Is There a Breaking-in Period for an Amplifier?

lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Well, if the department store amp sounded the same, that would be a problem. I am a Parasound dealer and when I went from a Denon AVR-2311CI to a P5 preamp/A23 power amp combo, I DID hear a difference. A big difference. The Denon's amplifier was not as powerful, the sound was better and I'm not someone who hears something for a few minutes and decides that it makes me a better person. However, I changed two pieces, not just one, so I can't say with certainty that it was one or the other- I think it was both. That said, I still have the A23 in my system and it still has more balls than it did with the Denon, so that says something.

I think the whole "You need to use them with the right equipment" is one of the most condescending things I have heard in AV. That, alone, will make me avoid buying something.
Let's just say her system with the Parasound amp was more likely limited by her speakers and their placement as to making any particular impressions, altho I've heard gear in a store hooked up to a Parasound amp and while nice, nothing particularly remarkable. I've also heard my own various avrs/amps pulled in and out of my own setups and can't attribute anything as a big difference sq wise simply due the amp section.
 
Bucknekked

Bucknekked

Audioholic Samurai
People's perceptions change much more radically than electronics do, just considering moods and emotions. Your hearing can change relevant to the amount of snot or ear wax you may have in your head on any given day. Your hearing can change just from moving from an upright to a reclined position.
Mrboat
I agree with every word you said. The temptation, is to just say it all again. Good stuff.
I started a thread on this very topic of people's perceptions being the biggest variable in the whole listening experience some months ago. What surprised me was the number of folks who did not agree. A number of folks did indeed think they don't vary in how they hear their music. On top of that, many mentions of the "reference system" that of course never varies in its perfection.

Your challenge is well taken. Listen to the same piece of music 3 days in a row and its likely to sound a wee bit different, or very different, each time depending on how much distraction is going on inside your head. It isn't the hardware that's changing. Its the icky gewy blob between your ears.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
Of course they may be affected by Burn-In (what EEs call "break-in"). They consist of analog devices that change value with time and temperature until stabilized. Whether it's discreet circuitry, integrated circuits ("chips") or even CPUs or ADC/DAC's, they all consist of transistors, diodes, resistors, capacitors, transformers, inductors ... well, you get the idea. Stubbornly analog, and strictly obeying the laws of Physics.

There is a reason why 95% of all failures happen in the first 24 hours of operation, the majority of the remainder in the next 30 days, why almost all amplifier failures occur on initial power on, regardless of the age of the device, and so on.

It's only because audio gear's various states of operation are, well, audible, that we notice. The same effects happen to your microwave oven out of the box and your typical blender or portable heater. None will operate with the same measured performance at 1 minute after initial startup vs some much longer period, which is determined by the devices and complexity of the circuit.

It is what it is. A properly made audio component shouldn't sound terrible upon first startup, although I have heard some that do. Once things settle in (that is, after "Break-In") you might notice a difference in the first 30 minutes or so as well. It's dependent on the particular circuit and the parts tolerance (read: "cost").

No competent test lab will measure a device until it has run for a certain period of time ... even the precision measuring equipment has poor tolerances until it's been powered up for a certain amount of time (standard practice is 1 hour; if Audio Precision, Agilent, Keithley and Tektronix say to wait, there's a reason, trust me).

It's why half the devices in your home have standby power applied, using electricity while sitting there doing nothing beyond being plugged into the wall. It's why when you buy transistors or op-amps or resistors from the manufacturer they specify a temperature where the specifications are valid, and why capacitors ship from the factory at a different capacitance than they will exhibit in operation after installation; they literally calculate how much time is expected to pass before they can be shipped to the distributor and then to the end user, and what capacitance they are expected to exhibit after about three months time, not the day they leave the factory.

To argue otherwise is to argue against the laws of Physics, and they don't change just because you don't believe they can.

The solution is quite simple ... use the gear you buy, and enjoy the music they produce. Do some dishes while you play your system at a low-ish level before sitting down and doing some serious listening; put that streaming subscription to use, and stop worrying (there's nothing you can do about it beyond using the equipment itself. So do that).
 
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Dale Doback

Dale Doback

Junior Audioholic
Well, also, you could switch out my system with a million dollar system and when I get home and first sit down to listen, my brain will say, "Hey, wait a minute, something's wrong. What did you do?" I think it's like a 'Stereogram' where you stare at a 3d image until the image pops out. Could be the same with audio imagery.? Just a thought. Anyway, I know anytime I make a change I have to give it at least a few hours to make any judgement.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Well, I would not hook up my boomboxes to that, so, in that case it is correct. ;) :D

Oh, wait, it might destroy my boxes. :D
I suppose no use in a car either.
You could, but it would definitely be best with some kind of bullcrap cables between them. :D

I like the enclosure for your screen.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
You could, but it would definitely be best with some kind of bullcrap cables between them. :D

I like the enclosure for your screen.
Do you have a link to those cables? May need to try them but I would not rip out my old cables. I am really used to it. ;)

Thanks. Can you see enough details? I can certainly get other angles to post just for you. :)
 
Mikado463

Mikado463

Audioholic Spartan
Of course they may be affected by Burn-In (what EEs call "break-in"). They consist of analog devices that change value with time and temperature until stabilized. Whether it's discreet circuitry, integrated circuits ("chips") or even CPUs or ADC/DAC's, they all consist of transistors, diodes, resistors, capacitors, transformers, inductors ... well, you get the idea. Stubbornly analog, and strictly obeying the laws of Physics.

There is a reason why 95% of all failures happen in the first 24 hours of operation, the majority of the remainder in the next 30 days, why almost all amplifier failures occur on initial power on, regardless of the age of the device, and so on.

It's only because audio gear's various states of operation are, well, audible, that we notice. The same effects happen to your microwave oven out of the box and your typical blender or portable heater. None will operate with the same measured performance at 1 minute after initial startup vs some much longer period, which is determined by the devices and complexity of the circuit.

It is what it is. A properly made audio component shouldn't sound terrible upon first startup, although I have heard some that do. Once things settle in (that is, after "Break-In") you might notice a difference in the first 30 minutes or so as well. It's dependent on the particular circuit and the parts tolerance (read: "cost").

No competent test lab will measure a device until it has run for a certain period of time ... even the precision measuring equipment has poor tolerances until it's been powered up for a certain amount of time (standard practice is 1 hour; if Audio Precision, Agilent, Keithley and Tektronix say to wait, there's a reason, trust me).

It's why half the devices in your home have standby power applied, using electricity while sitting there doing nothing beyond being plugged into the wall. It's why when you buy transistors or op-amps or resistors from the manufacturer they specify a temperature where the specifications are valid, and why capacitors ship from the factory at a different capacitance than they will exhibit in operation after installation; they literally calculate how much time is expected to pass before they can be shipped to the distributor and then to the end user, and what capacitance they are expected to exhibit after about three months time, not the day they leave the factory.

To argue otherwise is to argue against the laws of Physics, and they don't change just because you don't believe they can.

The solution is quite simple ... use the gear you buy, and enjoy the music they produce. Do some dishes while you play your system at a low-ish level before sitting down and doing some serious listening; put that streaming subscription to use, and stop worrying (there's nothing you can do about it beyond using the equipment itself. So do that).
Johnny, I'll buy into that logic !
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
That's funny, I did study thermodynamics in college and university, and therefore know that it has little to do with metal expansion that is covered in high school physics.:D. Thermodynamics is more about heat, energy and work.
Yeah, I took Thermodynamics during one Summer. All I can remember was calculating the transfer of energy in engines or similar.

Definitely nothing about metals shrinking and expanding. Maybe that was Engineering Strengths and Materials?
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
Mrboat
I agree with every word you said. The temptation, is to just say it all again. Good stuff.
I started a thread on this very topic of people's perceptions being the biggest variable in the whole listening experience some months ago. What surprised me was the number of folks who did not agree. A number of folks did indeed think they don't vary in how they hear their music. On top of that, many mentions of the "reference system" that of course never varies in its perfection.

Your challenge is well taken. Listen to the same piece of music 3 days in a row and its likely to sound a wee bit different, or very different, each time depending on how much distraction is going on inside your head. It isn't the hardware that's changing. Its the icky gewy blob between your ears.
It's the audible changes that always seem to somehow 'conveniently' get better after "break-in," in spite of the different directions/levels such an effect could go after the fact. The unit could have been at it's optimum on the initial power-up and went somewhat south from there for all we know.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Do you have a link to those cables? May need to try them but I would not rip out my old cables. I am really used to it. ;)

Thanks. Can you see enough details? I can certainly get other angles to post just for you. :)
Here's a great example-

https://soundapproach.com/audioquest-wel-signature-speaker-cables-pair.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIiKygy66-1wIVgYqzCh0VVAopEAYYAiABEgIIzPD_BwE

And here's a whole list of stupid-
http://most-expensive.com/audio-cables

At first, I though it was a cool looking beam, but then I saw the slot in the bottom- nice way to do that.
 
highfigh

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Yeah, I took Thermodynamics during one Summer. All I can remember was calculating the transfer of energy in engines or similar.

Definitely nothing about metals shrinking and expanding. Maybe that was Engineering Strengths and Materials?
What's the coefficient of expansion for concrete? I can't recall it, but I remember that it has a lot of zeros.
 
AcuDefTechGuy

AcuDefTechGuy

Audioholic Jedi
What's the coefficient of expansion for concrete? I can't recall it, but I remember that it has a lot of zeros.
Well, you see, I changed major from Civil Engineering to Pharmacy right after Rigid Body Mechanics, so I never took Strengths and Materials, but I knew it was the next course up. I think I still have the textbook, but, of course, I never opened it. :D
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
What's the coefficient of expansion for concrete? I can't recall it, but I remember that it has a lot of zeros.
It depends on the mix obviously, but should be in handbooks and likely Googleable.
 
Johnny2Bad

Johnny2Bad

Audioholic Chief
It's the audible changes that always seem to somehow 'conveniently' get better after "break-in," in spite of the different directions/levels such an effect could go after the fact. The unit could have been at it's optimum on the initial power-up and went somewhat south from there for all we know.
Maybe, if the designer is an incompetent moron. Passive and active component manufacturers provide data sheets for a reason. If you come across such a product, run, don't walk, away from it and everything that company touches.

I will concede that we do sometimes come across such products that use digital logic, because for some reason engineers who plan to live in the world of software and logic don't only forget that they are dealing with analog electronics, they have little knowledge of analog circuitry. They picked a bad time to catch some ZZZ's in class. I have even run across some who don't know Ohm's Law. Tragic error.

That kind of person will design logic circuits based on the simulation, which is never correct; real parts don't behave that way. You can, with a lot of work or a lucky model, find simulation data that takes into account the typical behaviour, but it's not guaranteed; you may be working with a sim that assumes perfect parts; perfect parts don't actually exist in the real world.

(Data sheets generally spec parts at 25C [77F]. Strictly speaking they use degrees Kelvin, but it works out to the same thing. Capacitors are a little different; they are rated for 85 or 105C but the same thing applies, except operating temperature is expected to be lower, not higher, than the data sheet. If you just read the tables, versus studying the graphs which do represent temperature values, you will miss how the part will operate at some other temperature, temperatures typical inside an enclosure with operating circuits).

For example, the USB power is *supposed to be* 5V with logic states changing at 1V and 4V. If the power supply puts out 5.2V or 4.8V, your logic state voltages change. This *will* introduce errors. Somewhat on topic, HDMI is a one-way protocol; the receiving device has no way to tell the transmitting device it's having trouble deciphering the data stream (which is an analog stream, even though it represents digital data).

HDMI is considered in spec if there is one data error every 8 seconds (with a 1080p data stream; it goes up or down depending on the data rate). In practical terms this is inconsequential if in spec (the bad pixels won't be onscreen long enough to be noticed with human vision), but will be a problem if the data is somehow corrupted; if the characteristic impedance is badly mismatched, etc. because the error rate can increase rapidly. This is one reason why you want a decent HDMI cable (or USB cable, etc); no need for snake oil but a certain level of quality is a minimal requirement.

How well or how poorly these errors are tolerated requires a solid background in analog theory, something that seems rare amongst the "bits is bits" crowd.

Apologies for the rant, but it feels good to get it out of my system ;-)
 
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panteragstk

panteragstk

Audioholic Warlord
I hawe seen this discussions - its obvious there is a break in periode. Study thermodynamics? Now i learned that many substrances like metals expands while heated , and contracts coldening- and then gets different in size... So course impossible too see- but point is: it changes physicaly MEASURABLY a little components, this is small but is it audible - yes i think it is. Thoose who say "nothing measureble physicaly changes" are are simply wrong - metal changes by warm up and scrinkinage as i beleave!
Man, first post since registering in 2008? Really biding time for that response.

Also, mentioning thermodynamics then typing the word "coldening" takes away from credibility.

As for the rest of this discussion, I'd really like to see if there is any measurable merit to this argument. It would be very interesting if an amp performed differently after being subjected to a difficult load during a specific amount of "break in" time. Measure before and after. We'd have an idea of an answer.

This seems like something the AH staff could do easily enough. Granted, I'm willing to be if they told the manufacturer what the plan was they'd hesitate to provide review samples.
 
M

MrBoat

Audioholic Ninja
Heating/cooling audible break-in amuses me. Just knowing it will have reached somewhat of that potential, perhaps to the extreme in some parts, just from the soldering process. Or the parts that need to be hand worked, where newb is just a little slower than the old hand next to him.

Except for perhaps in China, where they might earn a nickel for every board and can heat sink with their teeth. I bet those dudes are pretty fast. :D
 
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