Interesting talk on Power Conditioners

[Vancouver]

Its funny that MOST people believe that power conditioners do little, if not degrade sound and video quality. Those same people,however, usualy seem to agree that Richard Grey units are great! Seems like a contradiction, but its actually not becuase Richard Grey units arn't actually line conditioners I found after doing some research.

Widescreen Mag is one of the AV mags i trust reviews from. The writter of this article starts off with the same opinion as myself about conditioners, then does a review of RG. Thought it would be of interest.

http://www.richardgrayspowercompany.com/reviews/widesreen.html

 

[miklorsmith]

Cool!

The next level for someone with an already great system!

 

[jaxvon]

I'm definitely in favor of using power conditioners. I'm not sure how much they improve the sound in terms of tonality (not saying they do or don't), but I can say from personal experiences that a quality power conditioner will take the noise and garbage out of your lines, as well as add spike and surge protection. These are very beneficial.

That said, a lot of esoteric power conditioners (such as the Richard Gray mentioned), don't seem to offer any specs for voltage regulation, clamping voltage, let through voltage, etc. From what I've read, some of these units employ a technology that will actually amplify line spikes. That's not to say that it isn't worth spending some cash on a high quality unit, but I think that some, like Richard Gray, are overpriced for the features and performance they offer.

 

[gene]

That review reads more like an advertorial than a real review. I would be very careful using a series mode conditioner/power device like this for two primary reasons:

1) They aren't UL tested or approved
2) Many of these type of devices act as a spike amplifier, NOT arrestor.

Personally I would use any power conditioner/line suppressor on expensive gear unless it has UL/TUV or equivalent approval marked on it.

 

[Sleestack]

That review reads more like an advertorial than a real review. I would be very careful using a series mode conditioner/power device like this for two primary reasons:

1) They aren't UL tested or approved
2) Many of these type of devices act as a spike amplifier, NOT arrestor.

Personally I would use any power conditioner/line suppressor on expensive gear unless it has UL/TUV or equivalent approval marked on it.

Gene,

Do you have any opinion on Audiophile APS products? I already have a number of $500- $1000 surge protectors/filters made by Belkin, Monster and Panamax. They all seem to do their job in terms of surge protection and I did notice that they did elimitate somm buzz in one of my systems.

I don't seem to have any power issues at my house, however I do plan on having multiple HT and 2 channel systems running within 2 rooms. Assuming cost is not a concern, do you think a conditioner/protector would give me any improvements over a pure surge protecter/filter?

 

[Buckeyefan 1]

I'm totally against (or ignorant of) power conditioners. I'm of the opinion that if my tv set, which requires much, much more current than my receiver, isn't problamatic of voltage fluctuations, then why the heck does my receiver need voltage regulation? Heck, most small appliances require some sort of power supply to reduce the amount of voltage into a unit. That most likely means we have an excess of current at all times, and lower fluctuations are still more than our appliances may ever use at one time. I will admit, when we plug in the iron, the lights dim a bit, but that is never relayed to sound output, or a picture quality issue. If a blender is used, sometimes you'll see interference on the tv. That may be once or twice a year. If the power conditioner alleviates that interference, then it may be worth it for those who make margaritas nightly. What I am in favor of, is a good surge protector with a cable in/out. If a house is struck by lightening, you want that added protection. I have a Belkin battery backup/clean power conditioner on my pc. I have it in case the power goes down. I didn't buy it for "clean power." IMHO, you don't need 120V of clean power when you're only utilizing a fraction of it. Now I know MacManNM father had a set of RTR speakers, as tall as I was, powered by an SAE TWO amp, and when driven hard, would dim the lights in the house. The amp never missed a beat, but it did pull current away from other electronics in the house. Could it have been the design of the amp, and it's capacitors? Hey, this is just another angle on the topic. I'm in no way saying they are useless. I'm just pointing out I've not had an issue where I've needed one, or really had to have one.

 

[gene]

Sleestack;

We are just getting into investigating this topic, and quite frankly I cannot believe the snake oil involved. I am not too familiar with the APS products but if its marketed as "Audiophile" than I would be a little leary

So far the ones we have found to be of sound design include, APC, Panamax, Tributaries, Tripplite, as well as some of the Monster products. We plan on digging into this topic a bit deeper next year after my new testing facility is completed. So stay tuned....

 

[mtrycrafts]

Its funny that MOST people believe that power conditioners do little, if not degrade sound and video quality. Those same people,however, usualy seem to agree that Richard Grey units are great! Seems like a contradiction, but its actually not becuase Richard Grey units arn't actually line conditioners I found after doing some research.

Widescreen Mag is one of the AV mags i trust reviews from. The writter of this article starts off with the same opinion as myself about conditioners, then does a review of RG. Thought it would be of interest.

http://www.richardgrayspowercompany.com/reviews/widesreen.html

You know what the reviewer left out from that report?

Objective, measureable data such as:
audiou difference, lower THD+N from the output of comonents, a video comparator, or a split screen comparison of treated and non treated components.

As it is, how is it different form a snake oil review in Stereopile???
No, published in WS is not necessarily it. As is, it is a very subjective opinion nothing more.

 

[mtrycrafts]

We plan on digging into this topic a bit deeper next year after my new testing facility is completed. So stay tuned....

Yes, please do some serious measurements on the output of components attached, with and without these aids to see if there is any reduction in any numbers.

 

[Sleestack]

Sleestack;

We are just getting into investigating this topic, and quite frankly I cannot believe the snake oil involved. I am not too familiar with the APS products but if its marketed as "Audiophile" than I would be a little leary

So far the ones we have found to be of sound design include, APC, Panamax, Tributaries, Tripplite, as well as some of the Monster products. We plan on digging into this topic a bit deeper next year after my new testing facility is completed. So stay tuned....

Thanks Gene. I do have products from Monster and Panamax that have serve me very well. I also bought Belkins latest 6 filter surge protector whcih also seems to work quite well.

In any case, I have ordered the Audiophile APS 1050 b/c I want to see for myself. If you would like me to make it (or any of the other ones I have) available to you for testing, let me know.

 

[djoxygen]

There certainly is plenty of snake-oil out there, and it would be great if our esteemed editors would weigh in on the subject in a future report.

In my (recording studio) experience, good, clean power can be very beneficial, but lots of things are marketed as line conditioners that don't do much at all to actually clean up power.

IMO, this is the order of importance:

1) Surge suppressor. You might lose power, but at least the lightning strike won't kill your gear. This one is a MUST for any electronic gear. Never plug your gear straight into a wall.

2) Line conditioner / voltage regulator. These should, at the very least have an isolation transformer that decouples the wall from your gear. What you want is something that puts out 110 - 120 V as close to a sine wave as possible. Sometimes one box does both, but they can also be separate. APS is good, as is Furman. But *don't* use a UPS/battery backup by itself as a "line conditioner". Unless the particular model specifically says otherwise, UPS-es put out a stepped voltage, not a sine wave.

3) Balanced power. The luxury item. Again, Furman is a good place to start. Same Common Mode Rejection and shielding/grounding principles as XLR/TRS line-level balanced signal to keep the run from power supply to gear as interference-free as possible.

 

[jaxvon]

Dj...have you had any experience with Equitech products? Their stuff is pricy, but the specs on it are all very solid.

 

[djoxygen]

Dj...have you had any experience with Equitech products? Their stuff is pricy, but the specs on it are all very solid.

I don't have any personal experience with their products, but a quick perusal of their website impressed me. Their tech-talk is legit, not BS. Looks like their target audience is pro sound engineers, not people who suspend their home theater speaker cables 2" above the floor.

 

[Sleestack]

IMO, this is the order of importance:

1) Surge suppressor. You might lose power, but at least the lightning strike won't kill your gear. This one is a MUST for any electronic gear. Never plug your gear straight into a wall.

2) Line conditioner / voltage regulator. These should, at the very least have an isolation transformer that decouples the wall from your gear. What you want is something that puts out 110 - 120 V as close to a sine wave as possible. Sometimes one box does both, but they can also be separate. APS is good, as is Furman. But *don't* use a UPS/battery backup by itself as a "line conditioner". Unless the particular model specifically says otherwise, UPS-es put out a stepped voltage, not a sine wave.

3) Balanced power. The luxury item. Again, Furman is a good place to start. Same Common Mode Rejection and shielding/grounding principles as XLR/TRS line-level balanced signal to keep the run from power supply to gear as interference-free as possible.

The Audiophile APS 1050 I ordered seems to cover these 3 things. There is qutie a bit of marketing hyperbole on their site too, but the core purpose seems to be legitimate.

I am a bit curious about the AC-DC-AC conversion process they use. Do most conditioners handle voltage regulation that way?

 

[mitch57]

Please allow me to put in my two cents worth. I have had a very annoying amplifier transformer buzz which up until now I have been unable to resolve. This issue is not, repeat, not a ground loop issue. The amp buzzes from the transformer itself. I have had both the Rotel RMB-1095 and the Parasound Halo A51 exhibit the same problem.

When I had both amps at the dealer niether of them buzzed. They were both dead silent. I won't go into all the troubleshooting I did to isolate the problem but rest assured I positively identified the issue as being the electrical power coming into my house from the utility company. If you care to read about the issue in great detail from another forum here it is:

http://www.remotecentral.com/cgi-bin/mboard/rc-custom/thread.cgi?keywords=5484&highlight=mitch57

After about a year of putting up with this annoying buzz which varied in it's intensity as well as having total silent moments, someone recommended I try this:

http://www.psaudio.com/products/upchb.asp

I was very skeptical that this would solve the problem without degrading the performance of the amp. I am here to tell you that this thing utterly amazed me! As soon as I plugged my amp into the PS Audio UPC-200HB it was dead silent. I haven't heard a peep out of it in the way of a transformer buzz since I got it. I can't even here the transformer buzz if I put my ear right on the amp.

I also ran the amp through it's paces with both movies and music including DVD-A/SACD titles. Preveously I had my system plugged into two Richard Grays. It couldn't suppress the buzz. Now I have the PS Audio plugged into the Richard Grays and my amp plugged into the PS Audio.

I'm very impressed with this product but I must admit that I didn't try any other less expensive products to see if they solved the problem. Regardless, I am very happy with the PS Audio and will recommend it to anyone who has the transformer buzz problem which I had.

I am also more then willing to demo my system with and without the PS Audio to prove how well it works. Of course, you would have to pay me a visit here in the boonies. I live in Bow, WA.

Just thought I would let you know where my experience with conditioners led me to after a long and arduous pursuit for perfection in audio serenity.

 

[djoxygen]

I am a bit curious about the AC-DC-AC conversion process they use. Do most conditioners handle voltage regulation that way?

I can't say that it's invalid, but I'm not familiar with that method.

 

[MDS]

AC regenerators, like the PS Audio PowerPlant, do the ac-dc-ac conversion but I don't think a regular line conditioner does that.

 

[Sleestack]

AC regenerators, like the PS Audio PowerPlant, do the ac-dc-ac conversion but I don't think a regular line conditioner does that.

Thanks.

I went ahead and ordered 2 items:

The Audiophile APS 1050. This unit works on the AC-DC-AC conversion and supposedly fulfills the need for a surge protecter,voltage stabilizer and filter.

The Monster MPAVS200. this unit is a pure voltage stabilizer and will be used in conjunction with one of my surge protectors/filter.


Does anyone know if the MPAVS200 should be plugged in to the surge protector/filter or vice-versa?

I'll report back on the 2 units later next week after I have had a chance to use them for a week.

 

[Dan Banquer]

Power Conditioners/Attention mytrcrafts

I want to take a minute to talk about RFI/EMI Filtering as it applies to audio electronics.
The bulk of audio power suppies are linear supplies. These types of power supplies and the linear regulators that go with them generally have very good low frequency rejection but that rejection goes down with frequency. So a unit that has a 60 db rejection at 60 or 120 Hz can easily go to 10db at 1 Mhz. Toroidal transformers can typically also have a wide bandwidth allowing RFI/EMI into the circuit. Linear amplifiers alo generally have good low frequency rejection but again the rejection goes down with frequency.
The sum total result that has been documented in journals such as the AES journal and Analog Dialog is that when RFI/EMI gains entrance into linear circuits designed for low frequency you get problems ranging from more inband noise, to semiconductor rectifying the HF interference, to breakthrough, to outright circuit failure if the levels are high enough in frequency and amplitude. As Henry Ott says (paraphrase); out of band rejection and noise immunity go hand in hand.
The AC lines on the street are not shielded and the transformers being used were deliberately designed for a wide bandwidth to allow the utilities to transmit RF. From what I understand the utilities wanted to do meter reading this way.
For those of us in urban and suburban areas the use of some type of AC line filtering is strongly recommended. It's not expensive, and if your smart enough to use a Tripplite Isobar you'll love the warranty along with the spike protection.

 

[Geno]

Power Conditioners

If I might add my two cents worth, I have 30 years experience with medical imaging equipment. When power line problems show up as noise and interference in the display of medical diagnostic images, we usually try to correct building wiring problems, or install line conditioners on the affected unit. These things will work when there's an identifiable problem. If there's no problem, why on earth would you need to spend the money to eliminate a non-existent problem?
Now I'm just as neurotic as the rest of you when it comes to my precious A/V system, but unless you're experiencing power line noise, you're just wasting money that could be better spent on DVD players with better A/D converters or speakers with ever more cool-sounding cone materials. Surge suppressors/protectors are another subject... prudent protection is a smart buy, IMHO, but these flashy "power centers" sold at our beloved HT retailers are just so much eyewash.