Interesting AVS Loudspeaker Thread Spurts Audioholics Article Idea

[gene]

The non-uniform off-axis response of the VP150 is an interesting graph over at AVS. The first room I had it in I was sitting on-axis, but since I moved it to another (larger) room where the majority of sitting positions are off-axis I have had trouble with speech intelligibility. I have also been able to play with placement. What I have also experienced since there is more freedom for placement, the degree the tone of the speaker changes just from moving the speaker a few feet vertically (above and below tv). It is very audible! I have never seen a speaker so (negatively) influenced by the room. Not just trying to get natural speech, but also providing a close timbre to the mains. It is very inconsistent.

There is a reason Axiom is the only loudspeaker company producing a TwwwT center channel speaker. The extreme lobing it causes is typically an unwanted characteristic of good loudspeaker design. We will be discussing some of this in our up and coming article.

 

[GranteedEV]

There is a reason Axiom is the only loudspeaker company producing a TwwwT center channel speaker.

Yeah, because it wins their "double blind tests"

 

[MinusTheBear]

Yeah, because it wins their "double blind tests"

What they do is NOT double-blind.

... LOL

(I know you were being sarcastic)

 

[MinusTheBear]

Been following that AVS thread...

I wouldn't mind hearing from Dave Fabrikant of Ascend on his take on crossover design and parts quality. He seems very knowledgeable and forthcoming and also places value on good quality parts like air cores in critical paths even in a $298 speaker (170 on sale currently)! As he is an ex M&K designer so I'm sure they did some pretty cool stuff over there with crossover design as well.

Crossover parts is an interesting debate. But it can be summed up in a few words why it is so contentious. It really boils down to money. Manufactures either don't want to cut into their profit margins to build a better product or they don't want to raise their prices because they fear losing any perceived competitive advantage.

It's also the easiest area to cut corners since it is "hidden" from the consumer.

 

[GranteedEV]

Well...

that thread has taken quite the turn from the importance of "quality crossover parts/design, cabinet build, and driver integration, each of which have a measurable difference before we get to analyzing the audible consequences" to "I can hear the difference between different colors of wire, and don't bother asking for any empirical evidence"

One feels that even if you can measure it, it doesn't prove you can hear it, and the other feels you can certainly hear it, but that doesn't prove you can measure it.

Honestly, even though the entire thread is basically anti-axiom, i have to say that it's axiom that's coming out as looking "sane". Just goes to show how opinionated people can be.

 

[billy p]

Well...

that thread has taken quite the turn from the importance of "quality crossover parts/design, cabinet build, and driver integration, each of which have a measurable difference before we get to analyzing the audible consequences" to "I can hear the difference between different colors of wire, and don't bother asking for any empirical evidence"

One feels that even if you can measure it, it doesn't prove you can hear it, and the other feels you can certainly hear it, but that doesn't prove you can measure it.

Honestly, even though the entire thread is basically anti-axiom, i have to say that it's axiom that come out as looking "sane", if not correct.

Danny Richie.....enough said!

Ps: I wonder what happened to the OP....any ideas?

 

[GranteedEV]

Danny Richie.....enough said!

He's actually got me brainstorming ideas on how to measure the differences between caps for audio purposes (besides the obvious issues with electrolytics)...

Okay, only a little. I really don't care.

 

[gene]

Honestly, even though the entire thread is basically anti-axiom, i have to say that it's axiom that's coming out as looking "sane". Just goes to show how opinionated people can be.

Except for their misunderstanding on comb filtering, declaring victory on their blind tests of their products vs their competitors using their own trained listeners familiar with the sonics of their speakers, their employees claiming their speakers are "similarly good" to price no object legitimately well engineered products, and some peculiar design choices they've made on some of their products, I agree. Nobody is perfect and we've certainly had our share of flubs in the past as well.

The good news is Axiom continues to improve their product performance and they never leave their customers hanging. Without hesitation I would recommend people buying from Axiom just based on customer service alone.

All the cable talk and color of cable nonsense affecting sound currently being discussed in the thread puts a bit too much snake oil in it for me

He's actually got me brainstorming ideas on how to measure the differences between caps for audio purposes

When I worked in the telcom business I actually did measurement parameters of caps and coils. In fact, I still have a 12k Magnetic Analyzer from Wayne Kerr at my disposal to do that very chore if ever needed. There are differences in caps and magnetics that can be measured and calculated. The real question is the audible impacts the parts will have in the overall design of a loudspeaker product.

I can tell you the very best loudspeaker designs don't use electrolytic caps in series with a tweeter without at least bypassing it with a low ESR poly. Most of the really good speaker designs use air core inductors on the mids and highs but typically not on the bass drivers b/c the parts values become too large for it to be practical.

 

[GranteedEV]

I think air core inductors are preferable, but nothing beats high order digital FIR filters. Looking at the pretty, narrow vertical lobes of a 110db/octave filter like the NHT XD just makes me warm and fuzzy inside.

 

[MinusTheBear]

That's just Danny being Danny I think the last few posts where just to get a rise out of AJ. I agree the whole cable burn in nonsense I have no interest in reading in what has been an otherwise informative thread. I learned my center channel has detrimental design flaws in terms of acoustical interference. Maybe that thread will spurn Axiom to develop a WTMW center. Wouldn't the VP180 suffer from the same problems as the VP150 with its off-axis performance as it uses 2 horizontal spaced tweeters on each side of its midrange drivers?

 

[gene]

That's just Danny being Danny I think the last few posts where just to get a rise out of AJ. I agree the whole cable burn in nonsense I have no interest in reading in what has been an otherwise informative thread. I learned my center channel has detrimental design flaws in terms of acoustical interference. Maybe that thread will spurn Axiom to develop a WTMW center. Wouldn't the VP180 suffer from the same problems as the VP150 with its off-axis performance as it uses 2 horizontal spaced tweeters on each side of its midrange drivers?

Danny does dabble in some of the esoterics but man the guy really knows a lot about loudspeaker design. I must admit I misjudged him years ago when we wrote our articles about driver break in and he came here to rail on us.

I think the VP180 would be a significant improvement over the VP150. It would be interesting to measure both speakers at 2 meters on/off axis to see if the lobing issues are lessened.

If you are enjoying the sound of your VP150, don't let all this theory bring you down. What matters is how the speakers perform in your home for your listening environment.

 

[riker1384]

I assumed this thread was about Harman. They use blind testing, and they are apparently moving their engineering to China.

 

[MinusTheBear]

Danny does dabble in some of the esoterics but man the guy really knows a lot about loudspeaker design. I must admit I misjudged him years ago when we wrote our articles about driver break in and he came here to rail on us.

I think the VP180 would be a significant improvement over the VP150. It would be interesting to measure both speakers at 2 meters on/off axis to see if the lobing issues are lessened.

If you are enjoying the sound of your VP150, don't let all this theory bring you down. What matters is how the speakers perform in your home for your listening environment.

I like learning about products both good and bad. Even if it's what I own. That's what makes it fun for me and allows me to better my purchasing decisions in the future. I try not to let cognitive dissonance bias my why of thinking. However, that is not to say I have never fallen prey to cognitive dissonance. Acoustical interference makes sense though and it would show up with poor speech intelligibility. This is a common complaint of the VP150.

 

[GO-NAD!]

Danny does dabble in some of the esoterics but man the guy really knows a lot about loudspeaker design. I must admit I misjudged him years ago when we wrote our articles about driver break in and he came here to rail on us.

He seemed to have a lot of valid points to make...at first. Then, he threw his credibility under the bus with his last few posts. If he was just trying to get a rise out of AJ, he really took a gamble with how stock people are going to place in his views.

 

[billy p]

He seemed to have a lot of valid points to make...at first. Then, he threw his credibility under the bus with his last few posts. If he was just trying to get a rise out of AJ, he really took a gamble with how stock people are going to place in his views.

I've followed that thread too and I recall another member calling those who follow Danny as "seagulls following a ship" ...I beilieve, did so for good reason....

I can't seem to find that post, but I saw it and I know who posted it...lol.