isolation devices (Mechanical energy drain device)

[dropbear]

I was wondering if any here have played with and validated the benefits of a mechanical isolation device?

I am consdiering the Boston-Audio TuneBlocks for some of my equipment. A review can be found here... http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0405/bostonaudiotuneblocks.htm

I plan to initially get a set and place under my Denon SACD/DVD player and then perhaps under my Denon AVR3805.

Has anyone here tried this particular brand? Any thoughts, comments?

 

[jaxvon]

I really can't see any benefit underneath a digital component. As long as it isn't being subjected to an earthquake, it will read the 1s and 0s just fine. The same goes for any audio component really. It might stop microphonic noise pickup, but then again, if a unit is picking up vibration noise, then it's not designed well anyway. The only component I could see these making an ounce of difference on is a turntable, as it is a mechanical device.

 

[mtrycrafts]

I was wondering if any here have played with and validated the benefits of a mechanical isolation device?

I am consdiering the Boston-Audio TuneBlocks for some of my equipment. A review can be found here... http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0405/bostonaudiotuneblocks.htm

I plan to initially get a set and place under my Denon SACD/DVD player and then perhaps under my Denon AVR3805.

Has anyone here tried this particular brand? Any thoughts, comments?

Complete BS, voodoo, junk, snake oil claims. Stay away, far away.

Ask the company for specs of component outputs before and after installation. Anything less is just junk. I bet they have ZERO such data and will tell you just to listen.

 

[Buckle-meister]

What about hi-fi stands then? Why do we have stands with spikes rather than large rounded feet?, and glass (isolated by rubber shims) rather than wooden shelves? The stand doesn't produce sound as with a speaker (Doh!).

I thought the idea was to prevent even miniscule vibrations from the speakers travelling through the floor, up the stand and back to the hi-fi components. I mean, come on, CD players are pretty delicate machines. I know the level of vibration we're talking about here is tiny, but then, so is the width of the track on a CD layer.

All I'm saying, is that I wouldn't have thought that it would take much to cause error correction algorithms to be called upon. Why cause this if you don't have to?

Regards

 

[jaxvon]

I neglected to include speakers. These, seeing how they are electro-mechanical devices, will also benefit from isolation.

As far as CD players go, any good component should have enough vibration damping built into the chassis and feet to keep it from skipping.

 

[Resident Loser]

The only component...

...I ever concerned myself with isolating was, and still is, my TT...since it operates by means of vibrations, it makes sense to eliminate outside sources that woud cause mistracking or other mechanical feedback related issues...

Tubed gear MAY become microphonic, but when it does, generally speaking, it's time for new tubes...solid-state devices do not exhibit such tendencies...

Speaker spikes? They help maintain stability of the loudspeakers themselves(particularly on rugs) AND while they do decouple them from potential structure-borne feedback paths, their intent is mostly to improve the performance of the speaker systems; any isolation from other components(such as TTs) while legit, is a mere by-product of the original premise. Nowadays, since few have TTs, isolating other components, as many things audiophilac do, has become a hyped-up "selling point"...and that's how mythology is born.

CDPs??? Yes, they are electro-mechanical...BUT, save for the spindle, there is no real physical contact between software and hardware...unless of course you consider the photons emitted and received by the laser/optical sensor to be "contact" on anything higher than a quantum level...certainly not in terms most would consider as physical...

Take a look at the block diagram for a CDP...error correction doesn't just "happen" in response to outside forces, it is constant, it's always there...it helps keep the arm perpendicular to the tracks. The discs themselves are not perfect...and don't forget playback isn't in real time as it is in analog... CIRC constantly compares and corrects the bitstream...HOWEVER it can't work miracles...if too much data is lost, say due to a solid whack, poof! no signal...some portable players have additional buffers which hold a certain amount of data to help eliminate dropouts for joggers, etc. but they too have limitations...keep whackin' and there is no recovery ability.

SOOO...sandbags, bricks and proprietary combinations of bubinga wood and cryogenically-treated tungsten-steel balls, while possibly have isolating properties, are simply solutions that address non-issues IMHO.

 

[Buckle-meister]

Tubed gear...

I often see references to tubes. Is this the same thing as valves?

Speaker spikes? They help maintain stability of the loudspeakers themselves(particularly on rugs) AND while they do decouple them from potential structure-borne feedback paths, their intent is mostly to improve the performance of the speaker systems.

Can you explain how the spikes improve the performance please?

Regards

 

[jaxvon]

Yes, tubes = valves in the audio world.

 

[WmAx]

Speaker spikes? They help maintain stability of the loudspeakers themselves(particularly on rugs) AND while they do decouple them from potential structure-borne feedback paths,

Do you intend to state that spikes mechanically de-couple objects? Or is this a mis-understanding?

-Chris

 

[jaxvon]

Wouldn't spikes help to couple the speaker to the floor, thereby increasing the effective mass of the speaker cabinet and making it more resistive to motion from the movement of the drivers?

 

[WmAx]

Wouldn't spikes help to couple the speaker to the floor, thereby increasing the effective mass of the speaker cabinet and making it more resistive to motion from the movement of the drivers?

Yes, spikes will increase the effective coupling to the floor. They will also reduce resisitive motion from movement of the drivers. However, the motion induced from the drivers in any oridinary circumstance is extremely small. If you have a loose coupling that has a resonance within the used band, and this coupling has a very high Q, then the motion will increase substantially, but still remain very small, unless the drivers are of extraordinary high mass relative to the cabinet mass. Also note that coupling a speaker to a joiced wood floor that has a significant resonance may excite the floor resonance at a higher amplitude as compared to a de-coupled arrangement.

Please refer to these reference-quality posts by veteran loudspeaker engineer, Richard Pierce, where he explains every issue in-depth throughout the discussion:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.audio.high-end/browse_thread/thread/95cdc48153f2e0c8/a9a9946daa5b3e66?q=speaker+movement+suspended+in+air&rnum=2&hl=en#a9a9946daa5b3e66

-Chris

 

[mtrycrafts]

What about hi-fi stands then? Why do we have stands with spikes rather than large rounded feet?, and glass (isolated by rubber shims) rather than wooden shelves? The stand doesn't produce sound as with a speaker (Doh!).

I thought the idea was to prevent even miniscule vibrations from the speakers travelling through the floor, up the stand and back to the hi-fi components. I mean, come on, CD players are pretty delicate machines. I know the level of vibration we're talking about here is tiny, but then, so is the width of the track on a CD layer.

All I'm saying, is that I wouldn't have thought that it would take much to cause error correction algorithms to be called upon. Why cause this if you don't have to?

Regards

Yopu are lumping things here that is irrelevant to that gizmo they are selling to isolate components, especially solid state. The themselves are not affected by the amount of vibration in your home audio system.
Spikes are good on carpet to penetrate to the hard surface so it doesn't rock and fall over.
Glass shelves may resonate and give a physical noise, different from a component picking up noises and inducing it into the audio chain. Now if the component cabinent resonates, a poor construction, then you need to fix that problem directly, not by those feet.

CD players are not delicate, unless they mistrack. that is th eonly effect of induced vibrations, period. If that happens so easilly, get a better player

Error correction algorythms do not cause audible problem until the errors are so huge that they stop the signal path. Anything less is just audio voodoo about its effect on sound so don't worry about it. Worry about room acoustics, not the non issues

 

[mtrycrafts]

Please refer to these reference-quality posts by veteran loudspeaker engineer, Richard Pierce, where he explains every issue in-depth throughout the discussion:

http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.audio.high-end/browse_thread/thread/95cdc48153f2e0c8/a9a9946daa5b3e66?q=speaker+movement+suspended+in+air&rnum=2&hl=en#a9a9946daa5b3e66

-Chris

I have that link Why do I keep forgeting it?
I have too many to keep track, LOL. Good find and post.

 

[Tom Andry]

no one has complained about imaging problems because the air is not absolutely still

My favorite line from the above link. Though I would add the word "yet" on to the end.

 

[Resident Loser]

It's my understanding...

Do you intend to state that spikes mechanically de-couple objects? Or is this a mis-understanding?

-Chris

...that they do so "selectively"...by reducing the contact area from "X amount" of sq. inches to four small contact points per enclosure...in essence decoupling the larger area(which might transmit a greater frequency range) by a more direct coupling of a smaller one...say, for example one square foot(144 sq. in.) to around 1/8th sq. in.

I realize(and agree, to a point) that it seems odd to "disconnect" by means of a more potent(but more concentrated) "connect" but it also seems plausible; sorta' like the premise of a snowshoe in reverse...if that makes any sense...

Then, of course, there is the Newtonian aspect and the possible Doppler effect with regard to rugs...

Admittedly, not having any actual experience with(or perceived need of) them puts me at somewhat of a disadvantage, but theorizing will have to suffice until someone can provide any meaningful measurements as to their efficacy.

jimHJJ(...or perhaps, it's my MIS-understanding...)

 

[WmAx]

...that they do so "selectively"...by reducing the contact area from "X amount" of sq. inches to four small contact points per enclosure...in essence decoupling the larger area(which might transmit a greater frequency range) by a more direct coupling of a smaller one...say, for example one square foot(144 sq. in.) to around 1/8th sq. in.

Of course, it is a dynamic situation. But in all practical means, you are simply reducing the surface area in exchange for the inverse proportion of weight per area. E.G.; 10 lbs to 1 square inch contact would increase to 40lbs if surface area was decreased to 0.25 square inch. If you going to couple something with hard/dense points, though, a smaller point is usually desirable to a larger area, because the small points tend to embed/couple better, if the feet and surface are not perfectly uniform[which they never are]. It is possible to achieve a buzz or other effect due to a barely-coupled joint at certain frequencies.

-Chris

 

[Dan Banquer]

Speaker spikes

I found that by putting a set of spikes under the speaker it did seem to help and clean up the midrange. I do have a pretty "warped" old floor and I suspect that is/was the real issue. I also read over the old thread from Richard Pierce, who is very precise and is usually correct. I don't recall from the that thread him covering the "warped" floor issue. Did I miss something?
d.b.

 

[dropbear]

Well, many thanks for the feedback on isolation devices both for components and speakers.

I still believe that in some cases isolation devices do have some merit, moreso in speakers and less so in components, especially those where there are moving parts eg CD / DVD players (TT aside ok)

Exerting a given weight through a small conduit (spike) can and does produce audible affects of which vary from system to system. Whether they can be measured is beside the point as at the end of the day, disgarding ones belief system or at least understanding how ones belief system may work, if it sounds right then that is they way to go for YOU.

If you can isolate a players mechanism by reducing its affects on your rack or surrounding components then this can only be a good thing?

I dont have any such problem most of the time though some (and I say this loosly), some discs, have a tendency to be a bit noisier in the players spindle mechanism than others. My old LaserDisc player, spinning those large heavy discs, is a classic example; spinning this size disc is like a fly-wheel effect. Even though DVD/CDs are smaller their fly-wheel effect, being less, can still be prevalent even if we are not aware of it. So, by focusing a components point of contact, as can be demonstarted in a loudspeaker, should have some marginal effect on cleaning up various parts of the audible spectrum.

I do understand the merits that modern technology throws into these players with error correction circuits and the like but it is arguable that the less error correction a player needs to work through to pass the signal over to your amplfier/processor then surely the better net result should be.

now..let the forum continue... hehe

 

[WmAx]

II also read over the old thread from Richard Pierce, who is very precise and is usually correct. I don't recall from the that thread him covering the "warped" floor issue. Did I miss something?
d.b.

I referenced the Pierce thread because it was directly relevant to this thread. However, when I mentioned surface uniformity, I was not referring to the Pierce thread.

-Chris

 

[Resident Loser]

Well...

Of course, it is a dynamic situation. But in all practical means, you are simply reducing the surface area in exchange for the inverse proportion of weight per area. E.G.; 10 lbs to 1 square inch contact would increase to 40lbs if surface area was decreased to 0.25 square inch. If you going to couple something with hard/dense points, though, a smaller point is usually desirable to a larger area, because the small points tend to embed/couple better, if the feet and surface are not perfectly uniform[which they never are]. It is possible to achieve a buzz or other effect due to a barely-coupled joint at certain frequencies.

-Chris

...not wantin' to be a PITA(I know, I know, that ship has already left the dock) let me see if I can take this a step further....

Everything can conduct sound waves, some things better than others...if you have a loudspeaker cabinet, the carcass, whether it be of wood, MDF or whatever will conduct a certain level and bandwidth of vibrations...if it is placed directly on the floor(particularly one consisting of a surface floor, sub-floor, joists etc.) an amount of that vibration will be transferred to it...obviously(material dependent) there will be a limit to the resonant frequencies that will make the transition but, above that point I would think things will fall off fairly sharply.

Now, if you reduce that footprint by using our spikes, while the mass would be concentrated on those four points, the transferrence surface would also be reduced...in my mind, I would suspect the frequencies that could be conducted would also be reduced in bandwidth. Additionally, given the fact that we are interrupting that the wood-to-wood conduction by introduction of a dis-similar(an much denser)material(probably brass) that the amplitude of those remaining frequencies would be attenuated to a great extent...

I also think the conical shape would have a hand in this reduction. Perhaps it's simply a flight of fancy but, if one takes into account the early acoustical recording transducers, a large, conical horn transformed the performers sound waves into ones of less amplitude and finally into the wiggles and squiggles(how's that for tech-talk?) described by the cutting stylus into the grooves of the wax cylinders or early disks...insofar as amplitude is concerned, there would seem to be some form of analogy that could be derived from this that might apply. Even though a solid(in this case) wouldn't there be some sort of "funneling" effect? I suspect so...FWIW

As time permits, and with materials I probably have on hand, I hope to conduct some rudimentary experiments to either confirm or disabuse myself of these suspicions.

jimHJJ(...or maybe I'm just nuts!...)