Is my amp sufficient?

[I.F.H.Mondays]

Felicitations to all purveyors of this site.

Now if I may commence the misguided inquisition, what speakers should i get?
Just kidding. I got me a pair of amps as gifts; Denon AVR-3801(pushing Bose 701s 301s VCS-10 center channel Klipsch SW-450) & Yamamaha(sp?)M-45. The Yam. is available and I mean to use it. It occurs to me that it would be ideal for powering a pair of nice towers(Klipsch RF-5s dare I say RF-7s perhaps?)as it appears to be a 500w class A-B amp. This setup I would use to listen to music in my 12'x17' living room and possibly create problems with "THE MAN". Now don't mitigate the chastising as you point out my logical fallacies and absurd idealism, I do appreciate it. Also I cant really audition speakers other than pitiful, portable, picnic players as I live in the sticks.

 

[3db]

Felicitations to all purveyors of this site.

Now if I may commence the misguided inquisition, what speakers should i get?
Just kidding. I got me a pair of amps as gifts; Denon AVR-3801(pushing Bose 701s 301s VCS-10 center channel Klipsch SW-450) & Yamamaha(sp?)M-45. The Yam. is available and I mean to use it. It occurs to me that it would be ideal for powering a pair of nice towers(Klipsch RF-5s dare I say RF-7s perhaps?)as it appears to be a 500w class A-B amp. This setup I would use to listen to music in my 12'x17' living room and possibly create problems with "THE MAN". Now don't mitigate the chastising as you point out my logical fallacies and absurd idealism, I do appreciate it. Also I cant really audition speakers other than pitiful, portable, picnic players as I live in the sticks.

I'm not a fan of teh forward sound that Klipch provides. I tire easily from their sound. You need to haul *** out of the sticks to yoru nearest town...and take a look. Look in the phone book for the nearest specilaity audo dealers to see what they carry or use an Internte brand such as SVS Axiom, etc.

 

[Chicagorep]

I would pick Paradigm over Klipsch all day long. Klipsch just isn't what it used to be.

 

[I.F.H.Mondays]

I'll shop around. Listening is the only right way to decide. How about that amp though? Is it permissible to power a $1,500-$2,000 set of speakers with a Yamaha M-45 or do I need to start with a new amp? I guess I should have posted this under amps.

 

[JerryLove]

I'll shop around. Listening is the only right way to decide. How about that amp though? Is it permissible to power a $1,500-$2,000 set of speakers with a Yamaha M-45 or do I need to start with a new amp? I guess I should have posted this under amps.

The M-45 appears to be a 10W-class A / 125W-class AB amp.

At 12x17 I suspect you will be fine unless the speakers you choose are terribly inefficient or you listen *very* loud.

Remember that 250W will only get you 3db more.

 

[yepimonfire]

The M-45 appears to be a 10W-class A / 125W-class AB amp.

At 12x17 I suspect you will be fine unless the speakers you choose are terribly inefficient or you listen *very* loud.

Remember that 250W will only get you 3db more.

250w may only give you 3dB more of volume, but from what ive heard what eats power is transients, i once read that it takes several hundred watts to correctly reproduce all the transients of scissors cutting paper because there are extremly short peaks. i also know from experience that more watts = better dynamics and better sound. both amps i have will go the same perceived loudness, one is 50w, one is 105w. the 105w one sound much better dynamically, the 50w one is always running out of gas and sounds "forced"

 

[yepimonfire]

forgot to add that most 100w amps (if they can truly supply 100 watts of dynamic power) are plenty sufficient for almost all home needs. you will only use an RMS of 50-70 (in most instances), that leaves 30-50w of headroom, which is plenty. use a sub and your even better off since almost 50% of your power is used up by frequencies below 100hz. what happens is low frequencies cause the VC impedance to drop significantly, your speaker may be rated at 87dB or whatever, but your certainly not going to be able to reproduce 87dB at 50hz with a measly 1w. if this were the case subs would not have 100-500w amps in them.

 

[JerryLove]

250w may only give you 3dB more of volume, but from what ive heard what eats power is transients, i once read that it takes several hundred watts to correctly reproduce all the transients of scissors cutting paper because there are extremly short peaks.

The math works the same for peak power as it does for sustained power.

i also know from experience that more watts = better dynamics and better sound. both amps i have will go the same perceived loudness, one is 50w, one is 105w. the 105w one sound much better dynamically, the 50w one is always running out of gas and sounds "forced"

So from this you conclude that
a) This is true for all applications and
b) This is true for all comparisons between amps listed as 50w and 105w

Scissors sound just fine in my headphones running at a fraction of a watt. The rate of scale doesn't change. It's possible that you are working right on the edge of functionality (where 50w isn't enough and 105w is), but I suspect that other differences in your amps account for the difference.

forgot to add that most 100w amps (if they can truly supply 100 watts of dynamic power) are plenty sufficient for almost all home needs. you will only use an RMS of 50-70 (in most instances), that leaves 30-50w of headroom, which is plenty.

If you are running an average of 30w draw then 100w is nowhere near enough headroom (it represents <5db ovberhead).

Of course, drawing 30w RMS on 84db speakers is, at 1m, 99db and you can expect permentant hearing loss. It's like putting a motorcycle or snowmobile in your room (http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/loudness.html).

No, I suspect most people are RMS <10w.

use a sub and your even better off since almost 50% of your power is used up by frequencies below 100hz. what happens is low frequencies cause the VC impedance to drop significantly, your speaker may be rated at 87dB or whatever, but your certainly not going to be able to reproduce 87dB at 50hz with a measly 1w. if this were the case subs would not have 100-500w amps in them.

http://mobile.jlaudio.com/products_subs.php?series_id=10

Your facts are simply wrong.

 

[yepimonfire]

your headphones are also only made to move a very tiny amount of air.

"b) This is true for all comparisons between amps listed as 50w and 105w"

absolutley not, you can get 45w amps or even 25w ones with more headroom then 100w amps. its all about headroom. and simple physics and electronics show that it takes more power to produce the same amount of spl for bass then it does mid and treble because the cone must make much longer excursions just to render the waveform. ive hooked a multimeter up to speakers playing a constant 45hz sine wave and it certainly wasnt deafeningly loud and it was drawing 30w. several times ive also stated on here that the average power usage when running my speakers in full range mode is 30-70w, and im not cranking it that loud. thats with music though, on movies its 10w most of the time, unless something explodes. not to mention the music i listen to can be labeled as one giant never ending musical peak

 

[JerryLove]

your headphones are also only made to move a very tiny amount of air.

That would be correct. The SPL at 1m is lower than you are likely using for a room.

So how much does the wattage requirement move when one goes from the headphones to speakers? It doubles every 3db... which is rather my point.

absolutley not, you can get 45w amps or even 25w ones with more headroom then 100w amps. its all about headroom.

So you are agreeing that the difference you are experiencing is not neccessarily related to the rated wattage?

and simple physics and electronics show that it takes more power to produce the same amount of spl for bass then it does mid and treble because the cone must make much longer excursions just to render the waveform.

I've shown you an 86db@1w@1m@30Hz speaker, which you said didn't exist.

ive hooked a multimeter up to speakers playing a constant 45hz sine wave and it certainly wasnt deafeningly loud and it was drawing 30w. several times ive also stated on here that the average power usage when running my speakers in full range mode is 30-70w, and im not cranking it that loud. thats with music though, on movies its 10w most of the time, unless something explodes. not to mention the music i listen to can be labeled as one giant never ending musical peak

Then we are back to "you have an unusually ineffecient setup that is taxing more than 50W". I suspect you would do well to replace your 105w amp with something more like 500w.

 

[yepimonfire]

no the amps in my marantz are great and seem to have plenty of headroom, the 50wpc amp i have can barley reach 50wpc without clipping, the marantz is a surround receiver, it will bench 150wpc in 2ch mode. and what i dont understand, if what you say is true, is why if you can reach 87db at 1w1m at low frequencies then why do subs have high current amplifiers? maybe im not understanding the power usage when it comes to transients and peaks.

 

[JerryLove]

no the amps in my marantz are great and seem to have plenty of headroom, the 50wpc amp i have can barley reach 50wpc without clipping, the marantz is a surround receiver, it will bench 150wpc in 2ch mode.

And you've stated you are drawing up to 70w RMS. Your situation is unusual for a home envyronment in how ineffecient it is.

In your case, it seems you should be running a more powerful amp than most.

and what i dont understand, if what you say is true, is why if you can reach 87db at 1w1m at low frequencies then why do subs have high current amplifiers? maybe im not understanding the power usage when it comes to transients and peaks.

Not all do.

But effecieny varies between subs. Desired volume varies between subs. Desired frequency varies. My ULD-15 will well exceed 104db at 20hz with its 400w amp: I'm not hitting anywhere near its capacity as I'm not running the bass that loud.

 

[yepimonfire]

i said its 30w-70w 70w being the max. my speakers are 87dB 1w1m and they take a bit more gain on the volume control then the sonys i had, but they arent that bad.

 

[JerryLove]

i said its 30w-70w 70w being the max. my speakers are 87dB 1w1m and they take a bit more gain on the volume control then the sonys i had, but they arent that bad.

Not quite: you said

ive hooked a multimeter up to speakers playing a constant 45hz sine wave and it certainly wasnt deafeningly loud and it was drawing 30w.

Again: I haven't been to your house. I have not listened to your setup. I have not tested your hearing. I have not tested your gear. I have not experienced what you are stating you are experiencing and so I do not know what is going on at your location.

I have 8 sets of speakers currently hooked up at my house from PSB400i speakers on my computer to my custom 4-way active crossover WmAx speakers (and Paradigm sigs, and B&W 801-II). I've got them running from a McIntosh 2120 (circa 1970s), a Pioneer 9700S (circa early 90s), a Marantz 7002, a mid-90s Sony AVR, and a stack of Yamaha P-series Professional amps (that would be the WmAx speakers).

I can only speak from my experiences, the experiences of others who I have read, and what the math tells me.

What I derive from those is that something is happening at your location that I have missed: either because I didn't notice, or because you haven't said. It is not typical of the many other people I've spoken with on this topic.

Remind me: What excatly are your speakers (make and model).

 

[yepimonfire]

very weird, maybe my multimeter is faulty.as far as i know i don't have bad hearing, last time it tested clear from 15hz (+5dB to hear it compared to other sounds) to 22khz. (no gain on 22khz to hear it, same level as the rest.)

im not sure if that means i have good hearing or not though.

 

[JerryLove]

very weird, maybe my multimeter is faulty.as far as i know i don't have bad hearing, last time it tested clear from 15hz (+5dB to hear it compared to other sounds) to 22khz. (no gain on 22khz to hear it, same level as the rest.)

im not sure if that means i have good hearing or not though.

It may not be hearing. It may be something else. Perhaps the specific speakers you are using don't have the rated effeciency at 45Hz, and so you are running that portion of the range hot. Perhaps some other frequency.

As I said: I simply don't know what's going on at your location... but something is unusual there.

 

[I.F.H.Mondays]

Well then, on account of you two not getting together for a showcase showdown, you have reached an impasse. Based on your kind suggestions and passionate perseverance of the hobby, here is what I shall do: Research, audition, spend money. If I get them home and don't like them(I think I will)I'll go research,audition,spend more money on another amp(sounds like I won't need to). If I still don't like it I'll blow it all up. I know, based on research, I like the way dynomite sounds. Thanks.