Is It Snake Oil?

[goodman]

Okay, so this question is not audio or video related, but I know a lot of you audioholics out there have expertise in other areas: My automobile is coming up on 90k mi. The owner's manual recommends a timing belt and spark plugs at 90k mi, and I'm going to go for them. The shop that changed the oil today also wants to change the spark plug wires, the serpentine belt (cracked, they said), and power steering fluid (looked burnt, they said, and I know it's never been changed). I am okay with all of this, but they also want to clean the fuel injectors with a treatment that is about $100.00. Is this snake oil or should I go for it?
And what about a water pump replacement while the timing belt is being replaced? I brought it up and they said if they replace the water pump at the same time as the timing belt, I would save almost two hours out of a four hour job (about $190 for the pump and $184 for labor additional). Should I go for the water pump or let it ride? The car is a 1999 Lexus GS400.

 

[MDS]

The timing belts they use on newer cars are cheap plastic belts, unlike the days of old when we had double roller steel timing chains. It's all part of the planned obsolesence.

I would replace the water pump at the same time as you do the timing belt simply because the engine will already be torn down and it would cost you more due to the labor if you were to wait. My water pump (94 Ford Probe GT) just died and I had the opposite case - should I replace the timing belt at the same time. I did because it was at 60K miles, which is when they recommend it be done.

As far as fuel injection cleaning...You need to ask what the service entails. If they actually remove the fuel injectors and clean them as well as the intake, then it's worth $100. If it amounts to little more than running fuel injection cleaner thru the engine, you can buy a bottle yourself for $5.

 

[Ragtop]

Take a look at your plug wires they should be fine. If you live a harsh climate they may need replacing but I doubt it. If you get a bottle of $5 fuel injector cleaner and run that through the engine you'll probably do a better job cleaning the injectors than the shop would. Is your water pump leaking? Is there something wrong with it? I wouldn't change it just becasue they are in there working on something else. Power steering fluid is cheap and if it's never been changed it's probably time.

I'm all for changing belts especially if they are cracked or worn, snapping a belt while operating a car can do some damage.

 

[j_garcia]

You ALWAYS replace the water pump when you replace the timing belt in a case like this, simply because the pump itself doesn't typically cost a lot, but they are going to do most of the same labor. If your water pump goes bad in 2 weeks (which is certainly possible with 90K on the car), they will have to charge you for the same exact labor all over again, making your $100 water pump installation $500 instead. That is why it is recommended. Kind of like, you wouldn't replace your transmission and stick a clutch with 50K mi on it back in there again so you could pay them to do the same labor again in 6 months if the clutch went.

If you were to pull your injectors yourself, it would still cost you $100 to have them cleaned/serviced. Like MDS said, if they are just running a cleaner through your system, it probably isn't worth the $100, though they are going to hopefully run a MUCH stronger cleaner than you can buy. If you figure the cost of one injector is more than $100 (I had one die a few months ago and it cost me $240 for ONE injector), and if you've never run a FI cleaner through the system yourself, it is probably worth it, especially if they are goinig to pull them out and look at the spray patterns.

You can also purchase and replace the spark plug wires yourself and save the labor they are going to charge you, since it only takes a few minutes. Don't be surprised if they cost a lot just by themselves though. Wires should be replaced periodically, even if you can't visibly see that they are bad. If you've never done it, I would replace them.

Timing belts and timing chains aren't the same thing and are generally applied to different types of engines. It isn't designed obsolesence exactly. Belts are used because they are cheaper and quieter, at the expense of not lasting as long as a chain. They work just as well as chains though. Even top fuel dragsters use belts, not chains, and we are talking about 7000HP (really big belts )

 

[Rock&Roll Ninja]

I thought injectors were $9.99 items that are just tossed when broken?

 

[MDS]

Off topic: timing belts vs chains

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't timing belts serve the same purpose as timing chains; ie the crank turns the belt/chain which turns the camshaft? My perspective is the 'old' days when I was in my teens and twenties and worked on cars as a hobby. Back then you could buy your own timing chain and put it in in a few hours - of course you NEVER had to change the timing chain unless you wanted to upgrade. [We built them for drag racing, so a stronger double roller timing chain is a worthwhile upgrade]

With the price of new cars today, I think the 'cost saving' argument is bunk. Building a car such that a major component of the engine is likely to fail long before the useful life of the car has expired is just plain stupid and that is why i think it is planned obsolesence. My 1978 280Z had over 150K miles on it and was still going strong without ever having any major engine rebuild. In contrast, my 1994 Probe GT costs me a few thousand a year to keep running. I can't do anything other than plugs, cap, rotor, and wires myself and the parts that fail (mostly computer related - sensors and control modules and such) are expensive.

 

[mulester7]

.....I think what hacks me off worst, is when a 40 dollar "relay", takes me to the engine won't even turn and how can you have a clue?.....after signing for the tow, up walks a guy four minutes later and opens his hand to display something very small that's dirty, and says, "yes, Mr. Smith, here's what had you"...."this important "relay""....after I temporarily pass out on my feet from irritation, I learned to think of my Grandpaw's black truck with the inline 6 that had NO "relays"....."relays", have you ever heard of anything that sounds more useless?......

 

[MDS]

Mulester,
Don't even get me started on the relays, sensors, and control modules...

You can't even adjust the idle on my probe. It's controlled by an 'idle control module'. Well it failed and the car would stall if you didn't keep your foot on the gas. Guess how much to fix it? $500! And then the airbag's 'backup battery supply sensor' - another $300 for the sensor and $300 for whatever the control module is that works with that sensor. No choice but to fix it - better safe than sorry in the event of an accident.

I remember the good ole days when you could adjust the idle with a screwdriver...for FREE!

 

[ruadmaa]

You Have No Idea Of What You're Saying

Mulester,
Don't even get me started on the relays, sensors, and control modules...

You can't even adjust the idle on my probe. It's controlled by an 'idle control module'. Well it failed and the car would stall if you didn't keep your foot on the gas. Guess how much to fix it? $500! And then the airbag's 'backup battery supply sensor' - another $300 for the sensor and $300 for whatever the control module is that works with that sensor. No choice but to fix it - better safe than sorry in the event of an accident.

I remember the good ole days when you could adjust the idle with a screwdriver...for FREE!

You have no idea of how lousy and maintenance intensive the old cars were. Getting rid of the carburetor was the best thing that ever happened. You obviously don't remember how bad cars ran when it was cold (if they started). You would jerk down the road for at least 5 minutes until the car warmed up. Gumout was a must to clean the carburetor linkeage every month. Hopefully you didn't have choke trouble, with the butterfly sticking causing your car not to start at all. Sparkplugs were replaced just about every year as were mufflers (leaded gas ruined mufflers very quickly and they weren't made out of stainless steel) Todays cars are the best that were ever built. That includes the body. When you bought a car in the 60's 3 years was about all it would last until severe rust took over. Yes, you are spoiled. I doubt most people even know what the engine looks like these days since maintenance is down to almost nothing. Incidentally, when was the last time you had to install a set of ignition points??? There are many other maintenance free items that I am not touching on (far too many to mention). If you think the older cars were better you obviously either have a very poor memory or never owned one.

 

[MDS]

If you think the older cars were better you obviously either have a very poor memory or never owned one.

LOL. That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. I never said the older cars were 'better'. I said you had some ability to do maintenance yourself, whereas today you can't do hardly anything.

 

[mulester7]

If you think the older cars were better you obviously either have a very poor memory or never owned one.

.....Ruadmaa, no offense, but you must have owned some real clunkers way back before unleaded gas....I have to go with MDS on the modern-day cars being profit-oriented with relays, sensors, and control modules that can go at any time, and waaaaay too many do.....

 

[claudermilk]

It's the complexity that kills you these days. I can't do a whole lot on my 95 Probe GT, but it's lasted over 130,000 miles and shows no signs of quitting. BTW, water pump just got replaced last month after 10 years of service. On the flip side, the older cars you could work on youself--I've got a project car I'm working on with my brother-in-law using a 74 351 that we basically rebuilt from the ground up & is almost ready to start (and stuffed into a car 1/4 the size it used to power ); I wouldn't even think of trying that on the Probe.