Interconnects: Are we just hearing things?

[davetroy]

And if we are, what are the real odds of this: A local dealer let me take home two pairs of Nordost interconnects to audition. One pair retails at about $120 a meter and the other at about $170 (they're the Wyrewizard brand, Dreamcaster and Enchantress). We currently have one-meter Straightwire Chorus interconnects connecting our Rotel 1072 and 1062 CD player and integrated amp to Vandersteen 2ce speakers.

Anyway, we did a blind test, meaning that I kept changing cables, and she kept saying what she liked about the sound with each, not knowing which cables were connected. I did this nine times, always with the same song (on a good quality recording), and a few times I didn't change the wires. Judging from her responses, she ranked the wires (favorite to least favorite) exactly to the price of the cables eight out of nine times, and the only time she was wrong was when I didn't change out the most-expensive cables. That time she thought they were the middle pair, but she said, "I know they're not the least expensive pair."

Now, I've read about the science of interconnects (and I'm a skeptic when it comes to the value of expensive cables, too), but do the math (hey, that's science, too!): the odds of her getting all nine right would've been about 19,000-1 (3 to the ninth?). So the odds of her just guessing and getting 8 out of 9 right were...well, I'm not sure. About 7,000-1? And each time I asked her what she liked about each pair, she pretty much said the same things I was thinking (about soundstage, separation, etc).

Keep in mind that we went into this not expecting to hear a difference. But now my skepticism is waning a bit. Could we have just been hearing things?

 

[evilkat]

If the wires are truely good quality wires, I have no doubt they will sound better than your average interconnect wire, running by power chords.

I just find it hard to believe that you can truely hear a difference between a $120 wire and a $170 wire (and I'm assuming here, that they're of very good build quality).

 

[Nick250]

There are a million threads on this topic... let's not start new one.

Nick

 

[mtrycrafts]

. and the only time she was wrong was when I didn't change out the most-expensive cables.

That is your clue to the mystery. If you would have done a better switching and blinding protocol, that number would have been 50/50, guaranteed. That is the historical evidence over the decades of cable DBT.



Keep in mind that we went into this not expecting to hear a difference.

This is irrelevant to the outcome. The quality of your testing protocol is, how well it is randomized, how well it is blinded.

But now my skepticism is waning a bit.

Do some more testing with better controls. Don't ask for opinions, too subjective. Rather, do 10 trials at least, with 9 correct guessing. Do coin flips for cable A or B, do a better job at concealing the cable and don't be in the room after the swap or make contact with the listener.
Have the listener just write down her guess which cable it is, period, no subjective rating. After the test you compare your cable used to her answers and let us know.

 

[davetroy]

Do some more testing with better controls. Don't ask for opinions, too subjective. Rather, do 10 trials at least, with 9 correct guessing. Do coin flips for cable A or B, do a better job at concealing the cable and don't be in the room after the swap or make contact with the listener.
Have the listener just write down her guess which cable it is, period, no subjective rating. After the test you compare your cable used to her answers and let us know.[/QUOTE]

That sounds like an even more subjective way to do the testing; now you're asking the person to match sounds with cables. I never asked her which pair she thought was which (although one time she volunteered it). I just asked her what she thought about the sound of each, and it so happened that she kept matching best sound to the most expensive cables. And we weren't using just two sets; we were using three sets. And she never saw the cable.

Anyway, I don't want to belabor this point. We'd probably get just as far reaching a consensus on abortion!

By the way, we did a similar test with two pre-owned DACs: the Pro Prime and Pro Prime 2. I ran my Rotel CD player through the DACs using the coaxial cable and also also through the RCA connects straight to the integrated amp and kept switching off via the remote control. In that case, after numerous blind tests, we were both 50%; couldn't detect a real difference.

 

[JoeE SP9]

And if we are, what are the real odds of this: A local dealer let me take home two pairs of Nordost interconnects to audition. One pair retails at about $120 a meter and the other at about $170 (they're the Wyrewizard brand, Dreamcaster and Enchantress). We currently have one-meter Straightwire Chorus interconnects connecting our Rotel 1072 and 1062 CD player and integrated amp to Vandersteen 2ce speakers.

Anyway, we did a blind test, meaning that I kept changing cables, and she kept saying what she liked about the sound with each, not knowing which cables were connected. I did this nine times, always with the same song (on a good quality recording), and a few times I didn't change the wires. Judging from her responses, she ranked the wires (favorite to least favorite) exactly to the price of the cables eight out of nine times, and the only time she was wrong was when I didn't change out the most-expensive cables. That time she thought they were the middle pair, but she said, "I know they're not the least expensive pair."

Now, I've read about the science of interconnects (and I'm a skeptic when it comes to the value of expensive cables, too), but do the math (hey, that's science, too!): the odds of her getting all nine right would've been about 19,000-1 (3 to the ninth?). So the odds of her just guessing and getting 8 out of 9 right were...well, I'm not sure. About 7,000-1? And each time I asked her what she liked about each pair, she pretty much said the same things I was thinking (about soundstage, separation, etc).

Keep in mind that we went into this not expecting to hear a difference. But now my skepticism is waning a bit. Could we have just been hearing things?

Although my opinion about wires differs from the norm here (I think there are differences) it is impossible for (properly working) speaker wires or interconnects to have any effect on separation.

 

[mtrycrafts]

That sounds like an even more subjective way to do the testing; now you're asking the person to match sounds with cables.

No, I am just asking for a same or difference judgement. It should be rather easy, easier than a subjective opinion of the sound.

I never asked her which pair she thought was which (although one time she volunteered it).

You should. If she has a strong feeling for a cable due to sonic differences, then it would be rather easy to pick the correct cable every time. But, that has yet to happen in 30 years of testing.


I just asked her what she thought about the sound of each, and it so happened that she kept matching best sound to the most expensive cables.

Due to the flaws in the experiment, nothing more.


And we weren't using just two sets; we were using three sets.

Well, just do 2 sets the next time.

And she never saw the cable.

that is the claim. Perhaps subconscious memory did due to poor controls.

Anyway, I don't want to belabor this point. We'd probably get just as far reaching a consensus on abortion!

We just need better controls on the test, not a consensus of cable sound.

By the way, we did a similar test with two pre-owned DACs: the Pro Prime and Pro Prime 2. I ran my Rotel CD player through the DACs using the coaxial cable and also also through the RCA connects straight to the integrated amp and kept switching off via the remote control. In that case, after numerous blind tests, we were both 50%; couldn't detect a real difference.

If a dac doesn't why would cables do? Certainly a much simpler electrical signal path than a DAC.
Try the better controls suggested and see what happens.

 

[highfihoney]

I wouldnt put too much stock or cash into the whole cable/power cord thingy,save your cash & spend it on gear instead.I also have a dealer who lets me audition cables & gear & out of all the different cables ive tried the only differences in sound i heard were more like very very slight adjustments in the overall tone of the music,buying better gear like speakers & amps is a much better investment & yeilds real benifits that can be heard.

A good way to audition different cables at the same time without buying alot of expensive equipment is to run a cd player with variable inputs & fixed inputs,after matching the volume level with a db meter then switch back & forth between cd1 & cd2,you wont hear much if anything at all.

 

[porziob]

IC differences

I can smell the chum in the water. This has been flogged to death & then some. There will only be a difference with poorly designed & executed ICs.

 

[davetroy]

I'm convinced. I've decided instead...

...to rebuild my living room. I've contracted the guy who designed the acoustics for the opera house in Seattle. The whole job shouldn't cost more than a few million.

On a serious note, however, does anybody have any idea as to why two different Theta DACs wouldn't result in any noticeable improvement in the Rotel 1062s and 1072s. Is it because the DAC in the Rotel CD player is already pretty good? Okay, I buy that, but why would I notice very little difference when playing a Sirius home receiver through the Thetas? Is it because of the compression in Sirius' transmission?

Perhaps I should post this question in a different forum. Any suggestions?

 

[mtrycrafts]

...to rebuild my living room. I've contracted the guy who designed the acoustics for the opera house in Seattle. The whole job shouldn't cost more than a few million.

On a serious note, however, does anybody have any idea as to why two different Theta DACs wouldn't result in any noticeable improvement in the Rotel 1062s and 1072s. Is it because the DAC in the Rotel CD player is already pretty good? Okay, I buy that, but why would I notice very little difference when playing a Sirius home receiver through the Thetas? Is it because of the compression in Sirius' transmission?

Perhaps I should post this question in a different forum. Any suggestions?

DACs are another over hyped audio products. Compare the DAcs specs, FR, THD+N, etc. Flat is flat. Human acuity is anything but that good. Human JND is rather large. You need a lot of distortion to hear it in music, and on it goes

Here, have a read:

http://www.axiomaudio.com/distortion.html#

The noise test tones had to reach 8,000 Hz and above before 1% distortion became audible,

 

[Nick250]

...to rebuild my living room. I've contracted the guy who designed the acoustics for the opera house in Seattle. The whole job shouldn't cost more than a few million.

On a serious note, however, does anybody have any idea as to why two different Theta DACs wouldn't result in any noticeable improvement in the Rotel 1062s and 1072s. Is it because the DAC in the Rotel CD player is already pretty good? Okay, I buy that, but why would I notice very little difference when playing a Sirius home receiver through the Thetas? Is it because of the compression in Sirius' transmission?

Perhaps I should post this question in a different forum. Any suggestions?

My sense of DAC technology is that it is well understood, and that given the economies of scale there is not much for the expensive DACs to improve upon over those found in a mid range receiver. I have done no side by side comparisons, but if I was buying a new system, DACs would be pretty far down the list of things I would worry about. Mine might be a minority opinon however.

Nick

 

[davetroy]

My sense of DAC technology is that it is well understood, and that given the economies of scale there is not much for the expensive DACs to improve upon over those found in a mid range receiver. I have done no side by side comparisons, but if I was buying a new system, DACs would be pretty far down the list of things I would worry about. Mine might be a minority opinon however.

Nick

Thanks, Nick. I understand that, but how do you explain the lack of improvement in the Sirius receiver (it's an SR-H550), which is not even a mid-range piece of equipment? Is it simply that Sirius broadcasts at a relatively low band-width, and there's nothing a DAC can do to improve sub-par information that's fed into it?

 

[JoeE SP9]

If I have been informed correctly, Sirius uses a lossy compression scheme. If so there is no way to recover data that has already been discarded. In other words the best DAC in the world won't help because the signal is already f**ked.

 

[Nick250]

Thanks, Nick. I understand that, but how do you explain the lack of improvement in the Sirius receiver (it's an SR-H550), which is not even a mid-range piece of equipment? Is it simply that Sirius broadcasts at a relatively low band-width, and there's nothing a DAC can do to improve sub-par information that's fed into it?

Certainly garbage in, garbage out. Most certainly a DAC is not a device that improves a poor signal coming in. While you are trouble shooting your audio problem, forget about the DAC. It is not the issue. JoeE comments make a lot of sense to me.

Nick

 

[jneutron]

Although my opinion about wires differs from the norm here (I think there are differences) it is impossible for (properly working) speaker wires or interconnects to have any effect on separation.

It's impossible?

Hmmm..that's a rather sweeping assertion.

Upon what mathematical basis is that made?

Cheers, John

 

[mtrycrafts]

It's impossible?

Hmmm..that's a rather sweeping assertion.

Upon what mathematical basis is that made?

Cheers, John

properly working

would eliminate those that are mathematically in the range of audibly cables, no?

 

[mtrycrafts]

Mine might be a minority opinon however.
Nick

That depends on the crowd you are in

 

[jneutron]

properly working

would eliminate those that are mathematically in the range of audibly cables, no?

No.

Ic's form a ground loop, faraday's law of induction creates error voltages.

Speaker wires have non linear dissipative loss w/r to two or three way speakers, also they have non linear energy storage.

Joe clearly is unaware of these issues.

Cheers, John

 

[JoeE SP9]

Jneutron, how would any of the factors you mention effect separation?