speed, and is already over $280,000 and the billing at that hospital is very slow, so it's actually much higher. It's probably going to take the sale of his house just to pay the part of the bill his crappy insurance won't cover, probably $100K by the time it's over. What would have been a nice estate to leave to his kids and grandkids will be hammered by the time it's over. It's 2 months since this insanity started, and he hangs on and on. He's not going to be more than a vegetable if he were to somehow survive. He's said in front of many people that he never would want to live that way.

The point is, make a living will, and a power of attorney! NOW.

Situations like this the family/patient must come to terms and sometimes make the difficult decision of having the medical team giving them something for the pain and DNR!!

 

[hemiram]

An update, he finally died. I went to the viewing yesterday, and his entire family were upset that the doctors put him through all that. The whole thing from the first doctor's office visit, to the end took just short of 4 months! He was in intermediate or intensive care almost the entire time, and the bill will be astronomical. FIVE surgeries, a couple more "procedures", several "codes", and the bill just cranked up at warp speed. His estate will have to pay 20%, way, way over 100k! His daughter needs all the money she can get for the lung transplant bill, if she gets one, she's not good at all, and the way it sounds, she is being moved to the top of the list, and if she doesn't get the lungs soon, it will be too late. This whole thing has been hell for her.

My mother has had a living will for over 25 years and I've had one almost that long. It's just the smart thing to do. Be an organ donor while you're at it, and TELL your relatives to donate your organs if/when you die!! Don't keep quiet, tell them. We know someone who was heavily involved with organ donation, and when he died, his daughter, who he hadn't seen in years, refused to donate, not knowing anything about it. His other relatives went nuts when they found out.

 

[mtrycrafts]

An update, he finally died. I went to the viewing yesterday, and his entire family were upset that the doctors put him through all that. The whole thing from the first doctor's office visit, to the end took just short of 4 months! He was in intermediate or intensive care almost the entire time, and the bill will be astronomical. FIVE surgeries, a couple more "procedures", several "codes", and the bill just cranked up at warp speed. His estate will have to pay 20%, way, way over 100k! His daughter needs all the money she can get for the lung transplant bill, if she gets one, she's not good at all, and the way it sounds, she is being moved to the top of the list, and if she doesn't get the lungs soon, it will be too late. This whole thing has been hell for her.

My mother has had a living will for over 25 years and I've had one almost that long. It's just the smart thing to do. Be an organ donor while you're at it, and TELL your relatives to donate your organs if/when you die!! Don't keep quiet, tell them. We know someone who was heavily involved with organ donation, and when he died, his daughter, who he hadn't seen in years, refused to donate, not knowing anything about it. His other relatives went nuts when they found out.

Thanks for sharing such a family tragedy. Hope it will help some avoid this.