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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Now I do believe in speaker placements. Why? Because I have seen the difference.

I have not seen any difference with acoustic panels or Room EQ.

Hey, PENG, when I get a new house and get the B&W 800 Diamond, you will have to come over and see.

I might have to get some diffusers and panels and bass traps for the B&Ws since they have crapy polar responses.:D

But, man, those 800 Diamonds look smoking hot! Gotta have 'em.:D
You may need those stuff not only for the 800D but also for a real grand piano. Then again, you may not..
 
GranteedEV

GranteedEV

Audioholic Ninja
He buids his own speakers, go to all these Speakers conventions and shows, hangs out with all the big speaker designs gurus, reads up on all the speaker design papers, etc.
Okay, so AJinFLA makes great speakers. What do they measure like, ungated, in HIS room? Frequency response, decay, anything.

You KNOW I'm huge on great speakers and how they are least sensitive to reflections etc. You know I think good speakers are the most important thing and you know that I have an idea of what measurements make a good speaker that sounds great in many rooms.

But that's only true to the extent that your speaker is the bottleneck. In your case, ADTG, is the speaker the bottleneck anymore? You've seen the measurements of the Salons, now put it to the test. Measure the frequency response of your speakers in your room, gated to 6ms, then 20ms, then 500ms. Prove to us that you don't have any problems in your room. No bass peaks/valleys, no comb filtering in the first 20ms, no plenty of diffussed, frequency independant decay. Measure the ETC.

Because right now you're speaking similar to a total subjectivist about to buy $20,000 tube amps mated to $10000 B&W speakers, thinking that the speakers are the best in the world, and the amp is the only thing that can make them better. :eek: - in your case you're saying the speakers are the best in the world, and there's no weak link in your setup anymore. You're at a point where you have, if not THE, one of the best measurable speakers in the world (Revel Salon2).

Show us that your room is not doing anything bad to the sound of the Salons, PERIOD.

With all that said, I mostly am ON your side, not FirstReflection's side, that for a 5k budget, most of it should be spent on speakers with outstanding polar response, not random acoustic panels, because to a point, the speakers are always the first bottleneck, even before the room. Sorry, the most treated room in the world WON'T make bad speakers sound good, although it'll make most hi-fi speakers sound less bad.

But when you hit a point of "speakers can barely get better" - it just seems silly to think that your room is getting the most out of those speakers. The room has to be a lot more thorough than a few acoustic panels IN MY OPINION. - but nor does that mean making it into a silly audiophile room with all reflections absorbed.

IIRC, even the harman double blind listening room, is custom designed just not padded down. I recall it has its share of diffusion.

Heck, treatments aren't just about speakers. I've been to university lecture rooms that have incognito absorption panels along the walls. I first noticed this walking by them and all of a sudden you feel like one of your ears is out of whack and it's an uncomfortable feeling. I think rooms are a problem for more than just speakers.

I just don't think that speakers should be treated.

Room treatments, not speaker treatments. Scientifically planned and thorough, not half-assed Hi-Fi B.S.
 
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P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Okay, so AJinFLA makes great speakers. What do they measure like, ungated, in HIS room? Frequency response, decay, anything.

You KNOW I'm huge on great speakers and how they are least sensitive to reflections etc. You know I think good speakers are the most important thing and you know that I have an idea of what measurements make a good speaker that sounds great in many rooms.

But that's only true to the extent that your speaker is the bottleneck. In your case, ADTG, is the speaker the bottleneck anymore? You've seen the measurements of the Salons, now put it to the test. Measure the frequency response of your speakers in your room, gated to 6ms, then 20ms, then 500ms. Prove to us that you don't have any problems in your room. No bass peaks/valleys, no comb filtering in the first 20ms, no plenty of diffussed, frequency independant decay. Measure the ETC.

Because right now you're speaking similar to a total subjectivist about to buy $20,000 tube amps mated to $10000 B&W speakers, thinking that the speakers are the best in the world, and the amp is the only thing that can make them better. :eek: - in your case you're saying the speakers are the best in the world, and there's no weak link in your setup anymore. You're at a point where you have, if not THE, one of the best measurable speakers in the world (Revel Salon2).

Show us that your room is not doing anything bad to the sound of the Salons, PERIOD.
Wow, you said pretty much what I was trying to say all along but I failed. You are a great communicator!! Thanks.
 
3db

3db

Audioholic Slumlord
If you have great speaker designs with great polar responses, and your room is not a beast, chances are you won't need to spend any money on acoustic panels if your speakers are accurate and have great polar responses.
You siad the key word...if your room is not a beast.. I'm sticking to my gun. A great speaker will still sound like **** in a bad room, maybe not as bas a a poorly designed speaker, but not good either. You may want to argue with physics but the rules and laws of physics will ALWAYs win. Understanding them will help one design a room to minimize those affects and bring out the best in what a speaker has to offer.
 
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AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Okay, so I take it back.:D

The rooms can affect the sound.

But for a $3,000 budget, how much do you think a person should spend on room treatments and how much on speakers?
 
J

johnnyblaze313

Enthusiast
Well vanns said no go on the buy 2 towers get a free center sale, ricky said the deal already ended:-/ He took my # and said he will call when the next sale goes on..

acc4less now has the black q900's but now I feel like Im buying open box for the same price I could have got brand new @ the vanns sale.

At first look I hated the primus but the more I look at them and read about them I learned to love them especially for the $

I love the look of the emp's and feel like there only $200 more for the blemished models but not sure if these are the right speakers for movie and gaming effects??

Long story short Im still @ square 1 with my decision.

I do have the subs narrowed down to either the ed a3-250 or the bic pl 200..
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Just wait until the next sale and get the KEF Q900.

By then Stereophile will have published their review on the Q900 and give you something else to base you decisions on.:D
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
Kal Rubinson wrote about the KEF Q900 he just reviewed in the September issue of Stereophile:

"There is no other speaker in that range (sub $2K) that I prefer to the KEF Q900."

John Atkinson wrote:

"Despite its affordable price, KEF's Q900 offers superb measured performance."



So it looks like the Q900 gets a standing ovation in the $2K speaker range!

"SUPERB MEASURED PERFORMANCE" is the ELITE status among speakers. A lot of speakers that cost 10 times more than the Q900 don't even get that kind of praise from John Atkinson!:D
 
J

johnnyblaze313

Enthusiast
Thanks for the heads up on that review Deftech...

I'm gonna wait it out for a sale on these, or till I just cant be without them another day :) What ever comes first...
 
F

FirstReflection

AV Rant Co-Host
Okay, so I take it back.:D

The rooms can affect the sound.

But for a $3,000 budget, how much do you think a person should spend on room treatments and how much on speakers?
Heh - I'd actually really love to read your experiences if you ever decide to do a really thorough measurement and acoustic treating of your room, Acu! Perhaps you could add that to your list in addition to some of the drool-worthy, mega-buck speakers that you get to enjoy! All the measurements and scientific theory in the world can't match the convincing nature of first-hand experience. So I'd really love for you to make a real go (not just four little bass traps :p ) and let us all know how it goes for you!

With a smaller budget, like $3000, I have to agree that it makes more sense to pour all of that money into the speakers and forego acoustic treatments for the time being. But that's why I said the OP's $5000 budget is deceivingly "tricky". It's just enough of a budget to start considering acoustic treatments, IMO. But probably not a large enough budget to really do room treatments properly while still getting really excellent speakers.

I threw my original recommendations out there because I just wanted the OP and other readers to at least consider room acoustics. It's an area that so many people just completely overlook altogether! I can get behind the recommendation that with only $5000 to spend, that budget would be better used on better speakers and dual subwoofers rather than any room treatments. I can go along with that recommendation because there are very valid arguments for doing things that way and waiting until you have the money to really measure and treat the room fully!

But at the same time, lots of people have really bad acoustic environments. Bad enough that going from a $1500 set of speakers to a $3000 set of speakers with no room treatments isn't going to offer as much benefit as sticking with the $1500 set of speakers and spending the $1500 balance on acoustic panels and bass traps. That's the consideration that I wanted the OP and other readers to make. That $5000 budget makes it a very tough decision. But that's why I so strongly suggested the free Auralex Room Analysis. If the OP has a fairly "standard" room, without too many acoustic problems, then it would make more sense to spend the full budget just on speakers, subs, receiver and TV and leave acoustic treatments for later. But if Auralex can easily predict some major issues, then I think it makes sense to try and address those issues at least somewhat with room treatments, and sacrifice a little bit on the budget for the speakers so that the most glaring issues of the system as a whole (room + gear) can be addressed. When speakers such as the EMP Tek package are still affordable, even with room treatments paid for, it seems like a reasonable compromise since the OP could still get some very good speakers!

So it comes back to taking advantage of that free Room Analysis from Auralex. To me, that's a "no brainer". If they can easily identify some probable acoustic issues, and they can offer suggestions for how those issues can be improved, I think it's worthy of at least consideration ;)
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
So it comes back to taking advantage of that free Room Analysis from Auralex. To me, that's a "no brainer". If they can easily identify some probable acoustic issues, and they can offer suggestions for how those issues can be improved, I think it's worthy of at least consideration ;)
I think I may try that out!:D

Of course, if I try out that free analysis, I may buy whatever they recommend.

What Auralex products on Amazon.com do you like?

I prefer to buy from amazon because if they don't WORK, I can return them to Amazon. :D
 

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