Itching to upgrade .. Where to start?

sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
I really like the Ascend CMT-340SE setup that BSA recommended earlier but that doesn't leave room for a better subwoofer. I'd look at look at a 2 phase project either starting with the Ascends and then going back to the well for a Hsu VTF-2 later and tune it to 18hz. Your Klipsch should get plenty loud but it's only rated to 28hz and I like deep bass for movies.

Or you could go with Infinity Primus P363 towers and a PC351 center for $600 form Amazon, and a Hsu VTF-2 for another $580 shipped. For the receiver I'd stretch the budget for a factory re-certified Onkyo TX-NR708 for $450 shipped.
 
BoredSysAdmin

BoredSysAdmin

Audioholic Slumlord
I really like the Ascend CMT-340SE setup that BSA recommended earlier but that doesn't leave room for a better subwoofer. I'd look at look at a 2 phase project either starting with the Ascends and then going back to the well for a Hsu VTF-2 later and tune it to 18hz. Your Klipsch should get plenty loud but it's only rated to 28hz and I like deep bass for movies.

Or you could go with Infinity Primus P363 towers and a PC351 center for $600 form Amazon, and a Hsu VTF-2 for another $580 shipped. For the receiver I'd stretch the budget for a factory re-certified Onkyo TX-NR708 for $450 shipped.
I figured since OP sub doesn't seem to be not that bad and probably out of all existing equipment requires less immediate attention.
Ascends measures extremely well and would provide huge step up from his current flatulence speakers. Once additional budget allows I'd rec going with dual subs like BIC PL-100 and more powerful receiver down the line like refub Onkyo 708 or 807
 
sholling

sholling

Audioholic Ninja
I figured since OP sub doesn't seem to be not that bad and probably out of all existing equipment requires less immediate attention.
Ascends measures extremely well and would provide huge step up from his current flatulence speakers. Once additional budget allows I'd rec going with dual subs like BIC PL-100 and more powerful receiver down the line like refub Onkyo 708 or 807
I'm with you when you say that the biggest hole to fill is the mains and center. I'm a bit of a basshead and filling that hole below 28hz is really-really satisfying when you sit down to watch an action movie and should probably the next step after the mains and center. It's not a big deal with music but it is for action movies. If going duals I'd rather see the OP save a bit longer for dual eD A2-300s or perhaps Bic PL-200s - note I've heard the eDs but only know the Bics by reputation. I also agree that the receiver can wait.

The Ascends don't just measure well they sound really good and should make a huge difference. I have a pair and briefly flirted with the idea of converting the guestroom into a baby theater using CMT-340s. I have no idea why AH has never reviewed them or their baby brothers but they should probably make time in their schedule.

http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/ascend_cmt340se_cbm170se.htm
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
his current flatulence speakers.
Okay, now I know you did that on purpose, and don't give me any of that "oops typo thingy" either.:D

The minimum requirement is the $85 Infinity P163 plus the $279 BIC PL200 subwoofer. Minimum. You can do 2.1, 3.1, 5.1, 7.1.

Best Bang-for-the-buck combo right there.
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Floyd Toole and Sean Olive do NOT believe that every single room should be treated with acoustic panels either.

If you have great speaker designs with great polar responses, and your room is not a beast, chances are you won't need to spend any money on acoustic panels if your speakers are accurate and have great polar responses.
Let's be clear here.

Great speaker designs with great polar response are not room sensitive. They will sound great in any room because the power response heard by the listener will be very natural and represnetative of the content material.

However, rooms still inevitibly cause

1) Bass standing waves (whose axis of causing problems can be minimized with cardioid or dipole radiation at the cost of output, but are still there)

2) unbalanced decay times (IE high frequencies ring for too long or vice versa)

3) comb filtering causing a loss of detail.

A custom designed room or professionally treated will always be optimal when it comes to extracting the most out of any recording. But good speakers can still sound amazing in our every day rooms, except for in the bass region where bass traps (broadband IE 8 to 12 inches of rigid fibreglass and also tuned bass traps) are never a bad idea.


You yourself noticed that the orions, for example, were sensitive to north/south speaker placement. Likewise, you'll find your revels are equally sensitive to east/west placement in the wrong room, because they have a very wide dispersiion pattern, even if the polars are very identical, they're still prone to comb filtering. You'll find that large waveguide speakers like the Gedlee summas, still improve if you treat the ceiling and floor (if OP ever does the michigan visit I suggested, there is an opportunity to see this in action)

As for your experience, which panels did you even use? Are you sure they're even measurably effective panels?
 
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GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I used ATS Acoustics panels:

http://www.atsacoustics.com/item--ATS-Acoustic-Panel-24x48x4--1026.html

Are they too cheap?:eek:

I couldn't afford expensive ones.:(
Unless you stacked about three each and gave them some room from the wall, they're not the most effective bass traps.

They're also absorbers, which i don't think is natural sounding at first reflection points.

Compare the absorption coefficients on those, to these:

http://www.atsacoustics.com/corner-bass-trap-b.html

Still, I do suspect, vertically covering two of your front corners (one panel thick) with the bass panels you do have should still improve your measured in room bass response. Just not as much as you want.

In a tall room like yours, I would buy like, sixteen to twenty of those corner traps and cover every inch of corner in the room, just to start. Then if the room starts to sound dead, add diffusion on the rear wall and on the ceiling.

Then, take those weak acoustic panels you do have, and place them underneath a rug on the floor first reflection points of the Salons.

Before anything though, the first step to any sound system should be the ABILITY TO MEASURE what's going on. SO to the OP, before you spend 1500 on room treatments (or not), being able to measure what's going on in the room is a fundamental place to start.
 
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F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Uh oh...I started something with my whole room treatment post, didn't I? :p

To Acu, what I mainly wanted to say is that I'm not of the opinion that everyone HAS to use acoustic treatments in EVERY room. But by the same token, I can't agree with going the opposite way and saying that most folks shouldn't spend a penny on acoustic treatments.

In the end, it's all about personal enjoyment. And if you prefer the way your system sounds without any acoustic treatments in place, then that's the right way to go! ...for you ;)

But, on the flip side, measurements as well as just my own listening experiences tell me that acoustic treatments can most definitely deliver benefits - and it's just my own opinion that, if one is willing to spend quite large sums of cash on speakers and other gear that measures well, it only makes sense to also consider spending just a fraction of that sum on the room's acoustics as well. And relying on measurements there too in order to determine how best to spend one's money and in what ways the room can best be treated.

My only confusion was in seeing Acu sort of dismiss acoustic treatments. Try 'em, don't like 'em, decide not to use them? I'm totally cool with that. In the end, damn any measurements and enjoy what you enjoy! But I just found it puzzling for Acu to be swayed by measurements of speakers, but not by measurements of room acoustics before and after acoustic treatments are applied. That made me go, "whaaa?" :p

Perhaps we're all complicating the matter too much though. To be completely honest, more than anything else, what convinced my that room treatments were a worthwhile investment was the simple experience of chatting with some friends in my theater room. Prior to having all of the bass traps, diffusors and absorption panels in there, we'd be chatting away while watching a game or playing videogames and our voices would get louder and louder as the night went on and we started to talk over one another (I'm sure others can relate). There'd be a lot of "what did you say?" and "huh?" being asked. And when a loud commercial came on or someone decided to crank up the volume a bit, we'd have to pretty much shout at one another to be heard and understood.

With all of the room treatments in place, the difference was NOT subtle. All of a sudden, we could talk in a downright quiet voice and be perfectly heard and understood. The sound from the TV could be cranked up high, but we could still turn to one another and just talk in a normal voice.

It's that sort of "real-world", dramatic difference that creates an emotional experience that's hard to deny or ignore. We still get loud :p When we're thrashing newbies in Left 4 Dead 2, there's no way our laughs and taunts are going to stay quiet! But gone are all the "what did you say? huh?" interjections. And gone is the sense that we have to get louder and louder as the night goes on, just to be heard and understood.

Maybe if I had truly spectacular speakers, I wouldn't notice any difference from them with bare walls vs. room treatments in place. But when it comes to the experience of just talking to my friends in that room, there's zero chance that I'm going to believe those room treatments aren't making a difference and offering a huge benefit that more than makes up for their modest pricetag.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Well, I guess I'm just not as hardcore as you guys are.:D

Also, I've tried Audyssey XT numerous times without any benefits in my room.

Of course, no room is perfect, just like no speaker is perfect, just like nothing in life is perfect.

There are certain things I'm willing to do, and certain things I'm not willing to do. I'm sure we're all like that.:D

I've done a few things to say that I've done them.

But at the end of the day, I'm extremely happy with my sound system, just like many people are happy with their sound systems - with or without any room treatments.:D

So I'm sticking with my Siegfried Linkwitz room acoustics argument.:D

I recall AJinFL does not believe in room treatments either for most rooms out there.

Too bad he's not on Audioholics anymore.:D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
So I'm sticking with my Siegfried Linkwitz room acoustics argument.:D

I recall AJinFL does not believe in room treatments either for most rooms out there.

Too bad he's not on Audioholics anymore.:D
Believe only what you like to believe, science or not?? :confused::D:)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Believe only what you like to believe, science or not?? :confused::D:)
What?

AJinFL is all about the science.

He buids his own speakers, go to all these Speakers conventions and shows, hangs out with all the big speaker designs gurus, reads up on all the speaker design papers, etc.

He is for real.

Just like Jack Nicholson says, you guys just can't handle the TRUTH.:D:D

Okay?:D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Now I do believe in speaker placements. Why? Because I have seen the difference.

I have not seen any difference with acoustic panels or Room EQ.

Hey, PENG, when I get a new house and get the B&W 800 Diamond, you will have to come over and see.

I might have to get some diffusers and panels and bass traps for the B&Ws since they have crapy polar responses.:D

But, man, those 800 Diamonds look smoking hot! Gotta have 'em.:D
 
J

johnnyblaze313

Enthusiast
Well I went from seeing the classias on sale and impulsively spending 500 on a subtle upgrade to now trying to convince myself into spending $2500+ on a set of kef's, a hsu sub and a onkyo reciever:)

I'm flip flopping all over the place as far as what to buy but the one thing Im certain about is I want new mains, center and a sub just not sure what models yet though...

Thanks for all the suggestions, a few of these speakers I never even heard of and would have totally over looked like the ascends. Very promising reviews and the price have these high on my list. Also the infinity primus price point has me researching those.

All in all I just cant get over how damn sexy those kef's are and I find myself google imaging them a few times a day. But I know I cant buy speakers on looks alone plus at there price I'd wanna go cheaper on a sub (bic)..

Found a higher end retail shop downtown so I'm gonna head out there monday and see how I feel after hearing some different models.

Any chance the kef's ever go onsale? Like black friday or anything
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
Now I do believe in speaker placements. Why? Because I have seen the difference.

I have not seen any difference with acoustic panels or Room EQ.
Well room EQ won't do much about bass suckouts, that's for sure. And your acoustic panels don't seem to do much in the bass.

and I believe your room IIRC is pretty short and narrow, so you probably need a lot more absorption than you use to make a meaningful difference. I don't know if diffusion would even be a good idea in a small room.

I might have to get some diffusers and panels and bass traps for the B&Ws since they have crapy polar responses.:D
The B&Ws, in the bass, will have the same polar response as the revels and KEFs and the rythmik. Only the Orions have different bass polars.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
The B&Ws, in the bass, will have the same polar response as the revels and KEFs and the rythmik. Only the Orions have different bass polars.
I have compared the Orions in 2.0 full range vs. 2.1 w/ D15SE subs.

And I love the sound of 2.1 w/ D15SE.

What does that mean?

I don't know what's good for me?:eek::D:)

Def Tech speakers have ruined my hearing permanently, like ParadigmDawg says?:eek::D
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
trying to convince myself into spending $2500+ on a set of kef's, a hsu sub and a onkyo reciever:)

I just cant get over how damn sexy those kef's are and I find myself google imaging them a few times a day.
OMG!! I guess those kef's are not the sexiest speakers I ever seen, those things are outrageous
Looks aren't the only thing. Speaker measurements aren't the only thing. Room acoustics aren't the only thing.

But I refuse to buy any speakers that I don't think look GOOD!:D

Yeah, those KEF Q900 looks sexy. I love the way they look. The have the "brawn" and the "looks".

But the Q900 also have great speaker measurements on HTM. So they also have the "brains" to go along with their "brawns" and "looks".

I love the way my KEF 201/2s sound. But I have not heard any other KEFs. AJinFL, a very knowledgable speakers guru, have heard the KEF Q900 drivers and he said they sounded good enough for him. To me, that means the KEF Q900 sounds great.

I love buying speakers. But my house and rooms are limited. I need a bigger house. Right now my family room is occupied with the Infinity P362s + BIC PL200 (HSU subwoofer clone). They sound pretty good, but they are kind of ugly compared to the sexy KEF Q900 speakers.:D
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
I have compared the Orions in 2.0 full range vs. 2.1 w/ D15SE subs.

And I love the sound of 2.1 w/ D15SE.

What does that mean?

I don't know what's good for me?:eek::D:)

Def Tech speakers have ruined my hearing permanently, like ParadigmDawg says?:eek::D

I don't know what it means. Go buy a measurement mic so we know what it means.

But when I say bass polar response, I don't just mean 20 to 80hz.

I mean 20 to around 400 to 700+hz.

And of course, by the time you hit 20 to 45hz or so, the room becomes less of a problem and output becomes the bigger probelm. And the Orions are output limited compared to the rythmik, anyways.

But if you've got nulls, and you're missing some bass notes, how would you know it if your only reference is recordings you listen to in the same room? The Orions are the only speaker that loads the room decently in that frequency region, and you SAY they sound exactly the same in the lower bass, but you also have barely listened to them properly setup, and maybe it would be more noticible on different music material.

I would measure the bass. From 20hz to 500hz. Especially the revels.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
I don't know what it means. Go buy a measurement mic so we know what it means.
Nope.

I have a $7 million budget, so I don't have to take any pictures or buy any mic or measure anything.

I just have to ask enough questions to make you believe I'm not a troll.:eek:

You can do that when you have a $7 million budget for just one room.

P.S. I have a $10 million budget for my garage.:eek:
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
What?

AJinFL is all about the science.

He buids his own speakers, go to all these Speakers conventions and shows, hangs out with all the big speaker designs gurus, reads up on all the speaker design papers, etc.

He is for real.

Just like Jack Nicholson says, you guys just can't handle the TRUTH.:D:D

Okay?:D
My question wasn't directed to him, but to you.:D
 

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