I'm sick of paying taxes..

[herbu]

I don't subscribe to the "fair share" mentality

Not only don't subscribe, but don't understand. Exactly how much is your fair share of something somebody else worked for?

 

[Irvrobinson]

Not only don't subscribe, but don't understand. Exactly how much is your fair share of something somebody else worked for?

Bingo, you nailed it. The answer is exactly zero. There is no such thing as a fair share. A fair share is what thieves talk about.

Nonetheless, we need government and safety nets, and someone needs to pay for all of that. As it is the US has a very progressive tax system, but then we let our politicians continually screw it up with loopholes for every special interest group who can amass enough support or give enough money to reelection campaigns. Everyone responds with indignation at the relatively lower tax rates that Warren Buffet or Mitt Romney pays, and then some new tax gets passed with a $250K income floor, and some guy with a special skill or knowledge and trained for years and works sixty or more hours per week gets nailed and Buffet still mostly skirts it.

Just as an interesting aside, did you know that ol' Warren, the guy who laments that his secretary pays a higher tax rate than he does, only pays himself $100K per year in salary? You know, the part of his income that's FICA taxed. That's right, the man doesn't even hit the Social Security taxing cap. Nonetheless, in 2010 he revealed that his total income was $62M, and he paid an overall 17.4% federal income tax rate. He actually paid about $7M in federal income taxes, not counting FICA and Medicare taxes.

Did Warren Buffet pay his fair share in 2010?

 

[Rickster71]

I have no problem paying for roads and other infrastructure.
It's the ridiculous unending waste that I resent paying for:
Coburn shows what $28 billion in government waste looks like - CNN.com

Fort Hood shooter paycheck -- $52,952
Coburn said Maj. Nadal Hasan, convicted of killing 13 people in a mass shooting at Fort Hood Army base in Texas in 2009 collected more than $278,000 in military benefits since the massacre.
A military jury rendered a guilty verdict last summer, but he continued to be compensated until then.
Army's response: The Army defended the payments, noting that they stopped once Hasan was convicted per military law.
"He is innocent until proven guilty," Army spokesman Troy Rolan, said. "It's the same concept it is in the military as it is for civilians."

OK, the second one is money well spent.
Study: Wives should calm down -- $325,525
Coburn points to a National Institutes of Health study that cost more than $300,000 to find that the "happiest" marriages "were the ones in which the wives were able to calm down quickly" during conflict, the researcher in the report found.


This list goes to 50, here are a few:
50 Examples of Government Waste

1. The federal government made at least $72 billion in improper payments in 2008.[1]
2. Washington spends $92 billion on corporate welfare (excluding TARP) versus $71 billion on homeland security.[2]
3. Washington spends $25 billion annually maintaining unused or vacant federal properties.[3]
4. Government auditors spent the past five years examining all federal programs and found that 22 percent of them -- costing taxpayers a total of $123 billion annually -- fail to show any positive impact on the populations they serve.[4]
5. The Congressional Budget Office published a "Budget Options" series identifying more than $100 billion in potential spending cuts.[5]
6. Examples from multiple Government Accountability Office (GAO) reports of wasteful duplication include 342 economic development programs; 130 programs serving the disabled; 130 programs serving at-risk youth; 90 early childhood development programs; 75 programs funding international education, cultural, and training exchange activities; and 72 safe water programs.[6]
7. Washington will spend $2.6 million training Chinese prostitutes to drink more responsibly on the job.[7]
8. A GAO audit classified nearly half of all purchases on government credit cards as improper, fraudulent, or embezzled. Examples of taxpayer-funded purchases include gambling, mortgage payments, liquor, lingerie, iPods, Xboxes, jewelry, Internet dating services, and Hawaiian vacations. In one extraordinary example, the Postal Service spent $13,500 on one dinner at a Ruth's Chris Steakhouse, including "over 200 appetizers and over $3,000 of alcohol, including more than 40 bottles of wine costing more than $50 each and brand-name liquor such as Courvoisier, Belvedere and Johnny Walker Gold." The 81 guests consumed an average of $167 worth of food and drink apiece.[8]
9. Federal agencies are delinquent on nearly 20 percent of employee travel charge cards, costing taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars annually.[9]
10. The Securities and Exchange Commission spent $3.9 million rearranging desks and offices at its Washington, D.C., headquarters.[10]
11. The Pentagon recently spent $998,798 shipping two 19-cent washers from South Carolina to Texas and $293,451 sending an 89-cent washer from South Carolina to Florida.[11]
12. Over half of all farm subsidies go to commercial farms, which report average household incomes of $200,000.[12]
13. Health care fraud is estimated to cost taxpayers more than $60 billion annually.[13]

 

[Adam]

The Pentagon recently spent $998,798 shipping two 19-cent washers from South Carolina to Texas and $293,451 sending an 89-cent washer from South Carolina to Florida.

Makes me think of that line from Independence Day: "You don't actually think they spend $20,000 on a hammer, $30,000 on a toilet seat, do you?"

 

[ImcLoud]

I pay a lot of taxes, but like grand pa used to say "it is what it is". Sure its discouraging to see where some of the money goes, but "it is what it is"...


I had a "section 8" tenant a few years back, I knew his father very well, the kid came from a good family but got mixed up with drugs as a teenager and never recovered, never worked a day in his life, got together with a girl that had similar interests and had 3 kids, she worked some min wage stuff here and there {coffee shops and waitress}. I let them rent an apartment because his father asked me to and we are friends {not supposed to say this but I try to stay clear of this situation}....

So the apartment was a 3 bedroom third floor walk up, 5 units in the building, they were the first band of tenants since I remodeled the entire place, it's an older building, but when we finished it was gorgeous, 1935 built victorian, started life as a childrens doctors home, it was a 4 bedroom single family, but they had a guest wing on one side and on the other side a doctors office. It was vacant for 8 years before I scooped it up, I spent a half million dollars and redid everything, turned it into 5 suites each with a garage bay and storage bay the smallest apartment being 980sq ft, the entire building is over 6000 not counting the detached 6 car garage {the heating and mechanical room is in the garage all piped under ground}. Anyway long story short the place came magazine worthy, 5 separate utility services, central a/c, granite counters, tile and wood floors, new windows, siding, driveway, on and on...

So they rented the least expensive unit, $1380 a month everything included {normal practice for a multi family unit this large is to have 1 of the apartments all inclusive since you need to have a "main" service anyway for driveway, basement, and hallway lights, so its smartest to make this on the smallest unit on the highest floor, heat rises}...

OK, now I already told you a little bit about their financial situation... The first and security was $2780, the section 8 office paid $1800 of it and his father paid the rest. Now their rent is $1380, they get section 8 so its pretty much free, they need to kick in $191 per month. The girlfriend makes around $200 a week at her DandD job, but pockets around the same amount in tips per week {uncle sam doesn't know about. She gets ssi for $1200 a month and he gets the same $1200 per month, as well one of their children was born addicted to drugs and has health problems, so he gets ssi of some sort also but it was only around $600 a month. They also get cash from welfare {this moved around, he told me they lowered it to $400 from $600 and then gave some back ect..}, but they got over $600 in food stamps too so we will call that $1000 from welfare, she had young children so also used to get something called WIC, which was just vouchers for food and I am not sure if that is privately founded or not? but we wont count that and we won't count the free medical and funds they received from selling there medication....

If you are keeping track that is around $5500 a month!!! they lived there for 10 months before problems with other tenants forced me to evict them. His father was very good about it and made sure it went smooth because the kids first response was "sue me, you will never get us out" which would have been partly true if the father didn't set him straight for me, and get him to move out....

BUT they destroyed the place, cabinets falling apart, holes in walls, cracked windows, FILTH, it cost me $4000 to fix it back up, but guess who paid for that ---- Section 8 incurred some of the costs... What really made me start doing the math was something his father told me when they owed me a few months of the $200 co pay.. He said "she is getting her income tax so will have the money to catch up this week" I said she owes $900 or so , how much does she get from income tax" he said "oh she gets like $5500" I was like "WHAT"? she doesn't make $5500 a year, he explained eic and how they give you how ever much a for every kid you have if you make less than x amount per year!!!!! I pay $100K a year in taxes and work every day all day and get no help from any agencies all year round, pay for my kids to go to private schools, pay for my streets to be plowed ever year, pay to drop my garbage off {we live in a small town}, pay pay pay, and these people take take take and get a little more for having a handful of kids, that {hopefully not} but probably will do the same as them....

I'm going to stop here, but the moral of the story is you can be a drug addict and while that alone wont get you ssi, the side effects of being an addict will, so the tax payers will take care of you, make under $1100 per month and get ssi, welfare, section 8, food stamps, medical, drugs {they were both getting methadone which is like prescription heroin}, a free cell phone {that is another one i didn't mention the government gave them cell phones, lol}..... I ran the figures with him and his father one day and we figured out that their income was close to $100K per year after their ssi {3 of them getting it because of the sick child}, income tax, welfare, ect ect ect and he never worked a day, no exaggeration not a day in his life was he on the books at a job...

That is the trouble but, if you ever took away all the free money and health coverage, the country would not be a nice place to be, there would be a lot of trouble, so we are kind of paying to keep the people like that at bay, is it fair, I don't know..

A side note about the above kid, his father no longer talks to him, because of an incident that happened on a holiday dinner with some jewelry from his mothers dresser, but he used to always say "what did I do wrong, where did I go wrong" and from what I see he was a good father, and I always say "if you ever figure it out, please let me know rite away because I am doing about the same as you did with your kids with mine, and it will kill me to see them turn out that way"....

"IT is what it is"...

 

[Pyrrho]

Not only don't subscribe, but don't understand. Exactly how much is your fair share of something somebody else worked for?

The thing is, the government has set up the possibility of you making the money. Tell us please, did you use roads when making your money? Did you pay for them, or were they already there for you (or anyone who uses your goods or services) to use? The government has also set things up to get drinkable water to people, and electricity to them. Did you use those things, or did you build them yourself before making whatever you worked for? There are countless other things, like police who have protected your property from others simply taking it from you; what was that worth? Would you have been able to get the stuff you have if you had not had an education, which the government provides? (Even if you did not attend a federally funded school, others have who have built the infrastructure that you use.) The list goes on and on. Fire departments, public health initiatives (what do you think your polio vaccination was worth?), etc., etc.

The simple fact is, NO ONE has earned what they have without help from others. And that help from others has been essential for them getting what they have; they would not have what they have were it not for outside help. So, the question is, how much was that extra help worth?

Anyone who imagines that they made everything they have from nothing, with no help from others, is a delusional idiot.

 

[Irvrobinson]

The thing is, the government has set up the possibility of you making the money. Tell us please, did you use roads when making your money? Did you pay for them, or were they already there for you (or anyone who uses your goods or services) to use? The government has also set things up to get drinkable water to people, and electricity to them. Did you use those things, or did you build them yourself before making whatever you worked for? There are countless other things, like police who have protected your property from others simply taking it from you; what was that worth? Would you have been able to get the stuff you have if you had not had an education, which the government provides? (Even if you did not attend a federally funded school, others have who have built the infrastructure that you use.) The list goes on and on. Fire departments, public health initiatives (what do you think your polio vaccination was worth?), etc., etc.

The simple fact is, NO ONE has earned what they have without help from others. And that help from others has been essential for them getting what they have; they would not have what they have were it not for outside help. So, the question is, how much was that extra help worth?

Anyone who imagines that they made everything they have from nothing, with no help from others, is a delusional idiot.

You're correct, only an idiot would deny benefitting from public infrastructure and the rule of law, but IMO it has absolutely nothing to do with one's "fair share". The entire notion of a "fair share" is an in-vogue excuse for making someone else pay for the cost of government and to support those who cannot or choose not to support themselves. Funny how the someone else is always a voting minority.

 

[ImcLoud]

The thing is, the government has set up the possibility of you making the money. Tell us please, did you use roads when making your money? Did you pay for them, or were they already there for you (or anyone who uses your goods or services) to use? The government has also set things up to get drinkable water to people, and electricity to them. Did you use those things, or did you build them yourself before making whatever you worked for? There are countless other things, like police who have protected your property from others simply taking it from you; what was that worth? Would you have been able to get the stuff you have if you had not had an education, which the government provides? (Even if you did not attend a federally funded school, others have who have built the infrastructure that you use.) The list goes on and on. Fire departments, public health initiatives (what do you think your polio vaccination was worth?), etc., etc.

The simple fact is, NO ONE has earned what they have without help from others. And that help from others has been essential for them getting what they have; they would not have what they have were it not for outside help. So, the question is, how much was that extra help worth?

Anyone who imagines that they made everything they have from nothing, with no help from others, is a delusional idiot.

Wasn't Polia vaccine handled by the NIPF which was driven by the march of dimes {which is private donation founded}? and I am not sure if I am remembering correctly but didn't the government screw it all up, they were to charge $6 for each {back then $6 wasn't just enough for 2 coffees like today}... Anyway its been years since I read about it and Im not sure if I remember it correctly but I know it was some how the governments fault and some big conspiracy... So through out history its private companies, building rail roads, streets, ect. They take our money and pay these companies to do the work and if you watch the news you see they don't do it for "free" political action committee money, never mind all the illegal payoffs and favors for friends... Where there is power there is corruption, and its not a great system, but it gets us by, I guess..

The government does "organize" a lot of things for us, and I am in no way anti government, but don't twist it up too much, around here they hire cardi brothers and other huge corporations to build the roads, are electric is powered by National grid {private even though the name sounds the contrary}, sewer is done privately, water is private {I have a well and septic, so mine is definitely private}

 

[markw]

Nonetheless, we need government and safety nets, and someone needs to pay for all of that.

A safety net is one thing. A hammock to lounge in for generations is another thing entirely.

 

[ImcLoud]

Theres nothing to worry about, it will never catch up to us... Live beyond your means and die in debt, the american way... its the land of the free, free healthcare, free shelter, free money, free drugs, free food... thats what they meant rite?

 

[herbu]

...roads...water...electricity...police...education...fire departments...polio vaccination...

Yes my friend, you are right. I use(ed) and benefit from all these things. And I pay taxes every year to help fund them. The more I make, the higher % I pay.

In any society there will be those who deposit, and those who withdraw. I think most reasonable people accept and support that. As withdrawals increase, the amount of deposits must increase. There comes a point when the necessity of those withdrawals comes into question. Our society is now at that point.

Then there is the question of fairness. If I don't think the wage you offer for a particular job is fair, I shouldn't accept the job. If I don't have the education or skills for a better job, I should take whatever job(s) I can while I improve my value to an employer, or at least try to assure my children are better prepared... (like our parents and grandparents did).

We can debate ad nauseum what wages are fair, or what withdrawals are fair. I think we can agree that a society cannot perpetually support everyone who has the ability to improve their lot, but simply choses not to. And if we can agree on that, then we're back to deciding where we draw the line. Maybe we draw the line at cable TV, or a new flatscreen, or foodstamps for legal pot in Colorado. I don't know, but some things I see make me wonder.

 

[herbu]

More thoughts...

Perhaps the most controversial but basic question in all of this is, Do the recepients of the withdrawals have any obligation? I think if a person is in a "disadvantaged" position thru no fault of their own, I am willing and happy to help. However, if a person finds themself in such a position due to bad decisions they made, then that person does have obligations to fulfill before I'm willing to help. It is this group to which I'll refer now.

I like the idea of matching funds, sort of like businesses do for your 401K. If you put yourself in a bad situation, you must put forth some effort toward getting out of it. Rather than a freebie check from the community kitty, show us your taxable income every month and we'll give you some kind of match up to a point. You work, we help. You don't work, we don't help. If all you can get is a minimum wage job, take it and we'll help. If you refuse it and choose instead to protest that the wage is not "fair", we don't help.

If you had/have the same access as I to public schools, military schools, state colleges, grants, loans, etc... but chose not to take advantage of them, I have no obligation to support you. If you had/have the same access as I to an entry level position with the opportunity to compete and work your way up the ladder, but choose not to take it, I have no obligation to support you.

Charity still exists for these folks, and the US is the most charitable society in the world. Let every capable person decide who is deserving of their charity. But I don't like being compelled to support anybody who is able, but makes no effort to help themselves.

 

[Adam]

This might have already been mentioned and I missed it, but there's also the concept that your wages are higher because of taxes. In other words, employers increase your wage to at least partially offset the taxes that you have to pay. Employers (ignoring illegal activities) need to entice workers to join a company and then stay there, and wages are part of that equation.

My dad said once, and I can't dispute it, that this country runs on taxes. Makes sense to me - taxes keep money flowing around.

 

[markw]

The thing is, the government has set up the possibility of you making the money. Tell us please, did you use roads when making your money? Did you pay for them, or were they already there for you (or anyone who uses your goods or services) to use? The government has also set things up to get drinkable water to people, and electricity to them. Did you use those things, or did you build them yourself before making whatever you worked for? There are countless other things, like police who have protected your property from others simply taking it from you; what was that worth? Would you have been able to get the stuff you have if you had not had an education, which the government provides? (Even if you did not attend a federally funded school, others have who have built the infrastructure that you use.) The list goes on and on. Fire departments, public health initiatives (what do you think your polio vaccination was worth?), etc., etc.

The simple fact is, NO ONE has earned what they have without help from others. And that help from others has been essential for them getting what they have; they would not have what they have were it not for outside help. So, the question is, how much was that extra help worth?

Anyone who imagines that they made everything they have from nothing, with no help from others, is a delusional idiot.

the problem arises in that there are quite a few in this country who avail themselves of these services and have never contributed a dime towards them, and some have been taught how to do this from their parents, usually the mothers.

 

[psbfan9]

Here is a very enlightening article.

Gregg Easterbrook: "The King Of Sports" | The Diane Rehm Show from WAMU and NPR

 

[Adam]

I'm not quite sure how to fit this in, but it's along the lines of government helping out those who are in a challenging situation but who aren't free loaders. Growing up, my parents worked hard to give us a good home with a roof over our head and food on the table. But, it wasn't always easy for them. I still vividly remember the year when Santa brought me a ruler and a couple of magnets. That was probably the same year that we qualified for free government cheese. I think that we only got it once (I think it was a big block of cheese), and it wasn't very good...but it was nice that it was available. And we were thankful for it. Granted, we wouldn't have starved if it wasn't for that block of cheese, but there might have been other services that my parents used that I wasn't aware of. Tax breaks, for example.

From an economic rather than humanitarian standpoint, it makes compete sense to help out people who are temporarily in economic trouble. After all, those same people have future earning potential and are likely to contribute to the economic health of the country in the future. My family wasn't a tax-paying power house back in the 70's, but my parents, brothers and I have gone on to pay a good chunk of cash into the system, so the government got a return on its investment with us.

EDIT: So that this doesn't come across as a sob story , I had a good childhood. We didn't have a lot of possessions (which is likely why I became such a pack rat), but I don't think that I ever felt in need. My parents did an outstanding job of making a house a home. Oh, and we did have some really nice Christmases, too.

 

[Alex2507]

Colorado has free pot?

 

[ImcLoud]

that cheese was probably from a privately funded charity, lol.. I remember reading an article that showed how it was made, all the scraps and "not good for resale" cheese "product" was mixed with emulsifiers and cut into blocks, then packaged and labelled Government, lol... Still better than no cheese I guess..

Adam, your point is what worries me about this country, my parents struggled and fought to make me and my siblings a a home, welfare was an option but not one they would take advantage of if it wasn't absolutely necessary. It seems to me a lot of people collecting from welfare and Social security are able to work, but were raised not to... So they will not be breeding a return, but more negatives.... My parents bought a house for $22K and 30 years later it was worth $300K {after additions and up keep of course}, so it was always there topull equity from if needed and as a security cushion and shelter it provided for years.... Now you buy a home for $400K and in 30 years you will be lucky to see it cover the rate of inflation for half its term...

Sure the economy has had its trouble in the past, but the recent trouble is scary and I don't see going on giving and giving as a viable option never mind, giving more and more to more and more, when there is no "MORE"...

 

[Irvrobinson]

"Last edited by itschris; 01-24-2014 at 08:15 AM. Reason: I'm in a bad mood and talking about taxes is just going to regress into arguing and more pissing and moaning."

Excellent prediction!

 

[Pyrrho]

I'm not quite sure how to fit this in, but it's along the lines of government helping out those who are in a challenging situation but who aren't free loaders. Growing up, my parents worked hard to give us a good home with a roof over our head and food on the table. But, it wasn't always easy for them. I still vividly remember the year when Santa brought me a ruler and a couple of magnets. That was probably the same year that we qualified for free government cheese. I think that we only got it once (I think it was a big block of cheese), and it wasn't very good...but it was nice that it was available. And we were thankful for it. Granted, we wouldn't have starved if it wasn't for that block of cheese, but there might have been other services that my parents used that I wasn't aware of. Tax breaks, for example.

From an economic rather than humanitarian standpoint, it makes compete sense to help out people who are temporarily in economic trouble. After all, those same people have future earning potential and are likely to contribute to the economic health of the country in the future. My family wasn't a tax-paying power house back in the 70's, but my parents, brothers and I have gone on to pay a good chunk of cash into the system, so the government got a return on its investment with us.

EDIT: So that this doesn't come across as a sob story , I had a good childhood. We didn't have a lot of possessions (which is likely why I became such a pack rat), but I don't think that I ever felt in need. My parents did an outstanding job of making a house a home. Oh, and we did have some really nice Christmases, too.

The vast majority of people who get such benefits only do so temporarily. And you are right, it is generally a good investment, as you went on to pay much more in taxes than that cheese was worth.

Of course, there are always people who play the system and try to get what they can. But that idea applies to the rich at least as much as the poor, and with more significant results when some rich person takes advantage of the system. After all, when a rich person weasels out of paying as much as middle class people, we are generally talking about a lot of money, not the little bit that some poor person might game from the system. So if we are going to be realistic about what matters most, it is the rich who cheat, not the poor, that makes the most difference. But for some strange reason, many people ignore them and just focus on the poor who game the system.