Impressed with Tubes!

F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
The XK-3's a fantastic board. I haven't had the chance to play one, but I've heard it recorded by some good organists and through a Leslie cabinet it pretty much nails it. Hammond-Suzuki still makes tube Leslies (122XB for the new digital organs, 122A and 147A for legacy rigs) and some solid-state cabinets as well. I'm intrigued by the new Leslie 3300, a tube pre/solid-state power biamped road Leslie with 220 watts on the 15" and 80 watts on the horn rotor. None of this gear is cheap though...but the XK system is a great way to get a new Hammond rig. I'll never part with my '63 B-3 or '53 B-2 but I'd love an XK-3 board and 3300 for portability...I don't get to gig out with the "beast" much except for my church gig, since I keep my B-2 stashed at church.

Todd in Cheesecurdistan
I started piano lessons in grade school. The Church had a B2 and my teacher, who normally played it, allowed me to do some simple things on it during services. I couldn't do the pedals (or even reach them from the benc for that matter) so she handled that while I played the melody sitting beside her. I was about 8 years old. I've never forgotten it.

I was pretty impressed with the XK-3. I fussed with it for a little while and worked up a Jimmy Smith sort of sound and played some tunes for a little while on it. I even got an applause from some of the customers. Very slick instrument to be sure. Only about $6K complete. You couldn't buy a vintage B3 for anything near that.
 
K

kitjv

Audioholic Intern
Thanks for your post. Please don't let any certain incessant postings get in the way of what you are trying to find out. They are trying to help you, whether it seems like it or not... you'll get used to it here.

Please keep us (or me) updated with comparisons to the Perseus. I was pretty curious about that unit recently, as its somewhat affordable compared to other extremely expensive tubed pre's, and the Perseus has HT pass-thru, which may or may not become a prerequisite for me in the future assuming I ever do go the way of tubed pre-amps.



At another forum, a common response to tube gear is "the ABC's of tubes":
Arc, BAT, Cary, a couple of others I forget. One fellow audio NUT I believe has listenened to pretty much all of the Rogue gear, and IIRC, he prefers Cary, but again this if I remember correctly. Anyways, this stuff can get very expensive very quickly. Its nice the Perseus isn't ridiculously costly, even if not cheap by any means. Oh ya, another "affordable" line like the Rogues is Jolida. And yes, the tubed pre + SS amp is a very common occurence.

Good luck.
This has all been instructive for me. I appreciate all of the input. I accept the responsibility of having to make my own choices based upon my own ears & my own criteria. The process itself is fun. Thanks.
 
A

Ampdog

Audioholic
As a designer of both tube and ss amplifiers, I am somewhat surprised that the main reason for the preference of tube amplifiers by some seems to have gone adrift. That is the sometimes inherent nature of ss amplifiers to generate listener fatigue because of poor distortion performance. Not to go too technical here (it is not the subject, as well as that it has been extensively dealt with elsewhere): One all too often is presented with the weary old spec of 0,001% thd, saying nothing about the nature (spectral content) of the distortion products, thus in reality saying just about nothing at all.

I am not too conversant with many commercial products, but have too often seen poor high order harmonic performance, which is one of the single greatest problems with many ss amplifiers. That to my mind is the reason for a host of favourable phrases used to describe tube amplifier performance in comparisons. (Tube amplifiers, even middle-of-the-road-designs, do not easily develop high order harmonic distortion.) Apart from aesthetic/cult reasons, people seem to put up with the greater cost and bother in upkeep of tube designs because of the lack of listener fatigue phenomenon.

Having said that, it is rather problematic to quote preference of tube amplifier A to ss amplifier B or vice versa, in support of general preference of either type. There are good and poor examples of both modes, and the customer who has to make a decision based on (subjective) comment alone has my sympathy. A thorough analysis only of amplifiers, as is sometimes seen in e.g. Stereophile, might reveal purchase preference. Listening is fine, but I am sceptical of the chances of being able to judge well only from a limited period of listening in a dealer's "auditorium".
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Why are they nonsense? Is it because of teh maintenance? What maintenance had to be done other than changing a tube? :confused:
Voltages are high in tube amps. This leads to fair bit of capacitor failure. A the tubes age, to keep optimal performance here is need for re biasing.
 
mtrycrafts

mtrycrafts

Seriously, I have no life.
As a designer of both tube and ss amplifiers, I am somewhat surprised that the main reason for the preference of tube amplifiers by some seems to have gone adrift. That is the sometimes inherent nature of ss amplifiers to generate listener fatigue because of poor distortion performance. Not to go too technical here (it is not the subject, as well as that it has been extensively dealt with elsewhere): One all too often is presented with the weary old spec of 0,001% thd, saying nothing about the nature (spectral content) of the distortion products, thus in reality saying just about nothing at all.

I am not too conversant with many commercial products, but have too often seen poor high order harmonic performance, which is one of the single greatest problems with many ss amplifiers. That to my mind is the reason for a host of favourable phrases used to describe tube amplifier performance in comparisons. (Tube amplifiers, even middle-of-the-road-designs, do not easily develop high order harmonic distortion.) Apart from aesthetic/cult reasons, people seem to put up with the greater cost and bother in upkeep of tube designs because of the lack of listener fatigue phenomenon.

Having said that, it is rather problematic to quote preference of tube amplifier A to ss amplifier B or vice versa, in support of general preference of either type. There are good and poor examples of both modes, and the customer who has to make a decision based on (subjective) comment alone has my sympathy. A thorough analysis only of amplifiers, as is sometimes seen in e.g. Stereophile, might reveal purchase preference. Listening is fine, but I am sceptical of the chances of being able to judge well only from a limited period of listening in a dealer's "auditorium".

Interestingly, Axiom experimented with audibility of distortion with music at various frequencies.
http://www.axiomaudio.com/distortion.html#

If music masks even the high frequency distortions below 1%, how would odd order harmonics as vanishingly low level be audible with music?

I question the claim of 'listener fatigue' as perhaps being just anecdotal, not supported by controlled experimentation?
 
WmAx

WmAx

Audioholic Samurai
I am not too conversant with many commercial products, but have too often seen poor high order harmonic performance, which is one of the single greatest problems with many ss amplifiers. That to my mind is the reason for a host of favourable phrases used to describe tube amplifier performance in comparisons. (Tube amplifiers, even middle-of-the-road-designs, do not easily develop high order harmonic distortion.)
The evidence suggests that such phrases are based on personal bias without blinded and level matched tests and/or highly flawed comparison(high output impedance output stage compared with low output impedance stage without appropriate series resistance added to the low output impedance device to closer match the final amplitude response into the same speaker load), not on any distortion performance difference. Most SS AB class devices have excellent distortion performance today, and it is pretty rare for one to feature high order harmonics at any level that is audibly relevant for music when operating amplifiers below their clipping point. However, the most 'prized' tub amps, SETs, can easily have harmonic distortion that is within known audible levels(3-5% THD in normal operating range is not unheard of).

-Chris
 
B

B3Nut

Audioholic
I've often questioned the blaming of alleged "bad sound" on SS amplifiers' distortion spectra when measured THD levels across the audio band for nearly every SS amplifier made in the last 20 years is well beneath any known threshold of audibility. As long as both THD and TIM are controlled, S/N ratio is adequately high, and the freq. response is flat into the speaker load, what possible mechanism could there be (at matched, non-clipping levels of course) to give the amplifier any so-called "signature" at all? I've heard no end of voodoo (and used to spout more than a little of it myself!) from subjectivist rags and online fora, but nothing from real engineers who hold real sheepskins in the audio disciplines.

Todd in Cheesecurdistan, reformed subjectivist (oh no, he's turning into a meter-reader! He's lost! oh noes! :D )
 
F

fmw

Audioholic Ninja
Don't kid yourself, B3. Plenty of engineers have written white papers trying to explain how they can hear things subjectively without hearing them objectively. Placebo effect affects people of every profession.
 
dorokusai

dorokusai

Full Audioholic
Voltages are high in tube amps. This leads to fair bit of capacitor failure. A the tubes age, to keep optimal performance here is need for re biasing.
Plate voltages vary of course but I haven't experienced a high failure rate in regards to capacitors in my travels....and I've owned a boatload of tube gear. I ran a 1958 Telefunken Hymnus radio console in my carport for two years with no issues....and that puppy was O L D.

Tube bias is affected by a host of things and unless it's an auto-biasing circuit, it's the nature of the tube beast to re-bias. They have a life expectancy and some will last longer than others.

I've seen amps, the ASL Wave 20 for example, that you have to practically bias everytime you listen to them BUT the circuit design isn't that great in the first place. It varies from gear to gear, who knows, YMMV.

Tubes are like vinyl, you have to know what you're getting into or stick with the shiny stuff.

Mark
Polk Audio CS
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Plate voltages vary of course but I haven't experienced a high failure rate in regards to capacitors in my travels....and I've owned a boatload of tube gear. I ran a 1958 Telefunken Hymnus radio console in my carport for two years with no issues....and that puppy was O L D.

Tube bias is affected by a host of things and unless it's an auto-biasing circuit, it's the nature of the tube beast to re-bias. They have a life expectancy and some will last longer than others.

I've seen amps, the ASL Wave 20 for example, that you have to practically bias everytime you listen to them BUT the circuit design isn't that great in the first place. It varies from gear to gear, who knows, YMMV.

Tubes are like vinyl, you have to know what you're getting into or stick with the shiny stuff.

Mark
Polk Audio CS
That may be because I grew up in Gt. Britain where we had to contend with Hunt's capacitors! Any way I have been a great fan of Peter Walker's class C feed forward current dumping amps.
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
TLS - Are you an Audio Express subscriber?
Yes, I have been since the early eighties when it was Speaker Builder and Audio Amateur.

Here is link to my rig. I see you are part of the Polk organization. I roll my own speakers.
 
dorokusai

dorokusai

Full Audioholic
It felt like you were old school from the reply....excellent publication to this day. Drop me a line anytime as I would be interested in your DIY work in loudspeakers.

Mark
 
dorokusai

dorokusai

Full Audioholic
Great pics, great room. You have a disease and it starts with the letter A.

No, they don't have anything crazy like that at HQ but you might be suprised at what they do have. There's only one formal listening room, everything is a lab and work in progress. If you're ever in the area, drop me a line.

Is it ok if I link those pics in a thread at our homepage? Stop by sometime.

Mark
 
TLS Guy

TLS Guy

Audioholic Jedi
Great pics, great room. You have a disease and it starts with the letter A.

No, they don't have anything crazy like that at HQ but you might be suprised at what they do have. There's only one formal listening room, everything is a lab and work in progress. If you're ever in the area, drop me a line.

Is it ok if I link those pics in a thread at our homepage? Stop by sometime.

Mark
By all means use a link. I have never been to Maryland by the way.
 
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