It's Been Said That "Speakers are What Matters," and so...

P

PearlcorderS701

Banned
Did you ever decide on a new pair?
Hello, Caper, and thank you for the thread revival; no, I haven't decided on one yet, still using my R20's right now, but it's funny you asked this because I was getting ready to start a new thread specifically concentrating on asking questions regarding which speakers would be a definite more audiophile step up from my R20's and are floorstanders, but yet would be a sensible match for my 8555 sonically and budgetary matching wise...
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
What Pryo is stating that the Magenpans are mostly resisitive in their impedance compared to that of conventional loud speakers Convenetial speakers impedance has a large reactive component. That means that the power delivered to the Magenepans will have a greater pecentage applied to the actual resistive load than that of the Polks. That same power when delivered to the Polks will have a larger component waisted on the reactive part of the speaker impedance and less power delivered to the resistive part. Its the resistive component of the impedance that directly influences how loud the speaker will play.
Just because an impedance curve is flat does not mean the load is not reactive.

The Magnepans, have a fine ribbon bonded to a thin mylar film. There is a perforated grid containing permanent magnets. The signal from the amplifier passes though the ribbon film. Since the voltage is not constant, it varies with the modulation of the signal, the current is not constant, and this results in a modulated magnetic flux which interacts with the steady flux of the permanent magnets to modulate the diaphragm. So it is a reactive load and there will be a phase angle between voltage and current.

These speakers have a flat impedance curve, so they will actually present a somewhat lower impedance to the amp. Now the effect of the phase angles does not show up in the impedance curves.

The problem arises in that because of the phase angles you have the phenomenon of true and apparent power. The true power will be what is consumed, however the current for the apparent power has to be provided by the amp without clipping. In other words at parts of the cycle power consumed is higher than you would think and at other parts of the cycle power is given back. That is in the nature of reactive AC circuits. The difference in true power and apparent power is dependent on the phase angle between voltage and current. The wider the phase angle the greater the current required to provide the apparent power requirement.

The phase angle of speakers is seldom specified. There has been a lot of discussion over the years in the professional journals about coming up with a spec that truly quantifies the difficulty the load a given speaker presents to an amp. In fact realistic ways of doing this have been developed, but this is heavily resisted by the loudspeaker industry for obvious reasons.

The MMG speakers are actually quite insensitive. They are specified at 86 db 2.84 volts 1 meter, which would put them at only 83 db 1 watt 1 meter.

Magnepans have always been known to be inefficient as the there is greater space between the conductor (ribbon) and the magnets than in voice coil type speakers.

Since they have a flat four ohm impedance curve, but by the nature of their design, the load must be to some degree reactive, the current required at parts of the cycle will be higher than suggested by ohms law.

That is why Magenplanar loudspeakers do really require a beefy amp. I have heard the Mggies often and like them. They do sound their best when driven by expensive amps. After all is said and done though they are a poor man's electrostatic. In my view good full range electrostatics are superior. However these are expensive complicated, more prone to failure and present difficult capacitative loads to amps.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I am happy to see more people now seem to know the need to consider the phase angle vs frequency graph in addition to the impedance vs frequency graph. Less than a couple of years ago the same people would simply post the popular V=IR, P=V²/R, P=I²R etc., completely ignoring the cosƟ part. Once again, more power to Google.:D People now don’t need to go to libraries and/or college and universities to talk like an expert.

Now I hope people don't get carried away and start exaggerating things by saying this and that speaker is hard to drive because of it is highly reactive, and impedance dips blablabla. One has to look at the graph to see at what frequencies those dips occur, how low they dip etc., before jumping to conclusions.

Regardless, it is really good to see posts are getting more info based instead of hearsays based these days.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Hello, Caper, and thank you for the thread revival; no, I haven't decided on one yet, still using my R20's right now, but it's funny you asked this because I was getting ready to start a new thread specifically concentrating on asking questions regarding which speakers would be a definite more audiophile step up from my R20's and are floorstanders, but yet would be a sensible match for my 8555 sonically and budgetary matching wise...
Do you still not trust the perceived sound quality of the P362?
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
Just because an impedance curve is flat does not mean the load is not reactive.
I never stated that the impedance curve is flat TLS. Please reread my post

The Magnepans, have a fine ribbon bonded to a thin mylar film. There is a perforated grid containing permanent magnets. The signal from the amplifier passes though the ribbon film. Since the voltage is not constant, it varies with the modulation of the signal, the current is not constant, and this results in a modulated magnetic flux which interacts with the steady flux of the permanent magnets to modulate the diaphragm. So it is a reactive load and there will be a phase angle between voltage and current.

These speakers have a flat impedance curve, so they will actually present a somewhat lower impedance to the amp. Now the effect of the phase angles does not show up in the impedance curves.

The problem arises in that because of the phase angles you have the phenomenon of true and apparent power. The true power will be what is consumed, however the current for the apparent power has to be provided by the amp without clipping. In other words at parts of the cycle power consumed is higher than you would think and at other parts of the cycle power is given back. That is in the nature of reactive AC circuits. The difference in true power and apparent power is dependent on the phase angle between voltage and current. The wider the phase angle the greater the current required to provide the apparent power requirement.
Yes I know about the power.. and as I stated somewhat differently, a highly reactive load is much harder to drive than a highly resistive load.

The phase angle of speakers is seldom specified. There has been a lot of discussion over the years in the professional journals about coming up with a spec that truly quantifies the difficulty the load a given speaker presents to an amp. In fact realistic ways of doing this have been developed, but this is heavily resisted by the loudspeaker industry for obvious reasons.
I know all about phase angle and the effects of power delivery. I studied this in university with electrical motor theorey. I've started a thread about this about 3 monthes ago stating tht phase angle needs to be included in speaker specs. The greater the phase angle, the harder it is for the amplifier to drive it.

The MMG speakers are actually quite insensitive. They are specified at 86 db 2.84 volts 1 meter, which would put them at only 83 db 1 watt 1 meter.

Magnepans have always been known to be inefficient as the there is greater space between the conductor (ribbon) and the magnets than in voice coil type speakers.

Since they have a flat four ohm impedance curve, but by the nature of their design, the load must be to some degree reactive, the current required at parts of the cycle will be higher than suggested by ohms law.

That is why Magenplanar loudspeakers do really require a beefy amp. I have heard the Mggies often and like them. They do sound their best when driven by expensive amps. After all is said and done though they are a poor man's electrostatic. In my view good full range electrostatics are superior. However these are expensive complicated, more prone to failure and present difficult capacitative loads to amps.
Thanks for the info on the Magnepans. :)
 
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TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
I never stated that the impedance curve is flat TLS. Please reread my post



Yes I know about the power.. and as I stated somewhat differently, a highly reactive load is much harder to drive than a highly resistive load.



I know all about phase angle and the effects of power delivery. I studied this in university with electrical motor theorey. I've started a thread about this about 3 monthes ago stating tht phase angle needs to be included in speaker specs. The greater the phase angle, the harder it is for the amplifier to drive it.



Thanks for the info on the Magnepans. :)
I slightly miss stated your post. However whether a load is resistive or reactive has nothing to do per se with acoustic output for given power.

The issue is equivalent power for a given spl. The point is that a speaker with nominal impedance of 8 ohms and a sensitivity of 90 db 2.83 Volts 1 meter that drops its impedance down to four ohms below 600 Hz will draw from the amp significantly more power than you would suspect, typically close to double. If the phase angles are wide, it will demand even more current but not actual power.

This makes the whole amp/speaker interface problematic and confusing. This is made worse by the fact that virtually no speaker manufacturer publishes sufficient specification to make much of an assessment of a given speaker to match with any particular amp. So we end up relying on folk law. This really is wholly unacceptable. The solution will require more educated and discerning consumers. This is the last thing speaker manufacturers want.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
I slightly miss stated your post. However whether a load is resistive or reactive has nothing to do per se with acoustic output for given power.

The issue is equivalent power for a given spl. The point is that a speaker with nominal impedance of 8 ohms and a sensitivity of 90 db 2.83 Volts 1 meter that drops its impedance down to four ohms below 600 Hz will draw from the amp significantly more power than you would suspect, typically close to double. If the phase angles are wide, it will demand even more current but not actual power.

This makes the whole amp/speaker interface problematic and confusing. This is made worse by the fact that virtually no speaker manufacturer publishes sufficient specification to make much of an assessment of a given speaker to match with any particular amp. So we end up relying on folk law. This really is wholly unacceptable. The solution will require more educated and discerning consumers. This is the last thing speaker manufacturers want.

No worries... I rather drive a speaker that has a small power factor angle and is 4 ohms than a speaker such as electrostats which are almost purely capacitive in nature, 8 ohms regardless of the sesntivity of the two.

Speaking of electrostats, I should have remembered that speaker model impedance. That would have prevented me from stating the acoustic output part of my post . ;)
 
KEW

KEW

Audioholic Overlord
This makes the whole amp/speaker interface problematic and confusing. This is made worse by the fact that virtually no speaker manufacturer publishes sufficient specification to make much of an assessment of a given speaker to match with any particular amp. So we end up relying on folk law. This really is wholly unacceptable. The solution will require more educated and discerning consumers. This is the last thing speaker manufacturers want.
The other solution is to buy active speakers, letting the manufacturer worry about matching amplification to the speakers, so we can stay fat, dumb, and happy as we listen to good sound!!:D
 
caper26

caper26

Full Audioholic
Hello, Caper, and thank you for the thread revival; no, I haven't decided on one yet, still using my R20's right now, but it's funny you asked this because I was getting ready to start a new thread specifically concentrating on asking questions regarding which speakers would be a definite more audiophile step up from my R20's and are floorstanders, but yet would be a sensible match for my 8555 sonically and budgetary matching wise...
You may want to check out world wide stereo. They have RC-50's on for $350 each...I never had the RC line but energy fan's rave about them...they are one step down from the flagship RC70.
 
P

PearlcorderS701

Banned
You may want to check out world wide stereo. They have RC-50's on for $350 each...I never had the RC line but energy fan's rave about them...they are one step down from the flagship RC70.
Thank you! Please continue firing away with any more suggestions; I have added Energy to the list...

Would Energy be considered a kind of "audiophile step up" from Polk?
 
caper26

caper26

Full Audioholic
Some people claim the RC70 are better sounding than speakers thousands of dollars more expensive, and by some people, I am referring to people who play in classical concerts (in the hundreds or thousands of times) and they listen to these speakers and say they are the only ones that sounds like instruments are in your living room. These are the step down from them, but I think the RC line can be considered 'audiophile' but I cant comment on the comparison to polk...I only listened to them in a store and didn't like them at all. The reg price on that speaker is around $800 each, so $350 is a great price I guess.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Some people claim the RC70 are better sounding than speakers thousands of dollars more expensive, and by some people, I am referring to people who play in classical concerts (in the hundreds or thousands of times) and they listen to these speakers and say they are the only ones that sounds like instruments are in your living room.
That's what I have been trying to tell ADTG about the B&W802D. I could have said the same about my Veritas but then I would be bias as I already own them. The problem is, people don't just go by how much the speaker sounds like instruments in a living room. Perhaps most people go by how they sound to their ears. I do think the RC70 sounds much better than the Martin Logan electrostats that cost twice as much but I have only compared them in the future shop so it may not be a fair comparison.
 
caper26

caper26

Full Audioholic
From all my readings, I haven't had ANYONE say they didn't like the RC70's ! :D The RC50 at $350 ea just sounds like an amazing deal if the OP can get to a store to demo them, then buy em at wwstereo.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
From all my readings, I haven't had ANYONE say they didn't like the RC70's ! :D The RC50 at $350 ea just sounds like an amazing deal if the OP can get to a store to demo them, then buy em at wwstereo.
I personally don't condone this practise. If a salesman is making the effort to set up an audition and is courteous and helpful, then you should pick up the speakers thru the delaer. Using a person in that way is not fair ball. :(
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
That's what I have been trying to tell ADTG about the B&W802D. I could have said the same about my Veritas but then I would be bias as I already own them. The problem is, people don't just go by how much the speaker sounds like instruments in a living room. Perhaps most people go by how they sound to their ears. I do think the RC70 sounds much better than the Martin Logan electrostats that cost twice as much but I have only compared them in the future shop so it may not be a fair comparison.
They carry ML at Futureshop?? :eek: The nearest futur shop to me carries the usual array of speakers but I've never seen MLs. Whne did they start carrying those?
 
its phillip

its phillip

Audioholic Ninja
I personally don't condone this practise. If a salesman is making the effort to set up an audition and is courteous and helpful, then you should pick up the speakers thru the delaer. Using a person in that way is not fair ball. :(
People could just let the salesman know that they want to hear the speakers since a bargain was found online. If he wants to help them out, that's cool. If not, can't really blame him.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
People could just let the salesman know that they want to hear the speakers since a bargain was found online. If he wants to help them out, that's cool. If not, can't really blame him.
Thats fine. You are being upfront about the whole thing. Then the sales person has the choice of either helping or declining you but at least he's not being used.
 
gmichael

gmichael

Audioholic Spartan
Thats fine. You are being upfront about the whole thing. Then the sales person has the choice of either helping or declining you but at least he's not being used.
And it gives him a chance to make his pitch about why it would be better to buy from him. (service, returns etc....)
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
I personally don't condone this practise. If a salesman is making the effort to set up an audition and is courteous and helpful, then you should pick up the speakers thru the delaer. Using a person in that way is not fair ball. :(
People could just let the salesman know that they want to hear the speakers since a bargain was found online. If he wants to help them out, that's cool. If not, can't really blame him.
And it gives him a chance to make his pitch about why it would be better to buy from him. (service, returns etc....)
And this is where the industry is heading... Big box stores with poor sales staff that dont care, Internet sales driving the B&M stores out of business with price, quality of integration going down, people on forums asking how to the program crestron and wire a whole house distribution matrix, ect, ect.. To use a commissioned sales persons time with no intention of negotiation or purchase is wrong.
 

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