In store bargaining and markup?

P

Paradise

Enthusiast
Finally, someone who took the time to think of the dealer. There's a point where people wanting to pay a certain price makes it not worth selling some things. If I can't make money on it, there's no reason to bother and some people actually become indignant about that. I will not lose money just to make a sale- that's just stupid. If a dealer carries inventory, has a store, employees and doesn't want to become a charitable organization, they have to make money on every sale in order to keep the lights on, pay the employees, not lose the lease, pay the interest on the inventory (especially if they floorplan) and any other expenses. Every single person who I have ever talked with wants to be able to save money from their job. Some ask for a raise, some have automatic raises, some get a part-time job and some add to their skills/education but nobody wants to go into debt. THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A B&M RETAILER AND ANYONE ELSE WHO WANTS SOMETHING LEFT OVER AFTER EXPENSES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. Why do customers think they have the right to deprive a dealer of their profit? You all call it bargaining, haggling or "part of the fun" but for a retailer, I assure you all, that part is absolutely no fun at all. There is absolutely no point in breaking even on a sale. At that point, being in business is futile and when online sellers, who may or may not be authorized by the manufacturer, sell things for less than regular dealer cost, people think they should be able to buy that item at a store for the same price and that's just not gonna happen.

The worst people are the ones who pick the dealer's brain about every little detail and then buy online. People like them suck and waste countless hours of time for sales people and store owners. That's time they could be devoting to activities that actually help keep the business in operation. These same people then want the local guy to service the items and I can guarantee one thing- nobody wants to lose a sale because they can't match a price and then be expected to break even or lose money on servicing that equipment. Many companies don't even pay a dealer when they have to service things- they expect it to be sent in so the customer can wait for it to be returned.

I fully expect some of you to hate me when you read this but, having been in consumer electronics retail for over 30 years, I'm completely sick of people telling others (or expecting) to demand a lower price, buy only used or online, use equipment and then return it or generally screw the local dealer(s). We have a right to make a profit and customers have no right to tell us how much is fair. What good will it do for all of the local guys to go under? Online retailers provide no followup service, don't install, you can't walk in and buy parts or accessories, don't really want people calling for advice and other than having their reputation decline, don't care about anything other than making money.

Best buy is now the largest chain of electronics retailers and they recently stated that they want to concentrate more on online selling. If all of the small local shops fail and one giant is the only place to buy things, they can name their price and the customers will have no choice but to pay it, or not buy those brands/models.

There is absolutely no difference between a person who wants to save money and a retailer trying to make a profit- they're exactly the same thing, except the retailer has people telling them that they're making too much.

Flame on.
You're exactly right.:D

I think some people have the idea that if a product has an MSRP of $1000, that the dealers cost is $500ish and the dealer pockets the remaining $500. Ummm, no. The dealer may have had to pay for shipping, flooring, and other hidden costs that the consumer doesn't even know exist. Then, after all the overhead is paid for, the dealer has to pay taxes on the remaining profit. After that, the business gets what crumbs are left over. Oh, and the customer wants 24/7 tech support, doesnt' want to pay sales tax, etc. etc.

Paying in cash doesn't make much of a difference, really. The cheapest way usually, is for the dealer to swipe a debit card. This usually only costs 25-35 cents. Credit cards can cost usually 2-3% for the retailer and a few points more for an AMEX. Who pays 7% on a credit card?!?!

I just call customer's bluff when they tell me they can get something for less then what my cost is, somewhere else. I just tell them "That sounds like a smokin' deal! I'd buy it from them." I can't be married to a problem for $0 or even a few dollars. It's not worth it. I'd be further ahead just throwing my money in the toilet. Usually within a few questions I can tell if the customer just wants a cheap price or a comprehensive solution.

Highfigh is correct....How many of the people on these boards that demand that a dealer make nothing or very little on a sale work at their jobs for free or for next to nothing? ;)

Some customers haggle a little just for sport, which can be fine. Generally, those customers are already sold on the product(s) and services and they are just having a little fun or perhaps that's how they just do business. I have a few customers that come from other countries where haggling is how they are raised and I understand that. I know they like what I'm proposing, they like the products and the idea of the finished system, they like me, etc. They are basically all signed up and then they see what kind of deal they can get. No biggie. I may throw in free TV brackets, free remote programming, free TV basic calibrations, some BluRay movies to get them going, etc etc. They also have my cell phone so they can call me just about any time. I wish I could count how many times I've received tech question calls on Friday night while I'm out at dinner or on Sunday morning while I'm out relaxing where customers have pushed a wrong button or something and I need to walk them through the solution over the phone. It's no big deal to me and it makes them feel better about the whole experience. They are paying for a professional service and that's what they get. If someone wants a cheap deal, go see a clerk/ boxpusher wearing a nametag at BestCurcuitBuyCityElectronics.:D:D:D
 
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H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
nitin_mehra20-

"1) I am not against making profit. Even if one buys online, the company is not selling products for a loss. If they would have, they won't stay in business long."

Online sellers can sell for less because in some cases, they sell what they haven't even ordered yet. If this is the case and they sell a huge number, they can go to the supplier and say they have a large number already sold and they want a better price. For a large number, a supplier will usually cut a few points. Also, some online sellers are part of a company that also is a wholesale distributor and they already have an advantage compared to regular retailers. These are the ones who sell for less than dealer cost and can get away with it because they fall under the umbrella of "authorized dealer", for a while. Harmony remotes were being sold for less than cost by some of these and that's why their distribution network was completely changed. It's also why I and many other dealers stopped carrying them.

2) "Profit margins are fine as long as they benefit the seller and delivers quality to the consumer. I am not suggesting that the shop owner sell it for a loss, a profit margin of even 20-25% over and above the dealer cost seems like a fair buy, cause I am getting personalized service and a great ambiance to shop in, while the dealer is making a profit."

I don't want this to seem like a personal attach but you definitely don't know how much it costs to run a business and keep a store open, especially if they're in some kind of mall.

Let's do the math. If the average profit is 25% and they do $1M/yr, they need to pay (rough numbers)

Lease- $6000/mo
Insurance- $5000/yr
interest- $500/month (just a guess)
Owner's salary- $50K/yr
Wages for 5 employees- $30K each/yr
Advertising- $3000/yr
Unemployment insurance- $15K/yr
Office supplies- $3000/yr
Accounting software and fees- $3000/yr
Utilities (Elect, Nat Gas, Phone, Internet, Cable/Sat)- $5K minimum- costs more for a business

This is a partial list, so if this is added, it comes to $246K. The wages are pretty weak and for the amount of work that goes into this kind of endevour, that margin isn't enough to make someone want to be in business for, long.

3) "But, if the sole aim of a dealership is to monopolize and arm twist the user to buy from them only and that too at an exorbitant cost, cause they want to extract the entire operational cost of operating their store plus profit from few buys a month, then it is not acceptable."

No dealer wants to sell goods that can be bought on every corner. That leads to massive price slashing and no profit, so they want exclusivity. If they can convince a manufacturer that they will do a better job of selling those lines, they may get it in an area where a dealer exists and it will either make the first one kick into high gear, drop the line or in some areas, they'll be dropped. We're not talking about selling clothes, we're talking about something that a customer may/will need/want pre-sale information and expertise, needs to be set up and not just hung on a rack and it will probably need follow-up contact with the customer. That costs money. An A/V store can't rely on having a sale every few weeks to clear out their inventory like Kohl's Department store can. Many dealers close after the New Year because they rely on December to be the bulk of the year's sales. A bad December spells doom for many marginal dealers. Being stressed out for 11 months/yr is not a good way to go through life and there's no way to predict how the market will react to the kind of BS that has happened in the last year.

3) "Cause few buys a month including my own is not my problem, I am also in the market to receive value as is the seller to make profit. If i am working my a** off to get a better deal, researching my product and trying to get a bargain, then he too should be working to offer better deals and advertise his services."

Offer better deals and advertise his services- those both cost the store money and unless the manufacturer offers special discounts, the manufacturers don't lower their prices. Ever. How then, will the dealer make money if people want better prices and more advertising? Sure, advertising can help bring people in but how does he know what people will buy? You can't advertise everything, all the time. That makes the local customer base think everything should sell for low prices all the time. Selling by volume moves boxes but it also makes keeping track of everything much harder. That costs money, too.

4) "Yes, if i had a store I would like to make a profit, but i would work towards it. I would advertize, give people great deals, personalized service at a "fair" markup."

Again, you mentioned three things that cost money and I guarantee that if you were in this kind of business, your idea of "fair" markup would change drastically in a short time, especially if you had online sellers to compete with.

5) "Personalized service and experience can only go as far, it cannot be made into an excuse to charge me 50-60% above cost IMO"

It would if you knew how much time, effort, stress, work, dedication, creativity, planning and risk was involved in it. A store owner has a lot at stake- the money spent before opening the doors for the first time can be staggering. This has to be recouped in some way and slashing prices, advertising frequently, having a large staff, a well laid-out store and large inventory don't help to cut costs.
 
H

highfigh

Seriously, I have no life.
Only a sucker would walk into a store and not at least try to negotiate a better deal on an expensive item. What's wrong with a fair deal? A win/win for both the customer and retailer. The customer feels proud they got what they wanted at a lower price and the dealer made some money. For most business owners, cash is always preferred, for tax reasons.
If the item is advertised, they can't sell it for less. If they do, they have to offer it to everyone who bought one, at the same lower price.

"Some money" won't keep a store open. A specific amount, based on annual store planning and estimates of increased expenses, determines how much they need to make. Also, inventory that is sold has to be replaced and the cost can increase between one order and the next. Sure, cost-averaging allows them to keep a more consistent price but sometimes, the price increases far more than expected and means that at the sale price, they'll lose money.

Cash is preferred, for tax purposes? Where did you pull that from? You think a dealer will just pull cash from the till and not declare it as income? That's more of a bar/restaurant or other "cash business" thing. Apparently, you didn't think about how easy it would be for IRS auditors to nail a business for this. Invoices, receipts, bank statements, ledgers and accounting programs, tax bills and personal banking all point to someone who tries to cheat the books. It's really easy to find. The numbers have to add up in the end- if a dealer hides the cash, how do they account for all of their costs, staying open and their own lifestyle?
 
droht

droht

Full Audioholic
I guess I'm in the middle on this. I don't care at all what the margin is on anything I buy. I look at the price and compare it to other options. If I think that a pair of B&Ws for $2000 from Mom & Pop Hi-fi are better than the latest and greatest ID speakers for $1000 then I'll buy the B&Ws. I will also try to get the best deal on them that I can, because I'd rather spend less.

I also have to say that some of highfigh's posts don't work for me. The sad story of the abused little guy is getting old. I've been treated poorly in more than a few shops. Treated well in others. The B&M owner or salesman has the distinct advantage of dealing with a customer in person, and of selling much more than just the lowest price. If you can't do that then don't complain.

ID has made this much more Darwinian in nature, and way better overall for the consumer imo. The ID companies who can deliver high value will prosper; those who can not do that will perish. Local B&Ms who specialized in arrogant bullying will be history. Those who can really help their customers will survive. The transitional period, that we are in now, is a bit messy, but I don't know how you can avoid that.
 
N

nitin_mehra20

Audioholic
Online sellers can sell for less because in some cases, they sell what they haven't even ordered yet. If this is the case and they sell a huge number, they can go to the supplier and say they have a large number already sold and they want a better price. For a large number, a supplier will usually cut a few points. Also, some online sellers are part of a company that also is a wholesale distributor and they already have an advantage compared to regular retailers. These are the ones who sell for less than dealer cost and can get away with it because they fall under the umbrella of "authorized dealer", for a while. Harmony remotes were being sold for less than cost by some of these and that's why their distribution network was completely changed. It's also why I and many other dealers stopped carrying them.
I agree that online retailers have advantages over the B&M stores in terms of inventory and the lead time to stock it up once the orders have been received. I would just say to this that it is a different business model. They play on volume while B&M would have to play on service, personal interaction and instant gratification to the consumer. And I do know people who go buy at B&M stores for the same ability to carry it out with them. They are paying a premium for it and that is acceptable. I too would need to pay a premium if i buy in a store, but I accept that as part of the deal but I only differ on how much a premium does that entail?

I don't want this to seem like a personal attach but you definitely don't know how much it costs to run a business and keep a store open, especially if they're in some kind of mall.

Let's do the math. If the average profit is 25% and they do $1M/yr, they need to pay (rough numbers)

Lease- $6000/mo
Insurance- $5000/yr
interest- $500/month (just a guess)
Owner's salary- $50K/yr
Wages for 5 employees- $30K each/yr
Advertising- $3000/yr
Unemployment insurance- $15K/yr
Office supplies- $3000/yr
Accounting software and fees- $3000/yr
Utilities (Elect, Nat Gas, Phone, Internet, Cable/Sat)- $5K minimum- costs more for a business

This is a partial list, so if this is added, it comes to $246K. The wages are pretty weak and for the amount of work that goes into this kind of endevour, that margin isn't enough to make someone want to be in business for, long.
You are correct! I know nothing about how much it costs to run a business. But is 1M an average sale figure for an year? Even by your own calculations at an average of 25% profit everyone got paid. The profit should be increased by moving more inventory. So instead of 1M if suppose the store sold 1.5M worth of goods the profit made increases.

I might be putting this in an exceeding simple fashion and the overall calculations may be more complex, but simple hiking the sale price can never form the basis of a great business, the customers need to be provided better quality at a reasonable cost. Otherwise, other people will step in who will solve this business problem and take up the market. It is happening in the US and around the world, the way the world is doing business is changing. The business establishments would need to change or perish.

The perfect example is the music industry, they cartelized and were selling music at an atrocious cost to the consumer. With the advent of the internet and online buying, there profits were eaten into. Now they have the RIAA and all other organizations hunting down their own customers :) They *will* eventually perish or they would be forced to do business a different way :)

No dealer wants to sell goods that can be bought on every corner. That leads to massive price slashing and no profit, so they want exclusivity. If they can convince a manufacturer that they will do a better job of selling those lines, they may get it in an area where a dealer exists and it will either make the first one kick into high gear, drop the line or in some areas, they'll be dropped. We're not talking about selling clothes, we're talking about something that a customer may/will need/want pre-sale information and expertise, needs to be set up and not just hung on a rack and it will probably need follow-up contact with the customer. That costs money. An A/V store can't rely on having a sale every few weeks to clear out their inventory like Kohl's Department store can. Many dealers close after the New Year because they rely on December to be the bulk of the year's sales. A bad December spells doom for many marginal dealers. Being stressed out for 11 months/yr is not a good way to go through life and there's no way to predict how the market will react to the kind of BS that has happened in the last year.
I agree that the situation is bad, but the same holds true for the consumer as well. They are increasingly looking for the best bang for their buck. As a consumer if I am coming out and trying to buy something despite a sucky economy I also expect some concessions from the buyer. If the buyer is just acting like a stuck up jerk than I will have to take my dollars elsewhere.

Its not the end of the world for either party, but if the current seller can't provide the service as a competitive price, the buyer would have to turn in to someone who does. Unless, the buyer is filthy rich and doesn't care about a few hundred dollars here and there.

Offer better deals and advertise his services- those both cost the store money and unless the manufacturer offers special discounts, the manufacturers don't lower their prices. Ever. How then, will the dealer make money if people want better prices and more advertising? Sure, advertising can help bring people in but how does he know what people will buy? You can't advertise everything, all the time. That makes the local customer base think everything should sell for low prices all the time. Selling by volume moves boxes but it also makes keeping track of everything much harder. That costs money, too.

Again, you mentioned three things that cost money and I guarantee that if you were in this kind of business, your idea of "fair" markup would change drastically in a short time, especially if you had online sellers to compete with.
As I mentioned above, the only way out of this is to change the way we do business, not to sound prudish, but the business world is increasing adhering to the Darwin's theory of the survival of the fittest :(

It would if you knew how much time, effort, stress, work, dedication, creativity, planning and risk was involved in it. A store owner has a lot at stake- the money spent before opening the doors for the first time can be staggering. This has to be recouped in some way and slashing prices, advertising frequently, having a large staff, a well laid-out store and large inventory don't help to cut costs.
And i appreciate the effort being put by the dealer to set it all up and give personalized service and as i mentioned before, I am *willing* to pay for this. All I am haggling for is how much??? :)
 
droht

droht

Full Audioholic
And i appreciate the effort being put by the dealer to set it all up and give personalized service and as i mentioned before, I am *willing* to pay for this. All I am haggling for is how much??? :)
This is THE point, I think. Nothing wrong with the haggle. If you don't want to haggle do the Saturn thing and post pricing and state that it is non-negotiable. Thing is, haggling works both ways. Sales guys are evaluating every customer and trying to determine what they will be willing to pay. If a dealer is willing to give a 5% discount on anything, but you don't ask, guess what? No discount for you.
 
N

nitin_mehra20

Audioholic
You're exactly right.:D
Some customers haggle a little just for sport, which can be fine. Generally, those customers are already sold on the product(s) and services and they are just having a little fun or perhaps that's how they just do business. I have a few customers that come from other countries where haggling is how they are raised and I understand that. I know they like what I'm proposing, they like the products and the idea of the finished system, they like me, etc. They are basically all signed up and then they see what kind of deal they can get. No biggie.
And who might these nationalities be??? :D:D:D
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
If you talk to the store owner of a local high end store (not a salesman), and have CASH to physically show him, I would wager you have a very good chance of getting a substantial discount. I would offer, cash, 30-35% under the retail, and bargain/haggle from there. But only with the owner... and only with physical cash to show....

-Chris

This guy knows how to negotiate! ;) :D
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
"WmAX" has a very good point....CASH....money in hand !
Credit cards are very expensive for retail stores - the fees are high, often 7% or higher.

So, if you really want to haggle, the store owner has to know you can afford to buy the equipment "on the spot" with cash, and he does not have any further processing costs or risk (checks, credit cards, time payment plans all cost a dealer money and have associated risks of non-payment).
I would find a new person to accept my card transactions if they were 7%.

3.5%-4% is on the higher side. Business cards are the one's one must watch out for. Some of them carry fees in upwards of 6%.
 
annunaki

annunaki

Moderator
but has never owned a non-cash business and been audited.
No one said he would not have to pay sales tax or hide anything from a businesses standpoint.

Knowing how Chris uses a product and what he expects from a dealer probably skews my opinion on that slightly.

If I know someone is not going to be a drain on resources (mine or my sales people's time) and knows their stuff but needs a deal on product, I would rather a chap like that purchases from me than somewhere else. He is not the prototypical know nothing customer, and if anything, has similar friends that can add some revenue.

Making an exception to standard mark-up is necessary in some situations. One must pick those situations carefully though.
 
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M

markw

Audioholic Overlord
Whatever...

But I cannot think of any up-and-up storefront operation that would be impressed by someone throwing cash on the table. It's like asking for the transaction be done under the table (wink wink ;)). Maybe a car dealer, but an audio establishment?

but, whatever you say...
 
M

MatthewB.

Audioholic General
Highfigh, I liked your post but have to disagree with it. I would love to give my business to the local guy, but if he can't even come clse to what i can get it for online, me as the consumer is going to go the cheaper route. I don't care about the salesmen commision, how much it costs to run the store, all I care abot is what will save me the most money. For example, I recently bought a pair of Deftech 450's from an online Authorized dealer for 250.00/pair. My local store wanted 650.00 and was willing to give me 10% off and that's it. So let's do the math. in store 650.00 - 65.00 =585.00 + 47.00 tax = 632.00, or I pay 250.00 (online) no tax for the same exact pair of speakers with warranty. Now I work hard for my money, and have little to spend on luxery items. What do you think is worth it to me to buy? If the local guy isnt willing to even get close in price, then the local guy is going to be in trouble.
 
M

MatthewB.

Audioholic General
Highfigh, I know a viable repsonse will be, that I can get more personable attention at the local B&M, but I have found that with some research any answers I may need, i can easily get online. And with the net, i can get a more "truthful" answer than the local guy. In fact when I do go to the local store and have a question, i find 90% of the time, the salesmen going to the web to try and find me an answer (something I could easily do myself).
 
N

nitin_mehra20

Audioholic
Highfigh, I liked your post but have to disagree with it. I would love to give my business to the local guy, but if he can't even come clse to what i can get it for online, me as the consumer is going to go the cheaper route. I don't care about the salesmen commision, how much it costs to run the store, all I care abot is what will save me the most money. For example, I recently bought a pair of Deftech 450's from an online Authorized dealer for 250.00/pair. My local store wanted 650.00 and was willing to give me 10% off and that's it. So let's do the math. in store 650.00 - 65.00 =585.00 + 47.00 tax = 632.00, or I pay 250.00 (online) no tax for the same exact pair of speakers with warranty. Now I work hard for my money, and have little to spend on luxery items. What do you think is worth it to me to buy? If the local guy isnt willing to even get close in price, then the local guy is going to be in trouble.
My point exactly!! You just can't give away your hard earned money just for personalized attention... The prices, if they are comparable with the B&M a little higher say 10-15% i will still go with the B&M for the sake of convenience and the ability to get back the speaker if something is wrong with it.

But if the price difference is say 20-40%, i just cannot justify paying that much extra :(
 
M

Mtn. Steel

Junior Audioholic
WOW! Great thread with tons of good input for me.
The reason that I created this thread is because I have very limited options where I live in the way of dealers. The two that are here carry items that I have no interest in. I really think that I want Paradigms. The closest is 40 minutes away. Whenh I called them, they said that they did not have the Cinema 220. 330 or Millenia 20 in stock, but that they could order them for me. That means I buy them unheard. Dealer 2 is 90 minutes away and has all of these in stock for my auditioning. Cool right! I ask the guy if there are any sales, promotions, used or demos available. He responds, "yes March 31 is the last day of our Paradigm promo, but come see us and we will work with you".
Highfigh take note: My question is this. I am more than willing to drive 100 miles or more to audition speakers. They said that they will "work with me". I know that they will make money from me and that is totally cool. To make that drive costs me $40.00 in gas. I will have cash. I am also not a penny pinching dikhead. Heck, I need them to be in business for years to come in case I need service, warranty etc. I will also need, speaker wire, banana clips etc. So, for example the Cinema 330 retail price is $299.00 each. I need 5 of them. In my math that is about $1500.00 plus accesories which I could get from Monoprice cheaper, but I want them now. Let`s say $2000.00 however they want paid...cash CC or Paypal. Again, I do not want to offend, but actually create a working relationship with my dealer. Should I offer $1500.00? 16, 17, 18??? I want this dealer to not hate me, but do their best for me. How does one (who is not in the biz) know what to do? Plain and simple, if you do not ask for a better price, you will not get one. On the contrary, if you are an *** and walk with cost, will you get respect and service in the future? How does one determine that line!!!
 
ParadigmDawg

ParadigmDawg

Audioholic Overlord
I simply set a price in my head and then I leave the store with gear in hand at that price.

There is a lot that occurs between these two things but you either "have that" or you don't.
 
bandphan

bandphan

Banned
When i wasnt in the biz, my discounts were based on my purchase history and the realationship i had with the store. Yes i did get good discounts but i spent some pennies to get it. My history with sound advice, Fl was well over 35k before i was 30 and while many times i paid full retail for certain products, they worked with me when they could and i thought all my purchases had value. That is the end result buying from a B&M. Take SVS for example, the ultra is an awesome sub, but if you couple it with an eq program it is fairly close to a velo dd series that includes the software. Before the software its an incredible sub value, but many need the software for optimal performance and that wasnt an option for many.
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
LOL! This is absurd. I have haggled all sorts of deals on new gear in audio shops. Note I said aim for the 35% or so as a starting point. Of course you are going to actually end up in a middle area - more like 20% at best - but you have start low. Some stores may only knock off 10%. But it's silly to pay full retail in these one manned owned shops IMO. You can usually get the price down in my personal experience.

Sometimes the sales manager can negotiate price instead of the owner.

-Chris
 
J

jostenmeat

Audioholic Spartan
I personally think 35% is actually quite reasonable. Just my experiences, however, I am lucky to be nearby to so many stores in CA. So. My first foray into AV, and yeah I jumped into the deep end, started with the goal of auditioning 50 speakers over 4-5 months. I met and spoke with double digit dealers. I only got to 25 speakers, but my Mead notebook was already entirely filled.

It all ended with an envelope filled with benjamins given to the winning dealer. $11,000 worth. The MSLP on just two speakers was that, and that's not even including tax.

What else did I get besides those two speakers? 5 more speakers, 4 nice speaker stands, dedicated pre/pro, 70lb mch amp, 8 interconnects, and I'm sure other things too.

Everything was manufacturer warrantied.

Since then, I've traded in that pre/pro and center speaker towards other items.

YMMV.

Parting shot: the most drastic price drops I've ever heard come from a dealer's mouth was after I mentioned something like, "Aw, gee, I was really thinking of picking this up on Audiogon for $X,XXX" . . .

edit: but, yeah. some dealers just don't budge. I wanted a JL F113 subwoofer, and the local dealer didn't move on price. Five minutes of research on my favorite forums, and I get it from a dealer in Texas with over $1,000 in savings.
 

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