Internal DAC from CD player to external

Y

yangyaphile

Enthusiast
Hi All,
I have a Cambridge Azur 550C CD player that uses a single Wolfson WM8740 dac chip. Would moving to the Cambridge Audio DAC Magic 100 which uses the Wolfson WM8742 chip give any sound advantage? Would moving to an external dac that uses an ESS Sabre32 chip have any sound advantage? I don't do any streaming (only listen to CD's).
The rest of my system is: NAD 326BEE integrated amp and Polk Reserve R200 bookshelf speakers.

Thanks for any replies!
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Hi All,
I have a Cambridge Azur 550C CD player that uses a single Wolfson WM8740 dac chip. Would moving to the Cambridge Audio DAC Magic 100 which uses the Wolfson WM8742 chip give any sound advantage? Would moving to an external dac that uses an ESS Sabre32 chip have any sound advantage? I don't do any streaming (only listen to CD's).
The rest of my system is: NAD 326BEE integrated amp and Polk Reserve R200 bookshelf speakers.

Thanks for any replies!
Based on specs, no! The 8742 has better spec but the 8740's excellent too, enough to offer THD+N well below the threshold of audibility, way better than the THD+N of the NAD amp.
 
Y

yangyaphile

Enthusiast
Thank you PENG. What about the new ESS Sabre32 chip in comparison?
 
ban25

ban25

Audioholic
Thank you PENG. What about the new ESS Sabre32 chip in comparison?
We'd need the model number of the ESS DAC to know, but as long as the NAD amp is in the chain, that will be the limiting factor (before, of course, the speakers).
 
Y

yangyaphile

Enthusiast
I hear ya. We know that a different (better) amp can/will sound better/different (same obviously goes for speakers). I guess I'm just wondering whether a different dac can/will sound better/different.
 
Out-Of-Phase

Out-Of-Phase

Audioholic General
I have a Cambridge Azur 550C CD player that uses a single Wolfson WM8740 dac chip. Would moving to the Cambridge Audio DAC Magic 100 which uses the Wolfson WM8742 chip give any sound advantage?
No.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Seriously, I have no life.
I hear ya. We know that a different (better) amp can/will sound better/different (same obviously goes for speakers). I guess I'm just wondering whether a different dac can/will sound better/different.
I can give that a resounding no. If it is better sound you are after, then you need to go speaker shopping. Your speakers and how they react to their space is what really determines the sound of your system.

However when you change your speakers, you should consider more potent amplification. 50 watts per channel, with 1% THD at 65 watts, does not really cut it, unless your speakers are unusually sensitive.

In addition, you make no mention of a sub, and with those speakers you are totally missing a significant segment of the audio band width.

If you are seriously looking to upgrade, then you should take a good hard look at active speakers that do not require a power amp.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thank you PENG. What about the new ESS Sabre32 chip in comparison?
It depends, some ESS chips have better specs than the EM8740 but some have lower specs.

32 bit is not always better as it depends on the application. In most home hifi application 24b/192 kHz is all you need.

The WM8740' s THD+N is -104 dB, that's less than 0.001%. So just forget about the chip and enjoy the music.
 
Y

yangyaphile

Enthusiast
Thanks for all the definitive replies. As far as my Polk R200 speakers, they do amazingly well with deep & punchy bass. I don't want/need a subwoofer as the listening area isn't that large.
I think the best investment would ultimately be a new amp. Just gotta save them pennies.
Just wanted people's opinions on external dacs and whether they make any sonic difference.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
Thanks for all the definitive replies. As far as my Polk R200 speakers, they do amazingly well with deep & punchy bass. I don't want/need a subwoofer as the listening area isn't that large.
I think the best investment would ultimately be a new amp. Just gotta save them pennies.
Just wanted people's opinions on external dacs and whether they make any sonic difference.
I have lots of DACs and I always thought they have sonic differences, but every time when I got serious and set them up for comparison in the best practical way I can, I could not tell a difference. Not in a blind test for sure.
However, I will continue to look out for good values, such as those by Topping and S.M.S.L because even if there are no sonic differences, they often offer a different set of features, connectivity and playability (lack of a better word). Also, if the specs of one are better than the others, I could, and would convince myself it sounds better.

Amplifier is a different animal, anything at the level of NAD326BEE will sound the same. If not, there is something wrong in the design of the amplifier. If the amp is designed to amplify accurately, it will only increase the input signal level, without altering anything else, so they should sound the same when used below it's limits in terms of voltage, current, power output and frequency response etc. It is such a simple thing, ask any real engineers or physicist and you will get the same answer, but it is so impossible for people to believe, because they see and imagine the sonic difference, instead of using their bears and brains. I can do the same with my many dacs, but I do so intentionally, because it is easy to buy dacs with great specs and different features. Amps are big, heavy and usually costs more so owning half a dozen is enough for me.
 
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lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
Thanks for all the definitive replies. As far as my Polk R200 speakers, they do amazingly well with deep & punchy bass. I don't want/need a subwoofer as the listening area isn't that large.
I think the best investment would ultimately be a new amp. Just gotta save them pennies.
Just wanted people's opinions on external dacs and whether they make any sonic difference.
What would your goals be with a different amp? You need more power for your listening levels/distance from speakers? I wouldn't look for a sonic difference with a different amp, more power would be fairly easy, tho.
 
Y

yangyaphile

Enthusiast
I get ya lovinthehd. It's a crazy hobby. I don't need any more power. The NAD is easily powerful enough for my needs and listening area. Your quote, "I wouldn't look for a sonic difference with a different amp..." is interesting. I've listened to many amps and have found they do have sonic differences. I've also read so many reviews on $500 to $1,000 integrated amps and they all discuss sound quality & tonal balances. Some amps are warmer than others. Some give better separation and air. Some are U or V shaped. Some..., well you get the point. I'm not an audio engineer, I just trust my ears. I did at one point long ago own much higher end gear (before it all got lost in a flood).
I had a Bryston 4B power amp, Magnapan MG-iic speakers, a Forte preamp, an Aragon 47k phono preamp, a VPI jr turntable with an Alphason HR100S tonearm and Dynavector mc cartridge (oh, I lost all my vinyl as well). I enjoy the way my system sounds as it stands now, but the purpose of the original post was just to see if anyone thought that external dacs might offer any improvements over the built in dac of my CD player.
 
lovinthehd

lovinthehd

Audioholic Jedi
I get ya lovinthehd. It's a crazy hobby. I don't need any more power. The NAD is easily powerful enough for my needs and listening area. Your quote, "I wouldn't look for a sonic difference with a different amp..." is interesting. I've listened to many amps and have found they do have sonic differences. I've also read so many reviews on $500 to $1,000 integrated amps and they all discuss sound quality & tonal balances. Some amps are warmer than others. Some give better separation and air. Some are U or V shaped. Some..., well you get the point. I'm not an audio engineer, I just trust my ears. I did at one point long ago own much higher end gear (before it all got lost in a flood).
I had a Bryston 4B power amp, Magnapan MG-iic speakers, a Forte preamp, an Aragon 47k phono preamp, a VPI jr turntable with an Alphason HR100S tonearm and Dynavector mc cartridge (oh, I lost all my vinyl as well). I enjoy the way my system sounds as it stands now, but the purpose of the original post was just to see if anyone thought that external dacs might offer any improvements over the built in dac of my CD player.
Tube amps can be different I suppose, but I don't even think of those these days. I find most subjective reviews of amps to be more silly than useful. It's difficult to compare amps properly, too (something the subjective reviewers generally don't even try to do). With a good performing solid state amp I simply wouldn't expect particular sonic differences for an amp used within its impedance/power capabilities. Not my experience generally with amps in any case. Some speakers can stress some amps more than others, tho.
 
P

PENG

Audioholic Slumlord
I've also read so many reviews on $500 to $1,000 integrated amps and they all discuss sound quality & tonal balances. Some amps are warmer than others. Some give better separation and air. Some are U or V shaped. Some..., well you get the point. I'm not an audio engineer, I just trust my ears. I did at one point long ago own much higher end gear (before it all got lost in a flood).
If you just trust your ears, you would have to blind listening tests, otherwise you cannot trust your ears because it has been proven by authoritative audio experts, including Dr. Floyd Toole and Dr. Sean Olive that ears, even perfect ones, are very much affected by the brains that make you hear things that aren't there when you don't know which speakers (let alone amps).

You might have heard that Marantz made theirs to sound warm and with emotion blablabla, so if you prefer warm sound, go get yourself a Marantz amp, and CD if you are thinking in terms of CDs and DAC, or a Marantz integrated amp with build in DAC. If you do that, be sure to read their marketing information so you know what your are supposed to hear, by them obviously, and then you are all set to hear the sonic signature you are expecting.

I enjoy the way my system sounds as it stands now, but the purpose of the original post was just to see if anyone thought that external dacs might offer any improvements over the built in dac of my CD player.
Since you just trust your ears, I am not going to bore you with specs and measurements, so I would suggest you spend a small amount on an external dac that you can easily change the "sound signature" to find out if you can hear what you may be looking for and if not you can return it anyway if you buy from Amazon.

If you search hard enough, you should be able to find such a dac under $500. I have a smsl su-8 that is now hard to find and the su-9n is now selling for $399.

My SU-8 has the following options for different sonic characteristics, you have more than a dozen different setting to try, with a huge number of combination to get the sonic signature you prefer.

By the way, just found one for you at Apos Audio, with a 45-day return window. I have mine for a few years now, I love it, there is no need to spend a ton of money when this $250 thing that is based on the ESS Sabre DAC, the ES9038Q2M (32 bit 768 kHz) can play any file at any resolution and has THD+N spec of 0.0003%

SMSL SU-8 Version 2 DAC (Digital-to-Analog Converter) – Apos Audio

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At $250, nothing beats it!
 
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Y

yangyaphile

Enthusiast
So, to all that replied, thanks. The only way I was to know for sure was just to buy a $250 dac based on the Sabre ES9038Q2M dac chip. After getting it, I let it burn in for about 40 hours (although burn in is another topic of contention). Anyway, after hooking up the new dac, I found to my suprise the following subjective results. Bass was a little more extended and punchy but at the expense of mid-bass clarity. I also found the midrange harder and the high end a bit too bright. The smoothness of my 12 year old Cambridge Azur 550C cd player with the Wolfson WM8740 was gone. Musically speaking, I found my CD player using the built in Wolfson dac to be easier (to my subjective hearing) to listen to (especially for extended periods of time). It just was more dialed in overall.
I had to try this "experiment" out on my own system to see if I could hear a difference and to me I did. So now I can give my humble opinion that if you have a good CD player already and want to replace the internal dac with a budget external dac, save your money (which many of you guys already stated). Now I just need the return label and back it goes. Happy listening to all!!!
 

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