Installed Emotiva XPA-5 and no difference in output

[Ator]

RF-7II are more sensitive than your present speakers. 50 watts on them will put you in hearing damage territory.

And the fronts matter. The punchy sound you're after involves frequencies well above those the sub produces, and your speakers can definitely deliver them. The loudness eq will result in a relative boost up to 200-300 hz or so. Try it.

Yea, I figured the RF 52II should be able to do it...it just seems like they struggle. I feel like I have to push the volume on them more than necessary. Put it this way..it sounds like a center speaker.

 

[ski2xblack]

You're not familiar with the non-linearity of human hearing, are you? Google up Fletcher-Munson for the whole enchilada, but in a nutshell, we all have reduced sensitivity to the frequency extremes at low volumes. That's what the old school loudness controls, and the newfangled Audyssey Dynamic EQ and YPAO Sound (if that's indeed the nomenclature) are all about.

Not sure where the whole "eq is bad" meme started, it's completely off base IMO.

 

[Ator]

RF-7II are more sensitive than your present speakers. 50 watts on them will put you in hearing damage territory.

And the fronts matter. The punchy sound you're after involves frequencies well above those the sub produces, and your speakers can definitely deliver them. The loudness eq will result in a relative boost up to 200-300 hz or so. Try it.

I figured the RF52 II should be able to do it. I just have to push the volume way too much to make it happen. Put it this way, they sound like the center channel speaker.

 

[Ator]

I figured the RF52 II should be able to do it. I just have to push the volume way too much to make it happen. Put it this way, they sound like the center channel speaker.

Sorry for the double post. I will try to play with the YPAO again.

However, putting aside what hardware I have now...what would be the focus area? Fronts and Sub? Amp?

What products do you recommend given my interest? I am sure the list is long but want to see if maybe based on some room dynamics I should consider different speakers or sub etc.

 

[Ator]

And...I guess another question...when should an Amp like the EMotiva -XPA 5 should be used?

 

[ski2xblack]

Oh, the previous advice on the subs I would agree with. A pair of SVS SB13 would do nicely.

I would strongly recommend you not overlook what is currently at your disposal in terms of loudness equalization, as I don't feel you need any new kit to address the problems as you've stated them.

I think an XPA 5 for your speakers is a wild mis-allocation of resources that could go towards more subs. An amp like that would be fine for less sensitive speakers, or on speakers like yours in a large room perhaps, but the realistic chance that you actually need or would use such power with your particular speakers is slim.

 

[Ator]

Hi All,

So, I experimented with the manual parametric EQ settings. Yamaha has preset parametric EQ settings called, Flat, Front and Natural. All of them are abysmal and make the front speakers sound very thin and weak.

So, I started to tweak the manual EQ and definitely got improvements, however, it is three dimensional and is complicated to know what effect you are making. Rather than just blind trial and error, is there a best practice of what frequencies to typically adjust, how to scroll through the frequency, seems that I can set thresholds as well. I got things to a better spot but I can tell it's not perfect and may have some distortion at play.

Is there any recommended starting points? Can you preload other EQ settings? I am going to research some of this today and wanted to let everyone know that manually adjusting EQ for sure is something that I overlooked but now I am just blindly adjusting the EQ. Which is fun to a point.

 

[Steve81]

Rather than just blind trial and error, is there a best practice of what frequencies to typically adjust, how to scroll through the frequency, seems that I can set thresholds as well.

Best practice involves being able to take measurements of before and after to see what's actually happening as you apply various filters. If you're after "punch", I'd recommend starting with a modest 3dB boost centered at 120Hz, with a Q of 2.

 

[herbu]

Am I missing something?

Ator, you have re-discovered what many of us learned the same way. The advantage of a separate amp paired with a top shelf AVR is tenuous.

The additional power is often superfluous, especially at normal volumes in a normal room. However, most of us who did the same thing you did, kept our amps. (I am currently the proud owner of an XPA-5, just like you.)

The amp will give you assurance, peace of mind, that any perceived shortcomings in your system are not power related.

You'll never have to worry, or even consider, the sensitivity of speakers you want.

The 5 LEDs on front of the XPA-5 look really cool as they sequence on.

Your bragging rights are substantially enhanced when telling/showing your system to normal friends.

Now that you know, even with 200wpc, your system doesn't sound the way you want, you can be relatively sure it is your speakers and/or sub(s). My suggestion is to keep the amp, and continue your quest for speakers & subs. If you sell the amp and get new speakers, you'll always wonder if they would sound better with an amp.

 

[Ator]

Ator, you have re-discovered what many of us learned the same way. The advantage of a separate amp paired with a top shelf AVR is tenuous.

The additional power is often superfluous, especially at normal volumes in a normal room. However, most of us who did the same thing you did, kept our amps. (I am currently the proud owner of an XPA-5, just like you.)

The amp will give you assurance, peace of mind, that any perceived shortcomings in your system are not power related.

You'll never have to worry, or even consider, the sensitivity of speakers you want.

The 5 LEDs on front of the XPA-5 look really cool as they sequence on.

Your bragging rights are substantially enhanced when telling/showing your system to normal friends.

Now that you know, even with 200wpc, your system doesn't sound the way you want, you can be relatively sure it is your speakers and/or sub(s). My suggestion is to keep the amp, and continue your quest for speakers & subs. If you sell the amp and get new speakers, you'll always wonder if they would sound better with an amp.

Thanks for that...it does look nice with the system. I slept on it, and plan to keep the Amp so in the future I can have the flexibility you mention. So, I feel the freedom now to go to better speakers and even not worry much about the AVR specs in the future. Plus the jam so much into the AVR that the Amp side suffers so I have taken that component of the AVR out of the mix.

 

[ski2xblack]

Ator, using the PEQ is a good start, and Steve's suggestion is on target as well.

The problem with that approach is that you'll be dialing in fixed boost relative to volume. If you dial it in for that warm punchy sound at low volumes, and then incerase the volume with those settings, it will sound too bassy.

You need to dive into the user manual and figure out how to engage YPAO Volume on your AVR. That will apply varying amounts of eq dependent on where you have the volume set, warm and punchy when low, and progressively more flat as you turn it up.

Before you go through the hassle of replacing your speakers (time, $$), make sure you have exhausted available options in system tuning (free!).

 

[Ator]

Another thought, I was looking at the SVS PB12-PLUS specs compared to my Klipsch SW110. Wow the SVS is a massive sub and 4x the watts.

Based on my room size maybe the SW110 is not appropriate and causing part of the dynamic issues in the mid range/punchy sounds? The listening area is 15' wide x20' long (carpeted) but it is not a fully enclosed area. It is a finished basement and there is another 25 feet in length (transitioned to hardwood) to a pool table area etc (that space echoes a lot). And another 15 feet in width to a bar area and my home office.

So maybe the SVS sub would help with the room dynamics and maybe even new fronts would be next?

 

[Ator]

Ator, using the PEQ is a good start, and Steve's suggestion is on target as well.

The problem with that approach is that you'll be dialing in fixed boost relative to volume. If you dial it in for that warm punchy sound at low volumes, and then incerase the volume with those settings, it will sound too bassy.

You need to dive into the user manual and figure out how to engage YPAO Volume on your AVR. That will apply varying amounts of eq dependent on where you have the volume set, warm and punchy when low, and progressively more flat as you turn it up.

Before you go through the hassle of replacing your speakers (time, $$), make sure you have exhausted available options in system tuning (free!).

Thanks, and that is exactly what I experience last night in adjusting the PEQ. While I get the fuller sound it is a little muddy now and gets worse with some very light distortion on some songs. Then the dynamics shift a bit when going to a movie/video. Much of that I can improve using the center channel.

Anyway, the YPAO documentation stinks and really does not provide any useful instruction. They basically make it look like you set it and forget it. Do you have or does anyone know of better documentation on the YPAO settings?

Thanks

 

[markw]

Ator, here's some info on that Fletcher-Munson curve with which you're bucking heads.

http://www.teachmeaudio.com/recording/sound-reproduction/fletcher-munson-curves/

 

[j_garcia]

Yes your sub is part of the problem. It is definitely not sufficient for that space. Start with the sub, the mains may be OK, but long term I'd plan on swapping them out for something better too.

 

[ski2xblack]

Sorry, I'm not much help regarding the Yamaha documentation.

So your room is fairly large. That Klipsch sub is just too puny for the job, so first on your shopping list would be more appropriate subs.

Your speakers should be capable enough, as they are on the more dynamic side. That XPA amp is sounding more appropriate given the room size. It is certainly able to take them to (past?) their limits, so use caution, particularly with eq boosts down low. Make sure the speakers are set to "small" (high passed at 80 hz).

 

[mtrycrafts]

Also, knowing the frequency response of your speaker setup in room is a must to see where it is lacking or overly boosted. Perhaps the highs are exaggerated hiding the mid band. Who knows without proper measurements and plots.